The Purpose of the Law

[justbyfaith]

@Blood Bought 1953, I would ask you what you make of the following scriptures:

Isa 8:16, Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Isa 8:20, To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Brakelite]

Because of the sin nature, the law was given to guide them, but they had to keep it in their own strength.

No, totally wrong. You think God is stupid? Deliberately confusing? Israel did not have to keep the commandments in their own strength. They chose to, and failed. Have you forgotten one of the principle premises of godly living, the just shall live by faith?
KJV Exodus 24
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
Instead of humbly trusting in Good to accomplish His promises, Israel related the mistake made by so many before them, and so many since. We will do things our way.
But God says, not by might, not by power, but by My Spirit...

KJV Jeremiah 9
23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
How many times did Israel have to be reminded that their strength comes from God?

It is extremely "warranted." There is a big difference in the Old and New Covenants. The Old was of the flesh, and the New is of the Spirit.

You are very confused. The mistakes and wrong thinking throughout both testament times was if the flesh/carnal... The true way of worship and obedience though both testament times was by the Spirit. Salvation since the time of Adam had been by grace. The theory that Israel were saved by obedience to the law is a lie.

The Ten Commandments and all the other laws under the Old Covenant.

So you agree that even the ten commandments... The ones concerning murder, adultery, theft, lying, lust, idolatry, blasphemy, dishonoring the Sabbath, disrespecting parents etc, all gone?

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, totally wrong. You think God is stupid? Deliberately confusing? Israel did not have to keep the commandments in their own strength. They chose to, and failed. Have you forgotten one of the principle premises of godly living, the just shall live by faith?

God wanted them to keep the law didn't He? Even those who "chose to" failed because of their sin nature, IOW their own strength. You're arguing over nothing but semantics.

You are very confused. The mistakes and wrong thinking throughout both testament times was if the flesh/carnal... The true way of worship and obedience though both testament times was by the Spirit. Salvation since the time of Adam had been by grace. The theory that Israel were saved by obedience to the law is a lie.

The Israelites were not filled with the Spirit, so the law was there to guard them, but as you said correctly, they failed. Why? Because of the sin in their nature, meaning they had not been born again by the SPIRIT. Only Christians have the Spirit (and the kings and prophets who were anointed in the OT), and the old sin nature has died. We are dead to sin, and not in the old carnal nature Paul calls the flesh in Romans 8:9. Those Christians who still willfully sin are not born again, and thus "do not belong to Christ."

So you agree that even the ten commandments... The ones concerning murder, adultery, theft, lying, lust, idolatry, blasphemy, dishonoring the Sabbath, disrespecting parents etc, all gone?

Yes, they were replaced with stronger commandments, but are easier to keep because of the infilling of God in our born again nature that partakes of the divine nature. Those who keep the commandments of the New Covenant cannot murder, steal, bear false witness, commit adultery, or any other commandment because of their new nature that hates those things.

 

[Brakelite]

The Old laws could not make anyone actually righteous.

Ummmm, is anyone actually suggesting they could?

So you who favor the Old, what are the New Covenant laws? Do you even know?

When you say I favor they old, what do you mean exactly? I think that in your mind you are making a great many presumptions here. Jesus came to uphold the law and make it honourable. Are we not to walk in His steps? Do we do that by rejecting the very law He came to fulfill?
Many claim the law cannot be obeyed. In other words sin is our only and inevitable course to follow. It isn't a choice. We were made that way... Jesus didn't really overcome sin, and Paul was just kidding when he challenged, shall we sin that grace should abound? God forbid!
So you would, I would imagine, object to such a line of reasoning yes? I hope so. Maybe not. I don't know.
As to what the NT law is... It doesn't matter. Because whatever it is Christ in us, the hope of glory, can change us into the obedient servants we were created to be. Yes, by writing the law on our hearts. And yes, that promise though was only for Israel. Not the Israel in the middle east. God's people. You, me, the church. Wherever Jew or gentile, slave or free, man or woman. All one in Christ, and if you're in Christ, you are Abraham's seed... Israel. To whom belongs all the law and the covenants... Because God is a covenant keeping God. Yes, Israel broke the old covenant. How? They broke it the moment they asked Aaron to make that calf. And why did they do that? Because they wanted to do things their way. In their strength. Just like Abraham did with Ishmael's mother. Just like Adam did. They didn't believe God; they got impatient and tried to accomplish things themselves. And that's been the wrong road for all people for all times. Even today. But today there's a subtle change. Instead of trying to keep the law in their own strength, they claim that by believing God has reduced His standards to meet man's needs then all is well. The law is gone. All we need to do is love. Doing things their way... Again. Instead of faith it's presumption. No where in scripture does it say the law is done away with... No where in scripture does it say obedience is no longer essential... No where in scripture does it say that the just no longer live by faith by every word of God. Like @quietthinker said earlier, that blank page in your Bible between the OT and the NT could be torn out. The whole of scripture is the story of God's covenantal promises to give man land and descendants to populate it. From the garden of Eden to the new Earth. The NT changes nothing except one thing. The manner in which God revealed Himself. Today, His law, which is the foundational basis for Godly living, is now written on fleshly tables of the heart. But it isn't a different law. The Royal law (James 2:8-13) of love written on the heat is the same law of love that was written on tables cut from God's own Royal throne. The foundation of His Government.
Love for God... Love for neighbor... Upon which hang/rely/attach to... All the law and the prophets.

 

[justbyfaith]

No where in scripture does it say the law is done away with...

See Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18-19.

These passages show that there is no more condemnation coming from the law.

Then there is Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, and Romans 8:4;

passages that tell us that we are still governed by the law from the inside, as being written on fleshy tables of human hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3).

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ummmm, is anyone actually suggesting they could?

That is a statement of fact. So why do people want to hang on so desperately to something that couldn't make them righteous?

Jesus came to uphold the law and make it honourable.

No, Jesus came to take away the need for the law. Sin.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, they were replaced with stronger commandments, but are easier to keep because of the infilling of God in our born again nature that partakes of the divine nature. Those who keep the commandments of the New Covenant cannot murder, steal, bear false witness, commit adultery, or any other commandment because of their new nature that hates those things.

I agree with most of that, just the part where you say such was not available to Israel... For goodness sake God knew the Israel in their own strength couldn't obey... No-one can! So you don't think He gave them something so they didn't have to rely on themselves? Again, what does the scripture say in the OT... THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH! But faith in what? What did Good give Israel because of transgressions? He gave them the law. Not the law of ten commandments... Those had been around since before creation (remember Satan was a murderer from the beginning) ... The law of the sanctuary services, the yearly sacrificial and ritual ceremonial laws which had a specific purpose and intent, which Israel turned into a cheap "get out of jail free card" grazing in the back paddock. They did not allow those laws and rituals and ceremonies to do the work in the hearts that Good designed them for. To create an aversion to sin. To awaken their hearts to their power of choice. They could choose to do good, and not evil. God reminded them if this constantly throughout their tenure until Christ came, sending them prophets and judges calling them to choose wisely and choose the good and not the bad... But Israel refused. Remember what Jesus said...
KJV Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The Israelites were not filled with the Spirit, so the law was there to guard them, but as you said correctly, they failed. Why? Because of the sin in their nature, meaning they had not been born again by the SPIRIT. Only Christians have the Spirit (and the kings and prophets who were anointed in the OT), and the old sin nature has died. We are dead to sin, and not in the old carnal nature Paul calls the flesh in Romans 8:9. Those Christians who still willfully sin are not born again, and thus "do not belong to Christ."

I really do get the impression that Christians today are no different from Adam and Eve after the fall. Looking for excuses, and ultimately blaming God for all their troubles. Woe is us poor sinners unable to stop! Woe is us who can't obey God's commandments because they're too tough! So they think it's God's fault for having commandments to hard to obey, then correcting His own mistake by doing away with them altogether... And they call this grace!!!
So little understanding of the character of God and little appreciation of the gospel and it's power.

 

[Brakelite]

See Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18-19.

These passages show that there is no more condemnation coming from the law.

Then there is Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, and Romans 8:4;

passages that tell us that we are still governed by the law from the inside, as being written on fleshy tables of human hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3).

Are you sure all those scriptures are talking about the same law? Like I asked before... Which law are we talking about when we write scripture reading the law? We need to be specific.

 

[Brakelite]

So why do people want to hang on so desperately to something that couldn't make them righteous?

Please quote someone... Anyone... Claiming the law can make someone... Anyone... Righteous.

No, Jesus came to take away the need for the law. Sin.

See, like I said, you are confused. First, what law was given because of sin? Was there sin before Sinai? Before the flood? Before the garden of Eden??? Which came first. The law, or the transgression of the law?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I agree with most of that, just the part where you say such was not available to Israel... For goodness sake God knew the Israel in their own strength couldn't obey... No-one can! So you don't think He gave them something so they didn't have to rely on themselves?

No, He didn't. That is why He overlooked their sins. Romans 3:25

 

[CharismaticLady]

First, what law was given because of sin?

The law was given because of transgressions. It is only when there is no law that those same sins are overlooked, but they are still sins. Otherwise the flood was unjust. And Galatians 3 is meaningless.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made

When you see these contradictory verses to your view, what needs to change? The Word of God, or your understanding?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Please quote someone... Anyone... Claiming the law can make someone... Anyone... Righteous.

The purpose of the Law was to show Israel what righteousness was, so that they could do it

...

See, like I said, you are confused. First, what law was given because of sin? Was there sin before Sinai? Before the flood? Before the garden of Eden??? Which came first. The law, or the transgression of the law?

Transgressions and sins are the same thing.

The law of the Spirit of life in CHRIST has freed me from the law of sin and death - the Ten Commandments.

 

[Giuliano]

Are you sure all those scriptures are talking about the same law? Like I asked before... Which law are we talking about when we write scripture reading the law? We need to be specific.

Yes, that is the question.

What laws did Abraham keep? How was it possible for him to hear the Voice of God and obey?

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[mjrhealth]

See, like I said, you are confused. First, what law was given because of sin? Was there sin before Sinai? Before the flood? Before the garden of Eden??? Which came first. The law, or the transgression of the law?

Sim has being since Adam, the Law came with Moses. The law is not of faith it is of works, so are you earning your way to heaven.
'
Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

And again

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

 

[bbyrd009]

The law of the Spirit of life in CHRIST has freed me from the law of sin and death - the Ten Commandments.

well, so you say anyway, but wadr prolly not.
"Decalogue" does not = "the law of sin and death" imo, men added that i guess

 

[Brakelite]

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was

what law????

 

[Brakelite]

...



Transgressions and sins are the same thing.

The law of the Spirit of life in CHRIST has freed me from the law of sin and death - the Ten Commandments.

You are still confused and not answering my question... Which law? What came first... Sin or the law? And which law?

 

[Brakelite]

Sim has being since Adam, the Law came with Moses. The law is not of faith it is of works, so are you earning your way to heaven.

What law was there in Adams time? What is the law of Moses... What is the law of God? Are they the same, and if not, what's the difference? And what presumption is this that you claim to know my heart?

 

[bbyrd009]

yall lawyas is badly in need of some Snoop Dogg imo :)

 

[CharismaticLady]

what law????

The Old Covenant laws. Didn't you already ask that, or was that someone else. Anyway, asked and answered.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are still confused and not answering my question... Which law? What came first... Sin or the law? And which law?

Again, you are taking a part of Paul's teaching out of context. Study the first 8 chapters and learn, then you won't be so confused..