<<do you see how this is referring to the blood of Christ shed on the cross?>>ATP said:
In a general sense, yes.
<<Do you believe Jesus died on the cross out of love? >>
Yes.
The Queen Of Heaven Is A Devil!
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In a general sense, yes.
<<Do you believe Jesus died on the cross out of love? >>
Yes.
So considering the list in post 94, why would you believe the elect can lose their salvation and go to hell?JimParker said:
Considering the teaching of the entire Bible, not just your "proof texts", I conclude that a person can loose or abandon his salvation.ATP said:
OzSpen
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Jim,JimParker said:
I hope you mean lose and not loose salvation.
What biblical emphases would you give us to demonstrate that a person can lose or abandon salvation? I think that latter is called committing apostasy. :huh:
Oz
Yes. apostasy.OzSpen said:Jim,
I hope you mean lose and not loose salvation.
What biblical emphases would you give us to demonstrate that a person can lose or abandon salvation? I think that latter is called committing apostasy. :huh:
Oz
I have posted these often: (Emphasis obviously mine)
JN 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit,
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF ANYONE DOES NOT REMAIN IN ME, HE IS LIKE A BRANCH THAT IS THROWN AWAY AND WITHERS; SUCH BRANCHES ARE PICKED UP, THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.
RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER.
22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.
1CO 9:27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
1CO 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23 IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
HEB 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.
HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 IF THEY FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
PHP 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,
2PE 2: 20 IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD BY KNOWING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST AND ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN IT AND OVERCOME, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
EZE 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
But wouldn't that make God contradictory. It also says here we are sealed until redemption Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV.JimParker said:
Rom 11:28-29 NIV As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
<<But wouldn't that make God contradictory.>>ATP said:
No, it would make your conclusions incorrect.
The scriptures very clearly declare that anyone can lose or abandon or forfeit salvation.
God will not allow anything to take anyone from Him. But He will not forbid man to exercise his free will and to abandon his salvation or to abandon the pursuit of holiness and take up the pursuit of self-centeredness.
Our salvation is totally a matter of God's grace. We have the free will to humbly and joyfully accept His gracious gift of eternal life and we have the free will to reject or abandon it.
The "once saved, always saved" teaching is simply not the council of the entirety of scripture.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
When we are in a state of Grace we are sealed until redemption - we can forfeit it. Technically, I am still guaranteed to become a graduate scholar at my university, if I choose to continue until I graduate.
Salvation is not really a prize or possession or a legal agreement.....it is a state of being
Salvation is not really a prize or possession or a legal agreement.....it is a state of being
But Rom 8:35-39 says neither present nor future nor death can separate us from that gift.JimParker said:
You're comparing a master's degree to the blood of Christ? Wow.aspen said:
Rom 8:35-39 says neither present nor future nor death can separate us from that gift of salvation.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Of course, just like Paul compared it to 'running a race' and Jesus uses stories about people and daily activities. Do you read the Bible?ATP said:
I do read the Bible and if you read it too you would know that running the race is about the five crowns in heaven and not salvation.aspen said:
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
No, that's is NOT what it says.ATP said:
It says: "Who shall separate us from the LOVE of Christ?" God loves all of mankind and Christ died and rose again for all of mankind because of His perfect love.
But love and salvation are two very different things. God loves everyone but only those who love God will be saved.
Paul does not mention salvation in vs 35-39. You have inserted salvation into a passage that is not about salvation.
OzSpen
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ATP,ATP said:
In giving these verses, are you at least admitting that the Scriptures Jim Parker gave at #105 are correct so that the verses you gave are 'contradictory' to the verses Jim provided? That seems to be the conclusion from your statement.
Incorrect. These passages are not referring to all of mankind Jim. It's referring to God's elect SPECIFICALLY. The title of this section is called "More than Conquerors"....JimParker said:
Rom 8:31-39 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Incorrect again. Love and salvation go together like a car needs an engine. Jesus died on the cross out of love Jim.JimParker said:
This is incorrect also. Scripture tells us that nonbelievers are actually enemies of God, God's wrath remains on them Nahum 1:2 ESV, John 3:36 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV and they also have the spirit of the antichrist in them Prov 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, John 10:10 NIV, 2 Cor 4:4 NIV, Eph 2:1-2 NIV, Eph 6:12 NIV, 2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, 1 John 4:3 NIV, 2 John 1:7 NIV.JimParker said:
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
All of humanity make up the elect. God did not create some people to be forsaken and tortured for eternity. We were all created to be in relationship with Him and He loves all people no matter how much the fail to recognize it.
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