The Queen Of Heaven Is A Devil!

[OzSpen]

I responded to those verses in post 90.

I went back to read #90 and I'll pick up on one interaction between Jim Parker and you:

JimParker, on 24 May 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now HE HAS RECONCILED YOU BY CHRIST'S PHYSICAL BODY THROUGH DEATH TO PRESENT YOU HOLY IN HIS SIGHT, WITHOUT BLEMISH AND FREE FROM ACCUSATION-- 23[SIZE=18pt] IF[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH[/SIZE], established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

Your response was:

This passage is about losing blessings in Christ, not salvation. Without blemish and accusation precedes verse 23. Being accused is not about losing salvation. The devil accuses us every day, but who can bring a charge against God's elect? Rom 8:33 ESV. Also, if you notice here it says we have already been reconciled through the blood of Christ shed on the cross. His blood is permanent Jim...

Colossians 1:21-23 (ESV) is NOT about losing blessings in Christ and not salvation. How do I know? When I read the text, this is what I find that it is addressing:

• Those who were once alienated and hostile in the mind, doing evil deeds (v 21), i.e. those who were once unbelievers;
• They are now reconciled in his body of flesh through his death (v 22). This is addressing reconciliation through Christ's death. This is talking about salvation.
• These people are to be presented holy and blameless and above approach before him, i.e. salvation and sanctification.
• How will that happen? 'if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard' (v 23). It is only for those who 'continue in the faith'. Salvation (reconciliation) is only possible if one continues in the faith. This is the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints that is necessary to attain ultimate salvation. Do you understand the importance of 'continue in the faith' to attain salvation?

It is a failure not to see salvation in these verses. We have movement from alienation to reconciliation through Christ's death in the flesh to be presented blameless to God through Christ. These are core salvation principles.

Jim's challenge was spot on and yours missed the mark.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

All of humanity make up the elect.

Chapter and verse please!

 

[JimParker]

Incorrect. These passages are not referring to all of mankind Jim. It's referring to God's elect SPECIFICALLY. The title of this section is called "More than Conquerors"....

Rom 8:31-39 ESV What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Incorrect again. Love and salvation go together like a car needs an engine. Jesus died on the cross out of love Jim.


This is incorrect also. Scripture tells us that nonbelievers are actually enemies of God, God's wrath remains on them Nahum 1:2 ESV, John 3:36 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV and they also have the spirit of the antichrist in them Prov 8:34-36 NIV, John 8:44 NIV, John 10:10 NIV, 2 Cor 4:4 NIV, Eph 2:1-2 NIV, Eph 6:12 NIV, 2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV, 1 John 2:22 NIV, 1 John 4:3 NIV, 2 John 1:7 NIV.

God loves ALL mankind. (John 3:16)

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

<<The title of this section is called "More than Conquerors"....>>

That "title" is not scripture. Doctrine is not based on section titles that editors inserted to help you find the passage.

God's love and salvation do go together. But they are NOT the same thing.

God offers all mankind salvation because He loves all mankind. (John 3:16) God does not cease to love any person because that person does not respond in faith to the salvation offered. God continues to offer salvation to the most evil person up until his last breath if he will repent and believe.

And the passage says absolutely nothing about anyone's ability to exercise his free will to refuse or discard salvation. God never violates man's free will.

We are indeed more than conquerors IF we remain in Christ (John 15:6) and PROVIDED we continue in His kindness (John 15:22) and IF we continue in the faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel (Col 1:23) and if we continue to live our lives in Him (Col 2:6) and IF we are careful that we don't fall (Col 10:12) and IF we hold firmly to the end the confidence we had at first (Heb 3:14) and IF we do not fall away (Heb 6:6) and IF we make your calling and election sure and IF we do not become entangled and overcome by the corruption of the world ([SIZE=12pt]2Pe 2: 20 )[/SIZE] and IF we do not turn from righteousness to sin. ([SIZE=12pt]Eze 18:24) [/SIZE]

 

[ATP]

All of humanity make up the elect.

Incorrect. The elect are the children of God, those who are born again.

 

[ATP]

God loves ALL mankind. (John 3:16)
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jim, the elect are the children of God, those who are born again. The elect is not the world. Yes, God loved the world so much that His Son died on a cross, but not everyone will believe in him. You are still under God's wrath and are His enemy if you are not His child.

 

[JimParker]

Jim, the elect are the children of God, those who are born again. The elect is not the world. Yes, God loved the world so much that His Son died on a cross, but not everyone will believe in him. You are still under God's wrath and are His enemy if you are not His child.

I never suggested anything different.

The elect are whoever believes. Not everyone in the world is a believer.

Those who do not believe are under God's wrath but are still loved by God.

God's wrath has a purpose: to turn people away from their self-centered and self-destructive behavior and to believe and receive His gracious gift of salvation.

What I assert is that the "once saved, always saved" theology is false and a distortion of scripture.

 

[ATP]

The elect are whoever believes. Not everyone in the world is a believer.

But we're only believing once here. John 3:16 says once we believe we have eternal life and also Rom 10:9.

 

[JimParker]

But we're only believing once here. John 3:16 says once we believe we have eternal life and also Rom 10:9.

And your point is ..........

 

[ATP]

And your point is ..........

Once we believe on the name of Jesus and His resurrection, we then have eternal life. It's not saying once we believe, stop believing, believe, stop believing, believe etc....

 

[JimParker]

Once we believe on the name of Jesus and His resurrection, we then have eternal life. It's not saying once we believe, stop believing, believe, stop believing, believe etc....

If you are saying "once saved, always saved", that is contrary to the scriptures which have repeated posted for you.

You inability or refusal to accept what God has revealed for you is perplexing.

Have you never met anyone who quit believing?

Jesus did.

Mat 13:20-21 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

 

[ATP]

Mat 13:20-21 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

This is referring to those who hear the Gospel of truth but have not accepted Jesus as Savior, they have no root..similar to Matt 15:8-9 NIV and Rom 1:18-32 NIV.

Heb 2:1-3 ESV Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,

Heb 3:16 ESV For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?

Heb 4:1-3 ESV Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

When we do believe on His name and accept His message of truth we are then sealed until redemption Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Heb 4:3 NIV. - ATP

 

[Born_Again]

Real quick, folks, are we still on the OP? Honestly, I cant really tell.....

 

[JimParker]

This is referring to those who hear the Gospel of truth but have not accepted Jesus as Savior, they have no root..similar to Matt 15:8-9 NIV and Rom 1:18-32 NIV.

Heb 2:1-3 ESV Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 2For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 3how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,

Heb 3:16 ESV For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?

Heb 4:1-3 ESV Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

When we do believe on His name and accept His message of truth we are then sealed until redemption Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV, Heb 4:3 NIV. - ATP

Yes I am familiar with the circular logic required to hold to your extra-Biblical doctrine.

You clearly are not interested in anything God had to say which refutes your personal theology.

But, one last attempt:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Enlightened is a term used by the primitive church and is the rough equivalent of the modern churchianity word "saved."
To be a partaker of the Holy Spirit one must be filled with the Holy Spirit.
The term "commit apostasy" is actually "fall away" and is from the Greek word "parapiptō." According to Thayer it means: "to fall away from the true faith.

So Heb 6:6 specifically states that a born again believer can cease to believe and, ceasing to believe, to follow and ceasing to follow, to lose his salvation.

I won't bother you any more with what the rest of scripture says that you don't want to know about.

And, no, I'm not interested in any more of our canned scripture-twists. (Sounds like junk food! And, in a way, it is,) I've heard them all and no matter how many time I see or hear them, they're still junk theology.

 

[ATP]

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Enlightened is a term used by the primitive church and is the rough equivalent of the modern churchianity word "saved."
To be a partaker of the Holy Spirit one must be filled with the Holy Spirit.
The term "commit apostasy" is actually "fall away" and is from the Greek word "parapiptō." According to Thayer it means: "to fall away from the true faith.

So Heb 6:6 specifically states that a born again believer can cease to believe and, ceasing to believe, to follow and ceasing to follow, to lose his salvation.

Incorrect. If you go to Heb 6:7-8 you will see the crop, farmer, thorns and thistles. This all goes back to unbelief in the Jews in regards to the root, branch and vine.

 

[JimParker]

Incorrect. If you go to Heb 6:7-8 you will see the crop, farmer, thorns and thistles. This all goes back to unbelief in the Jews in regards to the root, branch and vine.

Apparently you have some difficulty withthe English language.

When I said I had heard all the canned responses that you OSAS people have been taught to parrot, I though I had communicated that I had no interest in hearing or seeing the same old mishandling of scripture by means of circular logic again.

Let me try smaller words.

I do not care to see any more of your junk theology. I have already seen it all. You have nothing new to offer.

 

[ATP]

Apparently you have some difficulty withthe English language.

When I said I had heard all the canned responses that you OSAS people have been taught to parrot, I though I had communicated that I had no interest in hearing or seeing the same old mishandling of scripture by means of circular logic again.

Let me try smaller words.

I do not care to see any more of your junk theology. I have already seen it all. You have nothing new to offer.

The Word of God is clear in John 3:16, Rom 8:33-39 speaks of the elect and Eph 1:13-14 and Eph 4:30 says we are sealed until redemption. It is the blood of Christ that keeps us in Him. Praise Him! - ATP

 

[aspen]

No relationship that involves humans is a guarantee. Too bad we aren't more like dogs....at least they are loyal

 

[ATP]

No relationship that involves humans is a guarantee. Too bad we aren't more like dogs....at least they are loyal

You keep ignoring that word fellowship. Hmm...besides this relationship is between human and God, not human and human.

 

[ATP]

Matt 21:31-32 NIV “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

 

[aspen]

The word fellowship is related to the word relationship. A mother and child relationship; marriage relationship are the closet relationships we can experience on earth between people. They are properly referred to by the term 'relationship' rather than fellowship.

The reason you are trying to nuisance these terms is to bolster your Calvinism.

The term fellowship is used to describe a less formal relationship - between friends rather than lovers, for example, not a 'better' or 'closer' relationship.

Paul uses it to describe a more familiar, less formal relationship between God and His followers. In the same way that Jesus uses the term abba to describe His less formal relationship with His Father. Like always God is encouraging us into an intimate relationship with Him, yet we continue to approach Him formally or in a distant manner