The question about 'soul'

[Dodo_David]

The word soul is not in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts, and it is not in the ancient Greek manuscripts, because the word soul comes from a language that wasn't used by any of the biblical authors.

So, does the Greek word psuchē (ψυχὴ) always have the same meaning as the Hebrew word nepes ( נֶפֶשׁ ). No, it does not.

According to the New Analytical Greek Lexicon and Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, psuchē (ψυχὴ) has multiple meanings, one being "the immaterial, invisible part of man" (Vine's), "the immaterial soul" (Lexicon). Dr. Ralph Earle affirms this meaning of psuchē in his book Word Meanings in the New Testament.

The word psuchē is used in Matthew 10:28. Regarding this verse, in his book Word Pictures in the New Testament, A.T. Robertson writes, ""Soul" here means the eternal spirit, not just life in the body."

Now, when modern-day English-speaking people read the word soul, do they think of the body of something animate, such as a person or an animal, or do they think of "the immaterial, invisible part of man" (Vine's), "the immaterial soul" (Lexicon), "the eternal spirit" (Robertson)?

Often they think of the latter, not the former, and the latter is not the meaning of the Hebrew word nepes ( נֶפֶשׁ ).

Being that the word soul isn't in the ancient biblical manuscripts anyway, it makes sense to translate nepes as something precise, such as "living creature".

By the way, I don't know of any English version of the Bible that uses the Germanic word soul to describe animals in Gen 1:21,30 or Gen 2:19.

So, the claim that "animals are also referred to as souls in Gen 1:21,30 Gen 2:19" is a claim that I find lacking in merit.

 

[digging]

So how do you then explain the two scriptures? I'm simply pointing out the way the bible is using these words. What I'm hearing you say is that you don't like the meaning because it is not fitting with your creed. Mark and Deut are very clearly using the same 'word'.

As for saying because a translator doesn't use the word does not change what is in the original Hebrew text!

I am not making a 'claim' about the animals, I've just pointed out how the Hebrew OT used the word 'Nephesh' when describing ALL living creatures humans included. This word then is quoted in Mark in Greek and is translated to psuche. Which is translated soul in many, many translations.

Digging

 

[Dodo_David]

So how do you then explain the two scriptures? I'm simply pointing out the way the bible is using these words. What I'm hearing you say is that you don't like the meaning because it is not fitting with your creed. Mark and Deut are very clearly using the same 'word'.

As for saying because a translator doesn't use the word does not change what is in the original Hebrew text!

I am not making a 'claim' about the animals, I've just pointed out how the Hebrew OT used the word 'Nephesh' when describing ALL living creatures humans included. This word then is quoted in Mark in Greek and is translated to psuche. Which is translated soul in many, many translations.

Digging

Do you agree that the word soul is of Germanic origin and is not in the ancient biblical manuscripts?

Do you agree that the word soul isn't used in English versions of Gen 1:21,30 or Gen 2:19 to describe animals?

Do you agree that the Hebrew word nepes ( נֶפֶשׁ ) doesn't mean "the immaterial, invisible part of man" (Vine's), "the immaterial soul" (Lexicon), "the eternal spirit" (Robertson)?

 

[digging]

I am saying the way English speaking people use the word 'soul' is not in harmony with the way that word is used in the bible when Hebrew & greek words are translated into the word soul.

As I understand the only immaterial part of humanity is the power of life given by God's Holy Spirit.

7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it

Psalm 146:4 NAS

His spirit departs, he returns to the earth ; In that very day his thoughts perish.

I don't have the same view as you, I truly believe people die and that is why the gift of Jesus sacrifice is so great. He truly is redeeming us back from death. The gift we are promised is to become a living immortal soul.

Digging

 

[Dodo_David]

The word soul is neither Hebrew or Greek. Instead, it is Germanic, and it is not in the ancient biblical manuscripts.
Thus, it is incorrect to say that the ancient Hebrew manuscripts use the Germanic word soul in Gen 1:21,30 or Gen 2:19 to describe animals.

What matters is what word is used in the Hebrew, not what word is used in any English version.

The Hebrew word nepes ( נֶפֶשׁ ) does not mean "the immaterial, invisible part of man" (Vine's), "the immaterial soul" (Lexicon), "the eternal spirit" (Robertson), which one of the meanings of the Germanic word soul.

I see no sense in giving nepes ( נֶפֶשׁ ) the vague translation of "soul" when the precise translation "living creature" can be given instead.

Indeed, most English versions of the Bible translate nepes ( נֶפֶשׁ ) as "living creatures".

 

[horsecamp]

Do you agree that the word soul is of Germanic origin and is not in the ancient biblical manuscripts?

Do you agree that the word soul isn't used in English versions of Gen 1:21,30 or Gen 2:19 to describe animals?

Do you agree that the Hebrew word nepes ( נֶפֶשׁ ) doesn't mean "the immaterial, invisible part of man" (Vine's), "the immaterial soul" (Lexicon), "the eternal spirit" (Robertson)?

nothing but urban legends-- dodo

 

[Dodo_David]

nothing but urban legends-- dodo

Why can't they be rural legends? Are you biased against rural legends? h34r:

 

[Raeneske]

I want to point out that within Christianity there is not 100% agreement regarding the understanding of soul and spirit.

Gen 2:7 Adam became a living being or living soul, animals are also referred to as souls in
Gen 1:21,30
Gen 2:19

Thus to judge something as 'alive' which has this life because of the spirit of God. Well I don't think we should be so quick to discredit the view some might have regarding the earth as something living.

Does not Gen 1:2 say God's spirit moved over the surface of the earth?

One way we know something is alive is if it can die. Can the earth die?

Ah now we say the rocks will not die, but I think we agree the whole great collective of life on earth could die.

Is not man made from the dust of the earth?

So is not man and all other living beings the 'earth' made alive into souls?

Digging

Man is but dust (and ashes).

Genesis 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

This dust and ashes cannot have life except the breath of life enters into them. If that breath is removed, man cannot live.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Job 34:14-15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

When man dies, he becomes dust again. For what are we? We are but dust (and ashes).

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.


This is an interesting passage in the Scriptures. I think it resembles creation and the resurrection.


Ezekiel 37:1-10 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Why can't they be rural legends? Are you biased against rural legends? h34r:

Good one !!!!!

You are right ..... rural legends have rights too !!!! .... we should be all-inclusive and stop shunning them

 

[Forsakenone]

my two mites for what it's worth, and sorry no refunds

I would suggest that it might have something to do with the natural mind of the believer that hasn't yet been reborn of water of Spirit.

While if one holds that the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breathe of life into the man and he became a living soul,
then the simple truth that man is formed by three states of matter being Solid, Liquid, and Gas, they would have to conclude that science got it wrong, or they weren't getting something right,
or even yet, the Spirit was revealing something.

But none the less, the human body couldn't be formed without these three states of matter. And in case anyone wants to respond that their God could form a man with just dust and air, I believe you, however the Spirit I follow can't
lie and not to say anyone else's does, yet my experience has been that there turns out to be a reason. And as I discover by looking into the topic of matter, I found out that found out that while I thought there were three states
of matter there are now four, so now I am down two states of matter, Liquid and Plasma [ionized gas]. And the thought comes to mind, marvel not, which kinda leads me to the passage after looking threw the scriptures where Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus. which I am pretty sure most are aware of.

So back on point, the term soul seems to reflect the dual mind set of one individual as spirit &flesh.

 

[Madad21]

Could you show me the vs that reads 'immortal soul' since you mentioned that, as I understand the Christian promise we look forwards to receiving immortality that is the gift to become an immortal soul.

Digging

This is a common Jehovahs Witness argument against the soul being immortal, just because the two words "immortal" and "Soul" dont appear together in the bible. Which is a similar argument to the word "Trinity".not being in there either.
However there are storys in the Bible that illustrate the separation of the soul from the body after death.
One is Jesus's story about the Richman and Lazarus, which the JW's claim is a parable and therefore unreliable.
Other texts refer to eternal punishment and visions of heaven which suggest strongly that the soul lives on after death.

I quite like this text in 1 Thessalonians, which seperates all three.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have recently read a book by Howard Pittman who describes the human condition as mimicking the trinitarian nature of God being Father Son Spirit. as we are Body Soul Spirit.