The Quranic Dilemma

[Matthias]

A three and a half minute video. Beginning at the 1:47 mark -

“The Quran says that Christians and Jews ought to obey the Old Testament and the Gospels. … Here’s the problem. Elsewhere in the Quran ... it says that Jesus never died, was taken straight to heaven, so he couldn’t have resurrected from the dead. … Why is it a dilemma? Because, if the Quran is saying in Chapter 5 obey the Bible, the New Testament, but the Quran in Chapter 4 is disagreeing with the New Testament, there is a bit of a dilemma here. Right? Either way, the Quran can’t be the word of God. Here’s why. If they’re right, about Surah 4, that Jesus never died, then Christianity is false, but so is Islam. Why? Because the next Chapter says you ought to obey what the New Testament says.“

(Frank Turek)

 

[amigo de christo]

A three and a half minute video. Beginning at the 1:47 mark -

“The Quran says that Christians and Jews ought to obey the Old Testament and the Gospels. … Here’s the problem. Elsewhere in the Quran ... it says that Jesus never died, was taken straight to heaven, so he couldn’t have resurrected from the dead. … Why is it a dilemma? Because, if the Quran is saying in Chapter 5 obey the Bible, the New Testament, but the Quran in Chapter 4 is disagreeing with the New Testament, there is a bit of a dilemma here. Right? Either way, the Quran can’t be the word of God. Here’s why. If they’re right, about Surah 4, that Jesus never died, then Christianity is false, but so is Islam. Why? Because the next Chapter says you ought to obey what the New Testament says.“

(Frank Turek)

Not to mention the fact that even if the jews who led their people
taught the law , and they did
IF one hears NOT the law , the prophets , moses
THEY DONT HEAR the law at all .
Had you BELEIVED MOSES you would have beleived ME for he WROTE OF ME .
IF ye were abrahams children YE would have DONE the works of abraham . FAITH
WHEN GOD spoke abraham BELEIVED
Yet when JESUS spoke , HIS words , MANY SEEM NOT TO BELEIVE .
SO how can one BELEIVE GOD and YET NOT BELEIVE THE SON
WHEN THE FATHER SENT THE SON , TESTIFIED ON THE SON
and Had you loved GOD you would have LOVED ME for i came forth OF GOD .
SO they can holler all day , But a lie i wont heed nor hear from their lips .
They cant even hear the law , the prophets who they cliam to beleive but darn sure dont .
CAUSE EVEN THE LAW , THE PROPHETS , POINTED TOO .....................drum roll please , JESUS THE CHRIST
Not some other jesus either .

 

[David in NJ]

Not to mention the fact that even if the jews who led their people
taught the law , and they did
IF one hears NOT the law , the prophets , moses
THEY DONT HEAR the law at all .
Had you BELEIVED MOSES you would have beleived ME for he WROTE OF ME .
IF ye were abrahams children YE would have DONE the works of abraham . FAITH
WHEN GOD spoke abraham BELEIVED
Yet when JESUS spoke , HIS words , MANY SEEM NOT TO BELEIVE .
SO how can one BELEIVE GOD and YET NOT BELEIVE THE SON
WHEN THE FATHER SENT THE SON , TESTIFIED ON THE SON
and Had you loved GOD you would have LOVED ME for i came forth OF GOD .
SO they can holler all day , But a lie i wont heed nor hear from their lips .
They cant even hear the law , the prophets who they cliam to beleive but darn sure dont .
CAUSE EVEN THE LAW , THE PROPHETS , POINTED TOO .....................drum roll please , JESUS THE CHRIST
Not some other jesus either .

"Not by might, nor by power but by My Spirit says the LORD"

All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

Could it be that without the Holy Spirit they cannot hear JESUS words.................

 

[Matthias]

There is a hole in the Quaranic Dilemma and anyone who wants to use it as a tool for conversation had better be aware of it before he or she does. The Muslim who has done his or her homework will cause you to regret it if you haven’t done yours.

 

[David in NJ]

There is a hole in the Quaranic Dilemma and anyone who wants to use it as a tool for conversation had better be aware of it before he or she does. The Muslim who has done his or her homework will cause you to regret it if you haven’t done yours.

A three and a half minute video. Beginning at the 1:47 mark -

“The Quran says that Christians and Jews ought to obey the Old Testament and the Gospels. … Here’s the problem. Elsewhere in the Quran ... it says that Jesus never died, was taken straight to heaven, so he couldn’t have resurrected from the dead. … Why is it a dilemma? Because, if the Quran is saying in Chapter 5 obey the Bible, the New Testament, but the Quran in Chapter 4 is disagreeing with the New Testament, there is a bit of a dilemma here. Right? Either way, the Quran can’t be the word of God. Here’s why. If they’re right, about Surah 4, that Jesus never died, then Christianity is false, but so is Islam. Why? Because the next Chapter says you ought to obey what the New Testament says.“

(Frank Turek)

That is the method of a cult = agree with the person's own belief system to show they accept you and then slowly twist away as the serpent to mesmerize the listerner

RCC and Islam are two widespread cults

Islam is the last 'crusade' except it goes by 'shariah law' and jihad = death to the infidels who refuse muhammad

We do not need to study the quran = we must study the Holy Scriptures and pray for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Matthias]

That is the method of a cult = agree with the person's own belief system to show they accept you and then slowly twist away as the serpent to mesmerize the listerner

RCC and Islam are two widespread cults

Islam is the last 'crusade' except it goes by 'shariah law' and jihad = death to the infidels who refuse muhammad

We do not need to study the quran = we must study the Holy Scriptures and pray for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The prepared Muslim won’t have any difficulty brushing the dilemma aside. It’s not a dilemma at all, unless the hole is filled. If / when that happens, there is a real dilemma. Filling the hole makes a big difference in how the conversation unfolds.

Want to win the Muslim? We have to first know what the hole is - the hole is, surprisingly, in the Christian argument; not in the Quran - and then know how to fill it. Otherwise we have little chance of winning the Muslim.

 

[Debp]

The prepared Muslim won’t have any difficulty brushing the dilemma aside. It’s not a dilemma at all, unless the hole is filled. If / when that happens, there is a real dilemma. Filling the hole makes a big difference in how the conversation unfolds.

Want to win the Muslim? We have to first know what the hole is - the hole is, surprisingly, in the Christian argument; not in the Quran - and then know how to fill it. Otherwise we have little chance of winning the Muslim.

Still a little brain fog after having a cold. Can you please explain the hole being filled?
Did understand your first post.

 

[David in NJ]

The prepared Muslim won’t have any difficulty brushing the dilemma aside. It’s not a dilemma at all, unless the hole is filled. If / when that happens, there is a real dilemma. Filling the hole makes a big difference in how the conversation unfolds.

Want to win the Muslim? We have to first know what the hole is - the hole is, surprisingly, in the Christian argument; not in the Quran - and then know how to fill it. Otherwise we have little chance of winning the Muslim.

We know that God raises up people from death from all walks of life.

i have heard excellent debates from those who were muslims and know the quran but are now saved and turn the battle against them
with the TRUTH.

Personally, i have no desire to learn the quran and debate with muslims.

My desire is to be transformed into His Likeness at His Second Coming = 1 John 3:1-3

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[Matthias]

Still a little brain fog after having a cold. Can you please explain the hole being filled?
Did understand your first post.

The hole in the argument is that the Muslim believes the New Testament has been corrupted. The New Testament we have clearly says that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried and bodily resurrected. The Muslim knows that. He firmly believes that’s not what the original New Testament said. That’s why the argument is easily brushed aside. It is the Christian who says the New Testament we have has not been corrupted.

As soon as we make the argument that the problem is with the Quran the opportunity is jeopardized. The Muslim insists the Quran is prefect, it is the corrupted Bible that is wrong. The Muslim himself or herself has to come to the point where he or she decides the New Testament has not been corrupted. If / when that happens, the dilemma becomes very real. It will have become a crisis in the life of the Muslim.

The hole that has to be anticipated and filled is the mistaken belief that the New Testament has been corrupted and, therefore, is unreliable.

The hole, in other words, is the issue of the reliability of the manuscripts. This is magnified, in the mind of the Muslim, by the large number of translations of the Bible. The sheer fact that there are so many translations is something which works against the Christian in conversations with Muslims.

If we aren’t prepared beforehand to deal with it, the Muslim is - and remains - confident that the whole argument is nonsense to begin with; a non sequitur.

It’s in fact a very powerful argument against Islam once the hole is filled.

 

[David in NJ]

The hole in the argument is that the Muslim believes the New Testament has been corrupted. The New Testament we have clearly says that Jesus was crucified, died, was buried and bodily resurrected. The Muslim knows that. He firmly believes that’s not what the original New Testament said. That’s why the argument is easily brushed aside. It is the Christian who says the New Testament we have has not been corrupted.

As soon as we make the argument that the problem is with the Quran the opportunity is jeopardized. The Muslim insists the Quran is prefect, it is the corrupted Bible that is wrong. The Muslim himself or herself has to come to the point where he or she decides the New Testament has not been corrupted. If / when that happens, the dilemma becomes very real. It will have become a crisis in the life of the Muslim.

The hole that has to be anticipated and filled is the mistaken belief that the New Testament has been corrupted and, therefore, is unreliable.

The hole, in other words, is the issue of the reliability of the manuscripts. This is magnified, in the mind of the Muslim, by the large number of translations of the Bible. The sheer fact that there are so many translations is something which works against the Christian in conversations with Muslims.

If we aren’t prepared beforehand to deal with it, the Muslim is - and remains - confident that the whole argument is nonsense to begin with; a non sequitur.

It’s in fact a very powerful argument against Islam once the hole is filled.

the Holy Spirit can fill that 'hole' with Truth in the mouth of a babe who never once read the quran

 

[Matthias]

We know that God raises up people from death from all walks of life.

i have heard excellent debates from those who were muslims and know the quran but are now saved and turn the battle against them
with the TRUTH.

Personally, i have no desire to learn the quran and debate with muslims.

My desire is to be transformed into His Likeness at His Second Coming = 1 John 3:1-3

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

If we don’t know what the Quran says then we won’t be effective in speaking with Muslims about it.

If a Muslim doesn’t know what the Bible says then he or she won’t be effective in speaking with Jews and Christians about it.

Know your enemy. Reading his book equips us to do that.

 

[Matthias]

the Holy Spirit can fill that 'hole' with Truth in the mouth of a babe who never once read the quran

“I don’t knows nothin ‘bouts wut yo buuk say but lets me tell y'all demon warshpers what da Ghost say.”

If I were a devout Muslim and someone came to me with that approach? Instant rejection.

If a Muslim approached me like that about the Bible? Instant rejection.

That approach (in either direction) is a dialogue killer. We aren’t drawing anyone close with it. We’re causing them to harden their hearts.

 

[David in NJ]

“I don’t knows nothin ‘bouts wut yo buuk say but lets me tell y'all demon warshpers what da Ghost say.”

If I were a devout Muslim and someone came to me with that approach? Instant rejection.

If a Muslim approached me like that about the Bible? Instant rejection.

That approach (in either direction) is a dialogue killer. We aren’t drawing anyone close with it. We’re causing them to harden their hearts.

you speaking in tongues or something?

i was not referring to tongues

 

[Matthias]

We do not need to study the quran = we must study the Holy Scriptures and pray for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

“We do not need to study the bible = we must study the Holy Quran and pray to Allah for …”

Neither is going to impact the other.

 

[David in NJ]

“We do not need to study the bible = we must study the Holy Quran and pray to Allah for …”

Neither is going to impact the other.

sword fight

 

[Matthias]

you speaking in tongues or something?

i was not referring to tongues

No. I’m trying to show you why the approach - which I intentionally made offensive to amplify the point - doesn’t work.

 

[Matthias]

sword fight

That’s right. Both sides will dig in and both sides will bleed. That’s the history of Islam and Christianity in a nutshell.

 

[Matthias]

Did Paul, a Jew, know what was written by pagan philosophers?

 

[Matthias]

For the Quranic Dilemma argument to have any chance of being successful, a basic knowledge of what is written in the Quran is necessary. If what is written in the Quran was unknown, the argument itself never would have come into existence.

Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically. Read a translation of the Quran. If you have the ability to read Arabic, read the Quran.

You will find some things written in it which come from the Bible. Those points of agreement are good subjects to begin a dialogue with Muslims.

 

[Matthias]

Find the strongest argument you can against your position.

This is a lesson I learned well from playing Chess semi-professionally in the days of my youth. Determine, as best as you can, the strengths and weaknesses of an action you’re considering taking.

The action we’re considering taking is using the Quranic Dilemma in conversations with Muslims.

The strongest argument against the action we’re intending to take is the issue of the reliability - the unreliability, from the Islamic perspective - of the manuscripts. In other words, the allegation (the counter action) of Islam that the Bible has been corrupted.

Our response?

If the counter argument of Islam can’t be shown to be false, it’s a lost cause. We must be properly equipped to defend the reliability of the manuscript evidence. Only then can we go ahead with our planned action.