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The Rapture View: The Three Harvests

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Pariah, Nov 20, 2007.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I understand that some of you have hope of a rapture I would love to tell you all its going to happen but Gods Word never tells us that I have studied this from every angle for more years than I would like to admit there is no rapture!!IN GODS WORDIt is the work of Satan to keep you from understaning what will happen in the end times because if you are aware we are to stay working in the field and wait on the Lord Satan knows he looses you. Mine and Denver and the others on here that have learned this lie of Satan men have fallen for do not have a problem if you want to hope for it. But DO not let Hope blind you to truth of Gods Word. It does make us angry when we argue this it makes us sad so many listen to men over God. We will always listen to God over men. Men have tried to twist and force scripture to support this rapture but when you study a little futher you can easily see this is a lie and not what is said I repeat again there HAS NEVER IN ALL TIME BEEN ONE SINGLE BIT OF PROOF THAT RAPTURE IS IN SCRIPTURE IT IS WHY TO THIS DAY IT IS CALLED A THEROY A THEROY OF WHOM? MEN !!! NOT GOD!!!!!! He no where in scripture promises any kind of Rapture until he comes at the 7th trump and changes all not some ALL this is the first resurrection the second is not untill after those worthy and those that died not knowing the truth have an oppurtunity to be taught by Christ himself here on earth in New Jerusalem and for 1000 years Satan and his evil buddies are held then Satan is loosed again for a short time to test the ones that were taught. Then comes the white throne Judgement, the second resurrectionAnd Satan and all his pals are thrown into the Lake of Fire where they are destroyed forever
     
  2. yearegods

    yearegods New Member

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    If there is a Rapture at some point before, in the middle or at the end of the capitalized "Great Tribulation", and it is of the Christians, then the unbelievers can wait until the Christians are taken up just before the tribulation or at the 3 1/2 years mark, or wheneverthe Rapture takes place to "get saved", right? And why does Scripture report Jesus as having said, in Mt 24: 28, "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."? The word translated as eagles is said to probably mean vultures per the KJV Greek Lexicon, so then the question is, why is the rapture to end in a dead body with vultures gathered about it?
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Because we are changed in the twinkling of an eye into spirit bodies at the second coming we will no longer be in flesh the flesh is rotting until it is burned up with the elements when God recreates the New heaven and earth. There is no rapture in the word of God Notta, none, zero, read my previous post foe details NO Rapture
     
  4. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    Kriss If you and Denver understand this why is it so hard for everyone else to get it? This is a different teaching for post trib thinking. I am trying to understand, but need more time. I am only interested in the bible truth. I dont need to be right. How many others out there understand your teaching?
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I understand the no Rapture doctrine as Kriss and Denver. The reason it is very hard for many to get i is, they lean towards preconceived ideas of men. Christ, Paul, and maybe the others (if my memory serves me correct) told us to "Be not deceived." We are not going to fly away. Why? Cause YHWH said it. (Ezekiel 13:20)Either that, Or they can't read the Bible straight at all.We are originally in our incorruptible body. Because there was a Earth Age before this...(The First Earth Age) [Time Gap] Then now we are in our flesh body that is corruptible. Does not our skin get crack if on a cold weather? or our skin being peeled off because we don't put lotion on?Jag
     
  6. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    I am asking how many besides you three. I dont believe in rapture docterine. I do believein 2nd coming. There is a different twist to to it you have to agree. I just would like an idea how many people believe this doctorine 10, 30, 1000? I am concerned about the way you inturpret 1thess 4:17 I dont consider that a rapture, but a 2nd coming after the man of peridition. being caught up together in the cloud is pretty clear. Pre-rapturesttheory believes in a secret coming and then a seconed coming which is bogus. I am going to continue to study it. I know i am not as cool as you guys yet! I do still listen to some men and women like you guys.Crooner
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (crooner;23992)
    I am asking how many besides you three. I dont believe in rapture docterine. I do believein 2nd coming. There is a different twist to to it you have to agree. I just would like an idea how many people believe this doctorine 10, 30, 1000? I am concerned about the way you inturpret 1thess 4:17 I dont consider that a rapture, but a 2nd coming after the man of peridition. being caught up together in the cloud is pretty clear. Pre-rapturesttheory believes in a secret coming and then a seconed coming which is bogus. I am going to continue to study it. I know i am not as cool as you guys yet! I do still listen to some men and women like you guys.Crooner
    I will be honest with you here. Not very many. But I will say this though. Those who study God's Words very deeply and use Hebrew and Greek words (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance) knows that there is no Rapture.On another note: Since when was ever God Words become popular? Never. It is always lies (Men's Doctrine) that becomes so popular.We don't need a name. Yet men needs a new name because they refuse to take the right way to eternal life. They will try, but they will fail. (Genesis 11:4)Jag
     
  8. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    Thanks for being honest Jag I am open to learning something new. I guess iam a post 2nd comingist.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    the second coming that is when we are changed it is just never called a rapture thats why I say no rapture there is no scripture saying any rapture If you want to call the change at the seventh trump a post rapture fine but Gods word calls it the changing in the twinkle of an eye. And To disagree with Jag here if it were just 3 of us there would be a problem. This was never taught by the Apostles nor any of the early churches our grandparents were never taught this. Its a modern day THERORY there are thousands perhaps millions that do believe rapture No churches outside those with American influence teach itbecause its not in the Bible to teach. The only ones that believe it are the ones that do not study but just listen to men. I will tell you again Thess. 1:4 was a misunderstanding the church was three weeks old some Jews had heard rumors that the Lord was come or his coming was imminentTHATS WHY PAUL SENT THE SECOND LETTER why is this so difficult to understand you will believe 1st thess but deny 2nd thess. ? there is no contradictions in Gods word.Paul tells you exactly when the gathering to our lord is AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND ANTICHRIST AT THE LAST TRUMP Here are just a few studies on this from others I will say again there is no rapture in scripture. TO date NO ONE HAS FOUND ANY SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS A RAPTURE If anyone wants to disreguard the rest of scripture for a mistake made by a three week old church even in the face of Paul himself correcting it go ahead but Im basing my belief in Gods Word not a lack of understanding of 1:4 thess. [url="http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudies/raptureofthechurch.htm]http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudie...ofthechurch.htm[/url]http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/mi...us/smith_01.htmhttp://www.mt.net/~watcher/nopretrb.htmlhttp://revlu.com/rap.htmlhttp://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    It may be of some help if you read the Historical account of Thess. (I did not write these)Historical account of ThessaloniansThe first letter of Paul to the Thessalonians is also the first letter the apostle wrote. It was written to a struggling, yet vigorous church that was only a few months old, made up of Christians who had just come to Christ under Paul's ministry. This is a delightfully revealing letter, showing the heart of the apostle toward these new Christians, and also showing the struggles that were present in the early church. We sometimes get very distorted conceptions of these early Christians; there's a tendency to regard them as always triumphant, always waging the battle with vigor, and always winning great victories in Christ's name. But they also had very severe problems, some of which are reflected in this letter. It was written about 50 A.D., and may well be the first part of our New Testament to be written. Most scholars feel that the gospels were written about this same time or shortly afterward, though some hold that the gospel of Matthew, and perhaps of Mark, appeared about 43 or 45 A.D. At any rate, this letter is at least one of the earliest Christian writings. The account of Paul's founding of this church is recorded in the seventeenth chapter of Acts. After he and Silas were thrown into prison in Philippi because of their preaching of the Gospel, an earthquake shook down the prison doors and freed the prisoners. Paul was then freed by the Roman magistrates, and he left Philippi and went to Thessalonica. Many of the places where Paul preached have crumbled into ruin, but Thessalonica is still a thriving, bustling metropolis. It was then the capital of Macedonia, but it is now in Greece proper, and is called Thessalonike. From the account in Acts, we learn that Paul had only been there about three weeks when persecution began and he had to leave the city for his own safety. He went down to Athens and from there he sent Timothy back to Thessalonica to see how these Christians were doing. He was very disturbed about them; he felt that perhaps the persecution they were undergoing would drive them from their faith. He went on to Corinth where he founded a church after several months of difficult labor. After some time, Timothy returned to him at Corinth, bringing word of how the Thessalonians were doing, and of some of the problems they were facing. As we read this little letter through, we can recognize them as the kind of problems that we also face. For one thing, wherever the Apostle Paul went, he was hounded by a group of Jews who spread the rumor that because he was not one of the original twelve, he was not a genuine apostle. This was not only a problem for Paul, but also for the Thessalonians. Furthermore, the pagans of Thessalonica were severely persecuting the Christians -- threatening them, and taking away their property -- so these early Christians, perhaps only three or four weeks old in the Lord, were called upon to endure hard things for the cause of Christ. In that city, as in all the Greek cities, sexual promiscuity was common -- was even regarded as a religious right -- and to live a life of chastity was to be regarded as a freak. Therefore, as is the case today, there was great pressure upon these new Christians to fall into line with the common sex practices of their day. Then the major problem of this church was that the second coming of Jesus Christ was greatly misunderstood. The apostle had evidently told them something, but they were confused about this, which produced another grave problem. Some of them were expecting Christ to come back so imminently that they had actually stopped working and were waiting for him to come. Since they weren't earning a living, somebody had to take care of them, and they were leeches on the rest of the congregation. Also, there were tensions developing between the congregation and the church leaders which needed some admonition to settle, and finally, there were those who were somewhat indifferent to the Holy Spirit's work among them, and to the truth of God as it was being proclaimed in the Scriptures. This is when Paul writes his second letter it was very impairitive to Paul to correct this teachings about the timing of the Coming of the Lord---------------------A Second account from another sourceSome history of ThessoloniansThis is the situation that the fledgling Christian congregation in Thessolonica found itself in. As the story unfold in the seventeenth chapter of Acts, Paul had come to Thessolonica after he was freed from prison in Philipi by an earthquake. He spent about three weeks in Thessolonica before persecution of his new converts to Christianity got so bad that he had to leave the city for his own safety. He sent Timothy back from Corinth and when Timothy returned to tell of the trials that the Thessolonians were going through, Paul felt moved to write them his first pastoral letter, part of what we now call the epistles (after the Greek word for "letter") . He intended to bolster their faith in the face of great persecution. The Thessolonians had to keep struggling just to stay in place. They were new Christians; many of them were Greek converts, who did not have the benefit of a strong scriptural knowledge held by many of the Jewish converts. They were in a city filled with sin and immoral practices, and were trying to conform their lives to their status as new men and women in Jesus Christ. The temptations were very strong, but they were learning how to draw on their faith to enable them to resist. In this letter, Paul starts by telling the members of this congregation just how he feels about them, and how he views their relationship with God. In the last half of the letter, he gives them some very practical advice about how to live in a society that does not share their values. It is under these circumstances of new and struggling christians that a false doctrine slips into their mists. When Paul gets this report he quickly pens his second letter. To correcttheir misunderstandings.........................................................................................................................................After reading this I hope you can see the confused state this new christain church was in So the only question is are you going to believe a some confused new christians in 1st Thess or Paul himself in 2nd Thess.If you choose Paul in 2nd Thess. as we do
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (kriss;23998)
    the second coming that is when we are changed it is just never called a rapture thats why I say no rapture there is no scripture saying any rapture If you want to call the change at the seventh trump a post rapture fine but Gods word calls it the changing in the twinkle of an eye. And To disagree with Jag here if it were just 3 of us there would be a problem. This was never taught by the Apostles nor any of the early churches our grandparents were never taught this. Its a modern day THERORY there are thousands perhaps millions that do believe rapture No churches outside those with American influence teach itbecause its not in the Bible to teach. The only ones that believe it are the ones that do not study but just listen to men. I will tell you again Thess. 1:4 was a misunderstanding the church was three weeks old some Jews had heard rumors that the Lord was come or his coming was imminentTHATS WHY PAUL SENT THE SECOND LETTER why is this so difficult to understand you will believe 1st thess but deny 2nd thess. ? there is no contradictions in Gods word.Paul tells you exactly when the gathering to our lord is AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION AND ANTICHRIST AT THE LAST TRUMP Here are just a few studies on this from others I will say again there is no rapture in scripture. TO date NO ONE HAS FOUND ANY SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS A RAPTURE If anyone wants to disreguard the rest of scripture for a mistake made by a three week old church even in the face of Paul himself correcting it go ahead but Im basing my belief in Gods Word not a lack of understanding of 1:4 thess. [url="http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudies/raptureofthechurch.htm]http://www.biblestudygames.com/biblestudie...ofthechurch.htm[/url]http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/mi...us/smith_01.htmhttp://www.mt.net/~watcher/nopretrb.htmlhttp://revlu.com/rap.htmlhttp://www.biblestudysite.com/rapture.htm
    I should have made myself clear on that...Kriss is completely right. Although on what I said "Those who study deeply in God's Words..." may or may not sound clear to everyone. Thanks for the correction Kriss.Jag
     
  12. yearegods

    yearegods New Member

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    Kriss, you wrote "the second coming that is when we are changed", and certainly there is Scripture which says we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but what about what happened when we were born again? Is that not being changed? Paul talks about putting on the new man, which is Christ Jesus, and we are told not to walk by the mind of the flesh but by the Spirit. If we must wait to be changed into His likeness when He comes back, then what are we in the meantime?
     
  13. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    Our Flesh is Still Corrupt, not our Spirits. When he comes again we will have a new Body that is incorruptible and Fully Spirit and Fully Flesh like unto his own.
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Unorthodox Christian;24071)
    Our Flesh is Still Corrupt, not our Spirits. When he comes again we will have a new Body that is incorruptible and Fully Spirit and Fully Flesh like unto his own.
    I agree 100% Unorthodox Christian. When we are born again, God is just putting His nature into our flesh nature. And like Unorthodox Christian said...we are still corrupted, as we still make mistakes. Do we not?Jag
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Agree with unorthodox and Jag here not only are we told this changing makes us incorruptible we are also told its at the Last trump the last trump is the 7th and it is the 7th trump that Christ returns. Antichrist/Satan comes at the 5th/6th trump to my knowledge 5 & 6 always comes before 7 (5,6,7)
     
  16. yearegods

    yearegods New Member

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    sorry, but none of the answers to my post answered the question: what happened when we were born again? Someone said the Spirit was put into our corrupted flesh, or words to that effect, but what about "we are dead to sin and alive to the Spirit"? What about "putting on the new man"? Is it only about behavior change? If that is so, then why did Jesus have to die to make it happen? We all know that people who are not born again can alter their behavior, for good or evil. If all the good stuff is waiting for us at that "last trump", why bother with the Christian life here and now? Why did Jesus say "he who lives and believes in me shall NEVER die"? And what about John 3:16? When does eternal life start? Does it depend on our dying physically? If so, then eternal is not eternal, it is a grave and not life until death. That doesn't even make logical sense.
     
  17. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi yearegods,Hope the Lord can enable me to help you. If not..mayhap He will lead you to the answers you seek as your questions do run over each other to varying degrees.
    Why did Jesus say "he who lives and believes in me shall NEVER die"? And what about John 3:16? When does eternal life start? Does it depend on our dying physically? If so, then eternal is not eternal, it is a grave and not life until death. That doesn't even make logical sense.
    John 11: 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Someone said the Spirit was put into our corrupted flesh, or words to that effect, but what about "we are dead to sin and alive to the Spirit"? What about "putting on the new man"? Is it only about behavior change? If that is so, then why did Jesus have to die to make it happen? We all know that people who are not born again can alter their behavior, for good or evil.
    We can only mortify the deeds of the body by the Spirit, but to get the Spirit, Jesus had to die. Once we have been bought by His Blood, we are made a new creature in Christ for believing in Jesus as Our Saviour and thus able to receive the Spirit.2 Corinthians 5: 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.Thus by maing us new creatures hence new winebottles, we are able to receive the Holy Spirit for Him to abide in us forever and able to be preserved as in saved. Thus we are reconciled to God, and now we have a restored relationship with Him as we walk with Jesus in this fallen world in this corruptible state in the hope in Him for eternal life as well as in Him to live this life as His by grace that we may know Him and the power of His resurrection in living that christian life by the grace of God.Romans 8: 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.People that are not born again can alter their behaviour for good and evil, but they cannot know God except through Jesus Christ the Lord. And since scriptures says no one is good.... that all have become corrupt... I would not buy into that outward appearance of man at all. Everybody needs the Saviour.
     
  18. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Okay yearegods (cool name what does it mean) Think of it this waywhen we are born again we are a new being a being of christ.that does not mean our old being dissapears. From the day you convert your new being and your old being are at war. when you die and are with christ the old being is destroyed and the new being becomes stronger as you are now fully with God without seperation.thats my theory. Oh and by the way just to relate with thread I do not believe in the rapture, and I don't believe in your end of the world theory's either. Revelation can be translated in so many different ways its unbelievable. and until we reach the end of the world and the second coming we wouldn't know what revelation means. and from a logical viewpoint the popular christian end of the world scenario is so widespread almost no one would be caught by surprise. unless there is a different end of the world scenario in which a very small majority believe in, then satan would be using the Tim Lahaye theory to catch the world by surprise. maybe we need to rethink the whole scenario. Does the antichrist have to be a person. Is the mark of the beast a literal mark. "for If God did not shorten the days then even the elect would be fooled"just some thoughts. Your brother in Christ FitzI'll tell you my theory once I get more evidence for it. still fleshing it out.
     
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