The Real Foundation of the RCC.

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BreadOfLife

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The only job you find easy BoL, being so natural to you, is the personal abuse you resort to when bereft of real counterarguments. Calling my posts "manure" doesn't really cut it as far as refutation of prophesy. I thought you Jesuits were trained better.
Added to that is the fact that I am using Catholic sources. Must be very difficult to refute your own without condemning yourself.
Uhhhhh, no - your posts have been responded to but you ignore them and continue carpet-posting your flawed little diatribes. It's a one-way conversation - not a dialogue.

I can sit here all day long just like YOU and post my opinions - no matter how incorrect - and ignore when I'm being corrected, but I prefer honest dialogue . . .
 
B

brakelite

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Uhhhhh, no - your posts have been responded to but you ignore them and continue carpet-posting your flawed little diatribes. It's a one-way conversation - not a dialogue.

I can sit here all day long just like YOU and post my opinions - no matter how incorrect - and ignore when I'm being corrected, but I prefer honest dialogue . . .
This is a Bible study BoL. This isn't my personal opinion being laid against your church.
How can you correct me when I have been using infallible Catholic sources from councils and history as recorded by Catholic historians, one a cardinal no less! You have NOT corrected me BoL. What I have posted is a clear honest detailed exposition of the characteristics and criteria that God has attached to the little horn power of Daniel 7. They are not opinions. It is a Bible study. Try and prove me wrong by all means, but simple statements of denial don't cut it against clear Biblical exegesis.
It is not my fault, nor is it error, nor is it coincidence that those very same criteria, as proved by the Catholic sources I have been quoting, not only apply to the little horn power of Daniel 7 (the Antichrist) but they also fit perfectly as an accurate descriptive of the Catholic church. What you do with that information is entirely up to you. I cannot make you see what you have sworn not to see. Deny all you want. Your denials don't alter the facts.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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The real foundation of the Roman Catholic Church under Vatican II todays, is that it has become a works of man garb. they look up to Political Correctness, First and foremost in their lives and so do all of the Protestants and so do all the other so called Christian denominations, that they have all fell flat on their arse for that Satanic trash.
Any Christian Church that is involved in money is of Satan.
Money has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all or his Church, the number one thing is the Holy Spirit first and foremost at all times.
Jesus in fact pointed out what money was and who was of that money, on a coin, that's it ! end of story, the message Jesus is giving us all is the Holy Spirit and this is the only thing you truly need and with that then you can move forward under God and that's how it works.
Your money and your good works are not of Jesus Christ at all and that's a fact.

You all can go and feed the starving 3rd world and this makes you feel good ? but this has nothing to do with God at all, it's a mans works ego trip, now if a man has a property and x amount of head on it and along comes hard times and the cattle die, it's the farmer who is the problem because he was not a good Shepherd, end of story regardless. Each Shepherd is responsible for his own, just like a State is responsible for running the State, their is no excuse !
If your leadership is rubbish, you know what you are going to have hell to pay down the track, end of story. now why should anyone come to prop up a fool, who does the workings of Satan, such is like encourage a spoiled brat, as such will never learn. let him learn the hard way and maybe he will become a man and become responsible for himself and take his job seriously.

What we are doing now is a new age of dip sticks and spoiled brats who are tampering with God, living a lie, this generation is the most brainwashed bunch of fools their ever was, we are going to get f ed over big time, because most disregarded Jesus Christ and have had it to good, been pampered to much and are incompetent spoiled brats who kick against the pricks.
You all have let money rule over you first and foremost and we will cop it for idolising what man has made out of this god, the whole system of is full of hot air, so when it crashes you know who to blame, your worldly workings god you have idolised and rejected Jesus Christ.

Look at all the churches boasting of what they have done every year, I say to them how many people did you truly bring to the Lord Jesus Christ to be born again of the Holy Spirit, that's all God wants from you in fact and to be his people, that's what it's all about, no racial BS or any other, but Jesus Christ in your life first and foremost, no Jew worship BS no end of times BS and do you all know why, because if you truly believed in Jesus Christ that's all that you need, it's all that people ever needed in the beginning and ever will need regardless, at the end of times who is it that people will need ? Jesus Christ.
Mans works has never cut it and never will because such is just Godless madness.

The history of Political Correctness what has that ever done, well firstly the Communist created it then the Nazis took it up and now the Godless dip sticks are swallowing it and marching about dictating it over all just like the parasites who did swallow it all before them.
Young people know bugger all about History or Christianity for that matter and what they may of been told is mainly worthless nonsense that does not educate but only indoctrinate.
A social gospel does not cut it nor does it inspire a life in Jesus Christ.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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This is a Bible study BoL. This isn't my personal opinion being laid against your church.
How can you correct me when I have been using infallible Catholic sources from councils and history as recorded by Catholic historians, one a cardinal no less! You have NOT corrected me BoL. What I have posted is a clear honest detailed exposition of the characteristics and criteria that God has attached to the little horn power of Daniel 7. They are not opinions. It is a Bible study. Try and prove me wrong by all means, but simple statements of denial don't cut it against clear Biblical exegesis.
It is not my fault, nor is it error, nor is it coincidence that those very same criteria, as proved by the Catholic sources I have been quoting, not only apply to the little horn power of Daniel 7 (the Antichrist) but they also fit perfectly as an accurate descriptive of the Catholic church. What you do with that information is entirely up to you. I cannot make you see what you have sworn not to see. Deny all you want. Your denials don't alter the facts.
I see that all have drank of the same cup nowadays, just look at how many run from the church's nowadays, the only churches doing well are the modern idiot ones who are just spinning total BS end of times and personal wealth creation worship and the Political Correct lines god will bless you with money and power BS, when having a lot of power or money is in fact a curse, an eye of a needle and a camel comes to mind and power is deadly and corrupts.
 
B

brakelite

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But we must now turn to the other Jesuit scholar: Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), from Salamanca, Spain. Ribera was a brilliant student who specialized in Latin, Greek and Hebrew. He received a doctorate in theology from the University of Salamanca and joined the Jesuit Order in 1570 when he was just 33 years old.
Before we analyze Ribera’s methods of prophetic interpretation we must underline that the Early Church fathers (not the New Testament writers!!) had certain futuristic elements in their eschatology. They almost unanimously believed that the “restrainer” of II Thessalonians 2 was the Roman Empire. They also believed that as soon as the Empire fell apart, a literal evil individual would arise to rule the world for three and a half literal years. (See, George Eldon Ladd, The Blessed Hope, pp. 28-31 where he presents, for example, the views of Lactantius and Hippolytus).
In all fairness to these Church Fathers, we must remember two things:

1) They did not expect the history of the world to last another 2000 years. They believed that the coming of Christ was in the foreseeable future.

2) Prophecy is usually not understood in its fulness until the times of fulfillment.
Jesus Himself explained to the disciples: “And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.” (John 14:29).
The Gospels reveal that the disciples of Jesus totally misunderstood and misapplied Bible prophecy before the resurrection. It was not until after the fulfillment of these prophecies that their hearts burned within them as Jesus opened unto them the Scriptures (Luke 24:32). History proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the meaning of the prophecies becomes clearer and clearer as the time of fulfillment draws near (see, II Peter 1:19).
The Early Church Fathers lived in the time of the fourth beast (Rome). The Empire had not yet crumbled into ten kingdoms. The little horn had not yet risen. The best they could do was guess about the identity of the Antichrist.
But the Protestant Reformers did not need to guess. They had the benefit of looking back at over one thousand years of church history and saw, with their own eyes, what the Early Church fathers could not have foreseen. By the time of the Reformers, the Roman Empire had crumbled into ten kingdoms and an evil spiritual empire (Papal Rome) had risen among these kingdoms to rule over them. Thus, the Reformers had the benefit of history to help them identify the little horn, the Man of Sin, the Beast, the Harlot and the abomination of desolation.
Now, back to Ribera. This Jesuit scholar capitalized on the incomplete views of the Early Church fathers. In 1590 he published a 500-page commentary on the Apocalypse where he expounded the prophecies of Revelation using the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism. The main tenets of his eschatology are described by Froom:
“Ribera assigned the first few chapters of the Apocalypse to ancient Rome, in John’s own time; the rest he restricted to a literal three and a half years reign of an infidel Antichrist, who would bitterly oppose and blaspheme the saints just before the second advent. He taught that Antichrist would be a single individual, who would rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, abolish the Christian religion, deny Christ, be received by the Jews, pretend to be God, and conquer the world–and all in this brief space of three and onehalf years!” (Froom, PFF, II, pp. 489-490, ).
Ribera was more of a writer than a lecturer. He also died at the early age of 54. For these reasons, Ribera’s views needed a shrewd and articulate champion to carry his message far and wide. The champion was found and his name was Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621).
Bellarmine was an Italian cardinal and also one of the ablest Jesuit controversialists. He was a powerful speaker and lectured to large audiences. Bellarmine picked up where Ribera left off. In fact, Bellarmine made it his special project to spread the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism with unabated passion.
“He insisted that the prophecies concerning Antichrist in Daniel, Paul, and John, had no application to the papal power. This formed the third part of his Disputationes de Controversiis Christianae Fidei Adversus Huius Temporis Haereticos [Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time], published between 1581 and 1593. This was the most detailed apology of the Catholic faith ever produced, and became the arsenal for all future defenders and expositors. It called forth a host of counter-writings from Protestant leaders, who considered him their greatest adversary.” (Froom, PFF, II, p. 495).
Though the basics of Bellarmine’s prophetic views were identical to Ribera’s, he “perfected”, “refined” and amplified many of the details. And he crusaded in favor of the literalistic futurist view and against the Protestants with an evangelistic zeal worthy of admiration!
Bellarmine was an expert at turning the Reformers against themselves. For example, he wondered why Luther, who taught that his views were based on Scripture alone, doubted the canonicity of the book of Revelation. In contrast, Bellarmine appeared to be the defender of the book of Revelation as part of the New Testament canon.
He also took painstaking efforts to document the fact that the Reformers could not even agree among themselves as to when the prophetic periods began and ended. For example, some Protestants dated the beginning of the dominion of the Antichrist from the fall of Rome (400 A. D.). Others dated it to 600 A. D., when Pope Gregory the Great took the papal throne, and still others dated it to somewhere between 200 and 773, 1,000, or even 1,200. Bellarmine contended that if the Reformers could not agree on the time period of Antichrist’s dominion, neither could they be trusted to identify who he was. Bellarmine also documented that the Early Church fathers (not the New Testament writers!!) taught an individual Antichrist who would rule for a literal three and a half year period. In this way he tried to prove that his view was the original belief of the Early Church. He also showed that each of the Reformers interpreted Daniel and Revelation’s symbols differently. In this way he worked to undermine their views regarding the identity of the Antichrist.
In chapter five of his work, Bellarmine employed an argument which would later be picked up by Protestants. There, Bellarmine rewrote history, saying that the Roman Empire had never been divided according to the specifications of the prophecy and therefore, Antichrist could not have come yet. According to Bellarmine, the complete desolation of the Roman Empire must come before the advent of the Antichrist, and this had not yet taken place. Later on we will see that a host of Protestant writers picked up this argument and “ran with it”.
The essence of Bellarmine’s argument is that the Papacy cannot be the Antichrist for three reasons:

  1. The Antichrist prophecies call for an individual but the Papacy is a system.
  2. The Antichrist time periods demand a literal three and one half years, but the Papacy has existed for centuries.
  3. Antichrist is to sit in the Jerusalem Temple, but the popes are ruling in Rome.
Let’s allow Bellarmine to tell us these things in his own words:
“For all Catholics think thus that the Antichrist will be one certain man; but all heretics teach. . . that Antichrist is expressly declared to be not a single person, but an individual throne or absolute kingdom, and apostate seat of those who rule over the church.”
(Quoted in Froom, PFF, II, p. 500).
“Antichrist will not reign except for three years and a half. But the Pope has now reigned spiritually in the church more than 1500 years; nor can anyone be pointed out who has been accepted for Antichrist, who has ruled exactly three and one-half years; therefore the Pope is not Antichrist. Then Antichrist has not yet come. (Quoted in Froom, PFF, II, p. 502).
“The Pope is not antichrist since indeed his throne is not in Jerusalem, nor in the temple of Solomon; surely it is credible that from the year 600, no Roman pontiff has ever been in Jerusalem.”
(Quoted in Froom, PFF, II, p. 502).
It is abundantly clear that Bellarmine applied the hermeneutic of a stringent literalism in his exposition of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. As we shall see later, this literalistic hermeneutic was picked up by conservative Protestants and taken to ridiculous extremes. But now we must get back to our story of futurism’s “incredible journey.”
For over 150 years after Ribera and Bellarmine, Protestantism remained true to its prophetic principles. But then there was a shift, gentle at first and then with a vengeance!! In the early 19th century some Protestant expositors began to make overtures to Rome. This can be seen most clearly in the Oxford Tractarian Movement of the Anglican Church in England. Let’s allow Froom to describe the movement toward Rome:
“But now, in the nineteenth century in Britain, the Futurist concept was again revived, by Samuel Maitland, James Todd, William Burgh, John Darby of the Plymouth Brethren, and the renowned John Henry Newman.” (Froom, PFF, III, p. 656).
It all started with Samuel Maitland who in 1826 published a series of pamphlets entitled, Enquiries. Froom states that “In these Maitland had militantly assailed the whole Protestant application to the Roman Papacy of the symbols of the little horn, Daniel’s fourth beast, the Apocalyptic Beast, and Babylon–holding that a personal and avowedly infidel antichrist was meant, and asserting that the prophetic days of its dominance were simply literal days.” (Froom, PFF, III, p. 657).
 
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brakelite

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Maitland’s views were shared by James Todd (1805-1869) and William Burgh b1800-d1866 [both were clergymen in the Church of England]. These views would eventually form the foundation for John Henry Newman’s return to Rome.
Notice the following words from William Burgh: “First that ‘THE MAN OF SIN’ is not popery appears from the necessity that this chapter be understood of an individual, and not of a power or office vested in numbers or held by succession.” (William Burgh, Lectures on the Second Advent [second edition], p. 63).
“I would say that an individual is intended–one person whose pretensions live and die with himself. . .” [don’t forget these last words which will later be picked up verbatim by Dave Hunt]
(William Burgh, Lectures on the Second Advent, pp. 64, 65).
“Secondly, the nature of these same acts and pretensions prove that the ‘man of sin’ is not the Pope.” (William Burgh, Lectures on the Second Advent, p. 65).James H. Todd was likewise categorical in his denial of the Papacy as the Antichrist. His lectures for 1838 were later published as Discourses on the Prophecies Relating to Antichrist in the Writings of Daniel and St. Paul. The book was dedicated to Samuel Maitland.
The basic tenets of Todd’s concept are:




    • Antichrist will be an individual who will appear at the end of the world just before the second coming of Christ.
    • The evil deeds of the Antichrist will be connected with the Jews rather than the Gentiles. In fact, the Antichrist will sit in a rebuilt Jerusalem Temple.
    • His period of rule will be for 1260 literal days.
    • The fourth kingdom of Daniel 7 is not the Roman Empire and the horns are not fulfilled in the Roman Empire.

In other words, the fourth kingdom will at some future period be established upon the earth. (Froom, PFF, III, p. 661).
Todd went so far as to say that “Romanism [is] not properly an apostacy from the faith”. He also states: “. . . the Errors of Romanism do not amount to Apostasy.”
And amazingly, he affirms: “The Church of Rome [is] a true Christian Church.” (James H. Todd, Discourses on the Prophecies Relating to Antichrist in the Writings of Daniel and St. Paul, pp. xv, 259-267, 320-321, 322-323).
Protestants of the Church of England were now applying the futuristic and literalistic hermeneutic they had acquired from the Society of Jesus!! No wonder they could no longer detect the Papacy as the predicted Antichrist of Bible prophecy.


The concepts of Todd and Burgh were foundational to what has become known as the Oxford Tractarian Movement. To make a long story short, this movement lasted from 1833-1845. [Don’t let the dates pass you by. During the identical time frame but on the other side of the Atlantic, the Millerite Movement was going full steam ahead].
During this period a series of ninety Tracts for the Times were prepared with the express purpose of “deprotestantizing” the Church of England. The principal writers were Newman, Pusey, Keble, Froude and Williams. These men seized upon the writings of Maitland, Burgh and Todd to absolve the Papacy from the stigma of being called the Antichrist. Protestants were openly encouraged to return to Catholicism and to accept the Bishop of Rome as the legitimate leader of the Christian world.
The movement toward Rome was driven by the literalistic prophetic principles of futurism. If the Papacy was not the predicted Antichrist, then what was to keep Protestantism from reuniting with Rome? It was in this way that the counterfeit hermeneutic of literalistic futurism led to an ecumenical spirit [as will happen at the end as well]. As the historicist hermeneutic had given Protestantism its driving force and the courage to separate from Rome, so futurism stalled the progress of Protestantism and led it to seek a reunion with Rome.
The climax of the Oxford Movement came when John Henry Newman defected from the Church of England and joined the Roman Catholic Church. He had been one of the prime movers of this movement. Twenty nine of the 90 tracts were composed by Newman. Though he had previously spoken harsh words against the Papacy, in 1843 he “published a retraction of all the hard sayings he had formerly said against Rome.” Finally, in 1845 he was received into the Roman communion, leaving Oxford for Rome where, in 1846, he was ordained a priest and later given a D. D. degree by the pope.
In 1847 he returned to England, where he continued to reside. In 1854 Newman was called to Dublin as rector of the newly established Catholic University, and in 1879 he was given the cardinal’s hat.
 
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brakelite

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Now we must take a look at another movement in Great Britain which was destined to derail the Protestant prophetic hermeneutic.
In 1825 a small group of men, dissatisfied with the spiritual condition of the Protestant Church in Ireland, met in Dublin to spiritually strengthen one another. Soon other groups were formed in Ireland and in England. The most famous of these was the one in Plymouth.
This group came to be known as the Plymouth Brethren. Among the notables in these fellowships were Edward Irving, Dr. S. P. Tregelles and John Nelson Darby (who joined in 1827). At some point during this time, Edward Irving heard some mysterious utterances in an unknown tongue telling him that there was going to be a secret rapture of the church before the visible coming of Jesus.
This was a new concept in the incredible journey of futurism. Futurists
themselves will admit that this idea was alien to the Christian church until the 19th century. Dr. S. P. Tregelles, who, as we have noted, for some time belonged to the Plymouth Brethren movement but later abandoned it describes Irving’s experience:
“I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an utterance in Mr. Irving’s church, from what was there received as being the Voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God.” (S. P. Tregelles, The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming, first published in 1864, and now available at Ambassadors for Christ, Los Angeles, California).
From 1830 onward, a series of conferences were held at Powerscourt Castle in Ireland. We know that Edward Irving attended some of these as did John Nelson Darby and other key leaders of the Plymouth Brethren. At these meetings literalistic futurism became the prophetic methodology of choice and the idea of the secret rapture was adopted. The views established at these conferences soon spread like grassfire and penetrated other denominations.
We must say a few words about John Nelson Darby. He was born in Ireland in 1800 and died in 1882. He was a brilliant law student at
Westminster Trinity College. Though Darby was intellectually brilliant, physically, he left much to be desired. A brother of Cardinal Newman, who was a good friend of Darby’s describes his physical traits:
“. . . a most remarkable man, who rapidly gained an immense sway over me. His bodily presence was indeed ‘weak.’ A fallen cheek, a blood-shot eye, crippled limbs resting on crutches, a seldom shaven beard, a shabby suit of clothes, and a generally neglected person, drew at first pity, with wonder to see such a figure in a drawing room.” (Quoted in McDougall, The Rapture of the Saints, p. 45).
Darby soon broke with the Church of England and embraced literalistic futurism with a vengeance. Undoubtedly, one of the main reasons why he did not discern the Papacy as the Antichrist was his total disdain for
history. He once remarked: “I do not want history to tell me Nineveh or Babylon is ruined or Jerusalem in the hands of the Gentiles. I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy.” (Quoted in, Oswald T. Allis, Prophecy and the Church [Philadelphia: The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company], 1977, p. 26).
In the historicist method, a knowledge of history is of critical importance because it provides the reference point for the understanding of prophecy. But in futurism, an understanding of history is superfluous.
It is of great importance to realize that between 1859 and 1874, Darby made six trips to the United States where he was warmly welcomed and his views were eagerly adopted.
Darby’s writings, however, would have been forgotten had it not been for Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). Scofield was converted in 1879 and, though he had no theological training, he was ordained a Congregationalist minister three years later. At this time, Darby’s books were gathering dust in the few libraries where they could be found. But when Scofield discovered them, he came up with the idea of incorporating Darby’s futuristic ideas into a series of footnotes in the King James Bible. Thus in 1909, the famous Scofield Reference Bible was born. Soon, the notes were considered as inspired as the Bible itself. Even today, this is the Bible of choice among Protestants who uphold a futurist
outlook of Bible prophecy.
Before we move on to speak of the baleful influence of futurism upon contemporary Protestantism, it would be well to quote various scholars who trace the origins of preterism and futurism to Alcazar and Ribera. We will begin with George Eldon Ladd:
“It would probably come as a shock to many modern futurists to be told that the first scholar in relatively modern times who returned to the patristic futuristic interpretation was a Spanish Jesuit named Ribera. In 1590 Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem, abolish Christianity, deny Christ, persecute the Church and rule the world for three and a half years.” (George Eldon Ladd, The Blessed Hope, Grand Rapids: Eerdman’s, 1972, p. 37).
Next we will quote Joseph Tanner: “ So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist. Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.
The Jesuit Alcasar devoted himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly noticed, and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy. On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal Power by bringing out the Futurist system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half years.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], pp. 16, 17).
Dean Henry Alford in the “Prolegomena” of his Greek Testament, declares: “The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times. . . appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A. D. 1580.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351).
Alford also states: “The Preterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of, in the times of primitive Christianity. . . The view is said to have been first promulgated in any thing like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar. . . in 1614.” (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, pp. 348, 349).
Even the Roman Catholic, G. S. Hitchcock, states: “The Futuristic School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation. . . The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A. D.” (G. S. Hitchcock, The Beasts and the Little Horn, p. 7).
Well has Tanner remarked: “It is a matter for deep regret that those who hold and advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are thus really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist.
It has been well said that ‘Futurism tends to obliterate the brand put by the Holy Spirit upon Popery.’ More especially is this to be deplored at a time when the Papal Antichrist seems to be making an expiring effort to regain his former hold on men’s minds.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], p. 17).
 
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brakelite

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And what about conservative Protestantism today? The fact is that they have not only swallowed these futuristic views hook, line and sinker, but they have swallowed the fishing pole and fisherman as well!! In fact, they have taken the literalistic hermeneutic of futurism so far that it borders on the ridiculous.
Evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and other born-again Christians have proliferated futurism around the globe. This phenomenal growth has been due to four main factors:

  1. The influence of the Scofield Reference Bible. This annotated Bible provides a futuristic and literalistic interpretation of the little horn of Daniel 7 seeing it as a future individual world dictator who will rule the world for three and a half literal years from a rebuilt Jerusalem temple. On the other hand, this same Bible manifests a touch of preterism by interpreting the little horn of Daniel 8 as a symbol of Antiochus Epiphanes [see the footnotes in the Scofield Reference Bible, pp. 909, 910].
  2. The proliferation of television evangelists. For example, Jack Van Impe showed his unabashed admiration for Pope John Paul II by repeatedly stating on his television program: “What a man!!”
  3. A plethora of both fiction and “ non-fiction” books. For example, Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins have written a series of Christian thrillers which explore the last days. The titles tell it all: Left Behind: A Novel ofthe Earth’s Last Days; Tribulation Force: The Continuing Drama of Those Left Behind; Nicolae: The Rise of Antichrist; Soul Harvest: The World Takes Sides; Appollyon: The Destroyer is Unleashed; Assassins: Assignment: Jerusalem, Target: Antichrist. This series has sold over 10 million copies and was on the New York Times best seller list for months!! Jenkins states: “The purpose was to encourage the church and to persuade unbelievers. We have found that people are reading the Bible again because of it and many have become believers” (The Costco Connection, “Arts and Entertainment”, March 2000, p. 49). The question is: Believers in what? Are people reading the Bible through the futurist eyeglasses of these novels? Even more amazing is the comment made by LaHaye: “I’m hearing from church pastors all over the world (the series has been published in at least 14 languages) and they’re telling me that the books are the best evangelistic tools they’ve ever seen. It’s gratifying to see so much interest in this story because, of any of the major world religions, Christianity has the most exciting story to tell about the future.” (The Costco Connection, “Arts and Entertainment”, March 2000, p. 49). Here LaHaye lauds the world-wide evangelistic thrust of futurism through the message of these books. Thus, futurism is being exported to every nation, kindred, tongue and people!!
  4. The multiplication of thriller movies such as The Omega Code, and Left Behind. I have personally seen The Omega Code. It is pure, untarnished, unvarnished futurism and literalism. The number of proponents of the futuristic scenario is legion. Among the main prognosticators are: Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins, Grant Jeffrey, John Walvoord, John Hagee, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe, Jack LeLonde, Dave Hunt, David Jeremiah, Zola Levitt, Arno Froese, Pat Robertson, Randall Price, Dwight Pentecost and ad infinitum.
 

BreadOfLife

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This is a Bible study BoL. This isn't my personal opinion being laid against your church.
How can you correct me when I have been using infallible Catholic sources from councils and history as recorded by Catholic historians, one a cardinal no less! You have NOT corrected me BoL. What I have posted is a clear honest detailed exposition of the characteristics and criteria that God has attached to the little horn power of Daniel 7. They are not opinions. It is a Bible study. Try and prove me wrong by all means, but simple statements of denial don't cut it against clear Biblical exegesis.
It is not my fault, nor is it error, nor is it coincidence that those very same criteria, as proved by the Catholic sources I have been quoting, not only apply to the little horn power of Daniel 7 (the Antichrist) but they also fit perfectly as an accurate descriptive of the Catholic church. What you do with that information is entirely up to you. I cannot make you see what you have sworn not to see. Deny all you want. Your denials don't alter the facts.
Uhhhhhhh, no.
What YOU are posting are largely excerpts from the works of the anti-Catholic Seventh Day Adventist Author Stephen P. Bohr.

Tell me something - WHO made this moron the go-to "expert" on the prophecies of Daniel?? They smack largely of SDA founder and false prophetess, Ellen G. White's perversions. And, it's no wonder, being that HE is a pastor of that cultish sect.

The same, tired, impotent SDA anti-Catholic drivel that's been regurgitated for the last 150 years.
MANY Christians don't even consider you guys "true" Christians - but a cult.

If that's where you want to go - then why don't we start with the "real" foundations of YOUR sect??
Do you want to discuss the false prophecies of your originator, William Miller and the "Great Disappointment"??
OR
, should we concentrate on your perverse, anti-Biblical doctrines like Soul Sleep??
Perhaps, we should delve into some of your offshoots, like the Branch Davidians and David Koresh??

I guess it doesn't really matter because - wherever we start - it's a bumpy ride . . .
 
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brakelite

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Uhhhhhhh, no.
What YOU are posting are largely excerpts from the works of the anti-Catholic Seventh Day Adventist Author Stephen P. Bohr.

Tell me something - WHO made this moron the go-to "expert" on the prophecies of Daniel?? They smack largely of SDA founder and false prophetess, Ellen G. White's perversions. And, it's no wonder, being that HE is a pastor of that cultish sect.

The same, tired, impotent SDA anti-Catholic drivel that's been regurgitated for the last 150 years.
MANY Christians don't even consider you guys "true" Christians - but a cult.

If that's where you want to go - then why don't we start with the "real" foundations of YOUR sect??
Do you want to discuss the false prophecies of your originator, William Miller and the "Great Disappointment"??
OR
, should we concentrate on your perverse, anti-Biblical doctrines like Soul Sleep??
Perhaps, we should delve into some of your offshoots, like the Branch Davidians and David Koresh??

I guess it doesn't really matter because - wherever we start - it's a bumpy ride . . .
Or we could just stay where we are and attempt to refute that which is presented. Again you are typically shooting the messenger because you hate the message...and have no real argument against it. Of course you can keep up the bluster, the insults, and the anguished frustrated stress filled repartee to have the thread removed or locked, but I am not participating in a childish spat fest with you.
On the other hand, I would be only too happy to discuss those other matters on another thread.
 

BreadOfLife

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Or we could just stay where we are and attempt to refute that which is presented. Again you are typically shooting the messenger because you hate the message...and have no real argument against it. Of course you can keep up the bluster, the insults, and the anguished frustrated stress filled repartee to have the thread removed or locked, but I am not participating in a childish spat fest with you.
On the other hand, I would be only too happy to discuss those other matters on another thread.
That's just it - you HAVE been refuted.
You simply refuse to have a conversation about this fact as you blather onto other topics without addressing any of the refutations.

Soooooo, since you won't respond - I think we should expand this thread to include the MANY bizarre beliefs of your sect (Seventh Day Adventism), along with some of the quotes of your false prophets William Miller and Ellen G. White.

Nobody is "shooting the messenger" here.
I'm just trying to keep him honest . . .
 
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brakelite

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That's just it - you HAVE been refuted.
You simply refuse to have a conversation about this fact as you blather onto other topics without addressing any of the refutations.

Soooooo, since you won't respond
I have just spent the last 10 minutes or so going over the entire thread, and would state here that there is not ONE post of yours, or Kepha's, Or Philips, that I did not respond to. I addressed every one of your so-called refutations, with sound counter-argument, which you did not respond to. You are not reading the thread, but simply firing blanks. And your attempts to way-lay the thread into other topics is a great tactic if you cannot answer the original topic ...prophecy and the parallels between the little horn of Daniel 7 and the RCC. (The term 'Roman' was another attempt to divert the direction of the thread...not working). Those parallels BoL are irrefutable. Those criteria that the Bible demands are irrefutable. How those criteria are met in the RCC is irrefutable. They all amount to why the reformation started in the first place. They did not originate with Pastor Bohr, nor Ellen White, nor William Miller. They started with the inspired writer of the prophecies themselves, Daniel. Catholic scholars reading scripture and discovering this Truth, and being hounded out of the church they loved and killed because they loved Truth more than their own lives, is continuing to this day. Like you and your friends would so love to hound us out of this forum.
 

BreadOfLife

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I have just spent the last 10 minutes or so going over the entire thread, and would state here that there is not ONE post of yours, or Kepha's, Or Philips, that I did not respond to. I addressed every one of your so-called refutations, with sound counter-argument, which you did not respond to. You are not reading the thread, but simply firing blanks. And your attempts to way-lay the thread into other topics is a great tactic if you cannot answer the original topic ...prophecy and the parallels between the little horn of Daniel 7 and the RCC. (The term 'Roman' was another attempt to divert the direction of the thread...not working). Those parallels BoL are irrefutable. Those criteria that the Bible demands are irrefutable. How those criteria are met in the RCC is irrefutable. They all amount to why the reformation started in the first place. They did not originate with Pastor Bohr, nor Ellen White, nor William Miller. They started with the inspired writer of the prophecies themselves, Daniel. Catholic scholars reading scripture and discovering this Truth, and being hounded out of the church they loved and killed because they loved Truth more than their own lives, is continuing to this day. Like you and your friends would so love to hound us out of this forum.
WRONG.

The prophecies are from Daniel.
The interpretations of the prophecies are ALL from SDA adherents.

I find it comical that you try to pass these off as "legitimate" interpretations of Scripture - when MOST of your Protestant brethren don't even take you guys seriously. In fact - MANY of your Protestant siblings consider you to be a cult with your man made inventions like "Soul Sleep." Ummmmmm, any more false prophecies about the 2nd Coming on the horizon??

As to the term "Roman" - that's fine. You can continue to use it incorrectly because it shows your continual ignorance.

Finally - I would never dream of "hounding" you out of this forum. By all means - bring it on.
Your posts are precisely the kind of mindless drivel that make MY mission here so simple . . .
 
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brakelite

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WRONG.

The prophecies are from Daniel.
The interpretations of the prophecies are ALL from SDA adherents.

I find it comical that you try to pass these off as "legitimate" interpretations of Scripture - when MOST of your Protestant brethren don't even take you guys seriously. In fact - MANY of your Protestant siblings consider you to be a cult with your man made inventions like "Soul Sleep." Ummmmmm, any more false prophecies about the 2nd Coming on the horizon??

As to the term "Roman" - that's fine. You can continue to use it incorrectly because it shows your continual ignorance.

Finally - I would never dream of "hounding" you out of this forum. By all means - bring it on.
Your posts are precisely the kind of mindless drivel that make MY mission here so simple . . .
Yet even in this response you haven't offered Amy real refutation of those interpretations you are still firng blanks and bluster.
 

epostle1

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Yet even in this response you haven't offered Amy real refutation of those interpretations you are still firng blanks and bluster.
A forum masochist is one who gets pleasure out of being beaten.
A forum sadist is one who chronically lies to inflict as much pain as possible on others.
A forum sadomasochist is one sick puppy.
 

epostle1

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Seventh-day Adventism cannot change its views on the Catholic Church being the Whore of Babylon without admitting that it was wrong on Sunday worship. It cannot admit that Sunday worship is not the mark of the beast without changing its views on the Jewish Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventism cannot cease to be anti-Catholic without ceasing to be Seventh-day Adventism.
Seventh-day Adventism | Catholic Answers


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brakelite

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A forum masochist is one who gets pleasure out of being beaten.
A forum sadist is one who chronically lies to inflict as much pain as possible on others.
A forum sadomasochist is one sick puppy.
You just can't help yourself. Unable to refute the actual information in any of the above posts, you resort to this. Why can you not simply address the topic at hand? So far I have dealt with 7 of the 10 or so criteria required to identify the little horn of Daniel 7 and its remarkable resemblance to Catholicism. Neither you nor BoL have actually talked or discussed any one of those criteria...in fact you insist on taking the discussion anywhere else BUT the topic. BoL wanted to make a big deal about my use of the word "Roman". That the little horn is Roman is without dispute. It grows from the Roman head. That the Catholic Church is in Rome is without dispute. Without any reference to seven hills. BoL also attempted to justify the confessional. Whether the confessional is right or wrong wasn't the point. The point is that the little horn was prophesied to "speak great things". Now claiming to have the power and authority to forgive sin is most assuredly a "great thing". The claim to infallibility is also a "great thing" surely. Then BoL claimed that the pagan Roman couldn't possibly exist any longer, that any prophecy saying it would must be false. Seriously? There are vestiges of pagan Rome throughout society. In our calendars, our measurements, forms of government, language, architecture, and yes, even in your religion. (See pic below). Pagan Rome is still very much with us, as are the remains of Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece. All four are not yet completely destroyed Da 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
That all four powers still exists today is evidenced by the last day appearance of the beast of Revelation 13 which has components of all four powers inherent in its make-up.
Kepha popped in for a brief moment and I answered her challenge then she ran away. Your attempt above, well, par for the course really.
But I agree with you regarding Seventh Day Adventist's position with regards the papacy and Sunday. No reason why they should change. Not quite with incorrect view regards the whore...BoL's allusion to the rest of Protestantism not in line with SDAs on these matters is absolutely correct, but it isn't a sign we are wrong, but rather a sign they have apostatised from the truths they once held and have gone back to Rome and with Rome are now forming the whore. Babylon the Great isn't only Rome. It is the Mother and her returned prodigal daughters.
 
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brakelite

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As for your meme above...God withheld truth from who until 1844? The reformation began a long time before the reformation, and various Christians throughout the earth had the truth a long long time before 1844. That in 1844 and beyond God gave more information that made old truths more clear, is what SDAs believe. Clever strawman, but I'm not buying it.
 
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brakelite

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So far in dealing with the little horn we have dealt with 7 specific criteria that mark its character and nature.
1. Grew out of Rome, therefore is Roman by nature.
2. Came up after the fall of the empire in the west. (476AD)
3. Came up after the establishment of the 10 kingdoms that replaced pagan Rome, 7 of which constituted the foundation of modern Europe.
4. Uprooted three of the above ten horns.
5. Speaks great words...boasts of great things.
6. It persecuted the saints.
7. Would think to change times and laws.

So far I haven't quite completed number 7. Up to this time however it can be seen that thus far there can only be one power in history which meets all the criteria above.
To conclude number 7 is a simple task, and simply a reminder of what most protestants are already aware. Most powers, whether they be political or religious, when beginning to establish their identity upon their constituency or parish, rewrite the law books at least to some degree that constitute the character of the new administration. This is not an uncommon occurrence...it is typical of every change of administration, and of every change in leadership, even in clubs and corporations. So for God to mark an intention to change laws as a specific mark of character that identifies this little horn in contrast with other powers, because the changing of laws is not particularly special or significant, then it must be the laws themselves that are significantly special. It must also be significant that this power only "thinks" to change those laws. In other words, the laws themselves do not actually change, despite this powers intentions, purpose, and even actions to do so. What laws could possibly stand regardless of attempts to change them by an earthly power? The laws of God, namely, the Ten Commandments. So was there a religious power that arose in the 5th century, gained autonomy after the establishment of the 10 barbarian nations that overtook Rome, boasted great things, persecuted the saints, had a hand in destroying three opposing powers, changed prophetic hermeneutics, and has attempted to change the Ten Commandments?
 
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