The Real Global Fall of Presbyterianism? (theory)

[Mike Dwight]

Hm, really? Anyway, My interest concerns to simple US Religion Census data. http://www.usreligioncensus.org/press_release/ACP 20120501.pdf See here as anyone expects, religious people have children and Churches grow generally. I had already checked the US Census at my library. The census gave over some 7 Millions of Presbyterians in different US eras such as 1920's or 1950's, but today, all Presbyterian Census denominations come to about 3 million, because their children leave. Looks like the new, Korean Created, and Korean Voluntary, Korean Presbyterian Church Abroad from 1970's to 1990's to today from the Mother Church Presbyterian Church of Korea, is also right here in the census! Fascinating! Now my main topic is proper etiquette for the renaissance man! Religion in America: Demographic Maps | U.S. Religion Census

 

[Dave L]

I recommend a good book to you: "Princeton v. The New Divinity."

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll try to find a copy for my library.

 

[Dave L]

In note to some replies... Dominionism seems like some 80's term for just how things used to be done. Would anyone doubt that President Andrew Jackson first was a totally depraved and saved Presbyterian led by Religion first and that we were for 4 years minimum under a "Reformed Governance"? I think it was exactly what candidate Romney would disagree from entirely their free conscience or say when John F Kennedy was Not the Pope's Man in the Whitehouse.

That is a personal man's quality rather than the Establishment of Religion in government Constitution, such as the Confederate States of America Constitution. Our first anthem "Hail Columbia" is quite agreeable to Reformed Religion since the pre-1830s immigration wave americans, of English, Scots and Dutch immigration in huge majority are Reformed.

I mean the Church always wanted control from governments. I've been looking into how different CHurches held what form of power in reference to European Monarchies , say for instance, when Elizabeth was Crowned for England, Ireland and France, defended Huguenots in France, for example. Queen Elizabeth is depicted as humble submitting person to a revolutionary Church. I'd heard her coronation parade was themed around this, children with Bibles and poems and roses. Emperor Napoleon allowed the Pope's attendance but Crowned himself. Queen Catherine almost similarly is handed the instruments of Power in Orthodox Russia. Interesting studies between the Older three-branch check and balances! Monarch, Church, and People!

In regard to Dominionism, Calvin had once drawn the comparison between the Holy Stairs in Rome. (They're still proudly there! Imagine all the kneeling medieval people with hurt knees!) People should be Directed, in Personal Responsibility with this Theology, a Kingdom Now is Comparable wording I guess.

First, thanks for posting your findings. I believe the "lesser magistrate" doctrine and Luther's "dual morality" run astray of Christian ethics so I always shied away from them. This would include the physical kingdom aspects of dominion postmillennialism. Basically, I stick to classic Amillennialism with a spiritual kingdom only.

 

[Mike Dwight]

Good reads sir Dave L. Anything on Autocephaly or the Churches that were under the Byzantine Empire, because I read Calvin's "lesser magistrate" and I'm just trying to discover scholarly sources. The Orthodox bishops would usually be under the Emperor's direction, God-appointed as well, such as when Constantine saved that poor woman dancer for his wife, Theodora, and outlawed adultery, and wasn't the hagia Sophia her dedication? Something like that? The Nations in the Byzantine Empire, said an orthodox priest, saw the model of the Western Europe, and split off in independence, supposedly by the brainwashed Greek-in-Turkey, the end of the Empire. I'm interested in autocephaly academic sources. My denomination shall meet in the great ancient synods, but only, with clergy of presbyter rank and no higher, to discuss the true source of greek civilization, and how to make names, slightly, slightly, relatable to members.

 

[Dave L]

I am not a Christian Dominionist, but you do make me chuckle at your programed response to what they supposedly believe. But, I have to remind myself that there was a time when I didn't know any better either.

Some are as crazy as ISIS.

 

[Willie T]

Some are as crazy as ISIS.

Yes, and some Dispensationalists are weirded-out freaks too. To wit: Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, and some Dispensationalists are weirded-out freaks too. To wit: Westboro Baptist Church.

The problem is in whether or not the kingdom is physical or spiritual. Spiritual kingdom Postmillennialism takes over the world through changed hearts for Christ. Physical kingdom Postmillennialism takes over by force which is totally at odds with Christ.

 

[Willie T]

The problem is in whether or not the kingdom is physical or spiritual. Spiritual kingdom Postmillennialism takes over the world through changed hearts for Christ. Physical kingdom Postmillennialism takes over by force which is totally at odds with Christ.

And it is the first example, not the second, that is the actual view of Dominion Theology. Unfortunately, just the opposite has been widely propagated.

 

[Dave L]

And it is the first example, not the second, that is the actual view of Dominion Theology. Unfortunately, just the opposite has been widely propagated.

It's a broad area with some real crackpots in it.

 

[Willie T]

It's a broad area with some real crackpots in it.

Not really. Can you name any that espouse this "military" dominance? I can't. And I know more about them than the average person. (True, I can name several people opposed to them who get on shaky soap boxes to claim that as loudly as they can.)

 

[Dave L]

Not really. Can you name any that espouse this "military" dominance? I can't. And I know more about them than the average person. (True, I can name several people opposed to them who get on shaky soap boxes to claim that as loudly as they can.)

Christian Extremism as a Domestic Terror Threat A Monograph by MAJ Frederick D. Wong United States Army

Dominion and Reconstruction Theology Dominion theology, also known as Dominionism and Dominion Theory, takes its name from Genesis 1:26-31, where God grants human beings “dominion” over all creation. A departure from evangelicalism and a more radical interpretation of Calvinism, Dominionist Christians control at least six television networks and over 2,000 religious radio stations nationwide to promote their message to millions.21 The most well-known Dominionist Christians are Pat Robertson of the Christian Coalition and Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority. Dominionism preaches that Jesus called for Christians to build the kingdom of God in the present, politicizing faith towards the establishment of a Christian state. Socio-political views among Dominionist Christian leaders vary, but the more extreme fundamentalist views consist of the abolition of civil rights laws, labor unions, public schools, denial of citizenship for nonChristians, and the removal of women in the work force to serve in the household. In addition, the federal government would empower church organizations to run social-welfare programs and all schools. The end state would be a godly America where the only legitimate voices are Christian. 22 Similarly, Reconstruction theology, also known as Reconstructionism and Reconstruction Theory, preaches the reconstruction of America into a Christian state. Based on the belief that Christians are destined to dominate the world, Christian Reconstructionism calls for Biblical law to replace secular legal code. Promoted through social welfare organizations such as the National Right to Life and Operation Blessings that provide support to pregnancy clinics, drug rehabilitation, and other charities, this fundamentalist ideology is immersed in the American mainstream.23 21Chris Hedges, American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America, (New York: Free Press, 2006), 10. 22Ibid, 14. 23Ibid, 12. 13 The underlying theme of Dominionism and Reconstructionism is the higher calling to do God’s will where Biblical law overrules secular law, especially when the secular law is perceived as immoral. It is this belief that motivates militant anti-abortionists to resort to violence to save innocent, unborn children from an immoral law that sentences them to death.

https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=697463

 

[Willie T]

As I just got through saying, of course you can find people on their soap boxes decrying anything and everything. You've just demonstrated that.

BTW, did you actually read, I mean, slowly and carefully read, that report excerpt you quoted? I suspect not. There is so much wrong with it that I can scarcely believe anyone wouldn't be ashamed to write it. (The most unbelievable is his idea that secular law [man's law] should supersede God's .)

 

[Dave L]

As I just got through saying, of course you can find people on their soap boxes decrying anything and everything. You've just demonstrated that.

BTW, did you actually read, I mean, slowly and carefully read, that book excerpt you quoted? I suspect not. There is so much wrong with it that I can scarcely believe anyone wouldn't be ashamed to write it. (The most unbelievable is his idea that secular law [man's law] should supersede God's .)

They are that crazy. The Fringe Theology That Could End Religious Freedom

 

[Mike Dwight]

Pat Robertson the Calvinist who says Presbyterians are the spirit of the Antichrist? That'd be funny. I don't think he's a Calvinist. That's a small group. Why are you focused down in the strict extremist organizations? What about Establishmentarianism, or the root from Disestablishmentarianism or the campaigns to disestablish the Churches of England or Scotland from politics. See, then conformists in those denominations like if Dixie established the Presbyterians are doing something good in your community, right? That can be the end of a logical sequential philosophy. You sound all like persecutorial law like the "The Handmaidens" , gross tv series. Its from the 70's and anti-abortionists Christians take over in the apocalypse, and the women they don't like become forced surrogate mother handmaidens I guess.

 

[Dave L]

Pat Robertson the Calvinist who says Presbyterians are the spirit of the Antichrist? That'd be funny. I don't think he's a Calvinist. That's a small group. Why are you focused down in the strict extremist organizations? What about Establishmentarianism, or the root from Disestablishmentarianism or the campaigns to disestablish the Churches of England or Scotland from politics. See, then conformists in those denominations like if Dixie established the Presbyterians are doing something good in your community, right? That can be the end of a logical sequential philosophy. You sound all like persecutorial law like the "The Handmaidens" , gross tv series. Its from the 70's and anti-abortionists Christians take over in the apocalypse, and the women they don't like become forced surrogate mother handmaidens I guess.

Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual only. Not physical and never will be. Spiritual Kingdom Postmillennialism changes hearts and leaves politics alone. All physical kingdom millenarianism is unscriptural and inevitably leads to violence.

 

[Mike Dwight]

I don't even know what that means, though. Don't place the bricks that make all these churches around?

 

[tzcho2]

Yes, and some Dispensationalists are weirded-out freaks too. To wit: Westboro Baptist Church.

Make no mistake Westboro was neither baptist nor dispensationalists nor Christian. The Westboro group mostly consisted of members of one family that of the twisted Fred phelps who was an abusive, religious dictatorial leader - who acted like a controlling cult leader. This racist evil spewing group had nothing to do with Baptists, preaching scripture, God, Jesus, a church, Christianity, the bible , nor dispensationalism. There is no admission test for racist freaks to call themselves whatever they want in the USA.

 

[Earburner]

In no more than 50 years, the Church would be so totally broken by being so central in politics. Anti-miscegenation, Jim Crow, which might have been a "Characteristic" of a "Particular Peoples Relationship", Cosmopolitanism and heritage-centric would be frowned upon, especially seeing Teddy Roosevelt of New York would declare English the language, American the nationality.

So I mentioned a 7 Million total that no outside force helped create in 1950 as was a steady total. President Eisenhower was the "champion of Freedom", the "uncle we never had", the "liberator of Europe", in which every quote deals with the "freedom seeking out the darkness in every corner", who never won an election from any Deep South state, extended and built our international Highway system. He right in office , chose Presbyterianism for his religious Political Office Leadership, staying only if "it stood for liberty god dammit" as he told the pastor. This reorganized almost Every Presbyterian I'm aware of in a "United Presbyterian Church" in 1958. This stood for a hollow establishment of Presbyterianism, hardly consulted, in a national campaign for a religious America. Very clearly rejecting Every bit of the political movement previously detailed, from the pew of "Abraham Lincoln", Eisenhower would retire in Gettysburgh Pennsylvania. Most imagery of this new church would be post-1900 imagery of the Statue of Liberty, or our recent national anthem. I find a violation of conscience similar to the defeated Nazis, to be indoctrinated with national recitation, Eisenhowers Pledge of Allegiance, idolatry of a flag, so forth. These are facts, it was a counter-intellectual move to lean on counter-facts, recitation, and lock-step measures.

The Presbyterian Church in America did break off from the United Presbyterian Church in the 70's and the remainder evolved into the PC (USA) today.

Here is my strongly felt theory and congratulations for reading this far. Far flung African nations and their Scottish Churches aren't a large concern. What I believe happened to the Presbyterian Church is that Ahn Chang Ho and the mission by the USA Horace Underwood to Korea, which Korea currently has 6 million "Presbyterians", in English anyway. Our government wished to counter quite a Number of Presbyterian claims, the alliance that should exist among non-nationalist Christians in the 1900's with an accepting King Gojong of Korea. The free Native Government of the State of Korea. Eisenhower's quest for Liberty saw an allowance of wild soldiers taking warbrides all over the peninsula, correct? Hello Maria, I'm off to Korea. Instead of a Provisional Government promoting Ahn Changho's Presbyterianism, we promoted Syngman Rhee, who quickly picked up an Austrian Bride from the UN when he took office! The first Lady of the Republic of Korea is a white woman! Such is the, revolutionary? quaint? odd? The particularity of Eisenhower's vision of modern ethics.​

[/QUOTEopen

Churches are in heavy decline.

No black without any part of the declaration of independence.

A conservative Canadian is a rarity. One of the admin on my forum is one.

Honestly, I don't think US society hardly ever thinks of Presbyterians.

When I lived in Scotland probably the most popular singer was Elvis Pressley.

I was a fan of the Corries.

"Honestly, I don't think US society hardly ever thinks of Presbyterians."
> By trying to follow the OP, is it any wonder?
It's an open buffet of religion mixed with politics!
Who cares, except maybe "Religionists" .

 

[Earburner]

Correction:

CoreIssue wrote:
"Honestly, I don't think US society hardly ever thinks of Presbyterians."

> By trying to follow the OP, is it any wonder?
It's an open buffet of religion mixed with politics!
Who cares, except maybe "Religionists" .

 

[Helen]

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