The Real Global Fall of Presbyterianism? (theory)

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Mike Dwight

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I don't have a background in Princeton Theology. It wouldn't help me out with the question, if you think about it! I have just been digging at this for 10 years on and off. I will try to assert essential facts first and save all theory for later.

Presbyterianism, as a Denominational Banner, is in sharp decline from the late 20th Century. There is a Uniting Church of Australia that has claimed two-thirds of the Presbyterian Church. True, they retain Synods, but in most ways notice this subordinate structure, no longer Presbyterian-named. There is a United Church of Canada similarly which is the largest church after Catholics that claimed many Presbyterians. There are 80 million Reformed heritage persons in the World, in which Presbyterians are strong members of that heritage. The only substantial presences in the world of Presbyterians, we'll note a foundational establishment in Scotland, places where their missionaries were allowed to be the cleanup crew in Africa during the Empire, the United States, and mission targets for Americans like Mexico, Brazil, or Korea. This mostly sums up the historical mission from Presbyterians. There are several millions 'currently' in any of these named locations, at a rough guess about 16 million Presbyterians.

There are several Denomination fragments in the United States. This is very important around the globe for the United States as an opinion leader. There are dramatic movements if we visit the Library for a US census. In 1950, there was a larger Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, I recall, 7 million. What's odd about this is, if I remember correctly, about the Same number of 7 Million existed far back in a 1920 denominational census. The two US major fragmented bodies today combined would form less than 3 million elderly and shrinking members.

How would we describe the concluded journey of Presbyterianism? They were an "alliance" member of the original Protestant Reformation described as early as 1500 to 1600. More charged "British" words include confederate, covenanter, or etc. They are Not the Product of the Government of Scotland. The historical concepts of a pressing need for Religion to be part of Government, for established Godly leadership, is one concept not rejected in their Reformation. This established branch by Scottish Government in 1560 formed a Church that wished to extend its influence. The Kingdoms of Scotland and England reached Settlement in Alliance in Protestant Reformation under Queen Elizabeth I which is 1558-1601. England would tend toward Romanist, returned Catholic practice by comparison, through the rest of history, including the Anglican Church. Action would be seen from the Presbyterian Church in the Killing Times or the Bishop War which were results of the successor, King James, imposing practices in Scotland. Noting that Queen Elizabeth's Government sought to Aid the Reformed Churches formation in Scotland, Netherlands, and even Huguenot France, while sometimes Rejecting to take the Crown of these countries, and Papal Bull Excommunication as a Calvinist, I find King James' words hollow that her "settlement was right adequate and finished" or that he followed her religious settlements in practice.

The Twenty Years War is a very direct Religious War around 1648, the Catholic Pro-Hapsburgs versus the Protestant or Reformed Anti-Hapsburgs in which would be the last of the separate Scottish Kingdom's military forays. Simultaneously was the English Civil War or an offshoot of this war. The Scottish Church, which is described as having taken over government, militarily supported the Parliament for the original Reformed Religion in the Kingdoms of Scotland, England, and Ireland. The Postulation of military aid included the formation of a universal Reformed theological Document, the Westminster Confession, still very touted today. The English Church would repeal this document later, despite Scottish good faith. The Scottish Church did end up on the wrong end of the stick late in the war against Reformed Puritans, no less, when Royalist theology prevailed, wishing to preserve King Charle's refuge in Scotland from beheading and execution. Oliver Cromwell's "God is King" Puritan motto was to be satiated.

The British however, as an identity, is very strongly tied between English and Scottish. Auld Lang Syne, mainly a verbal tradition in the English speaking world, concerning the special relation Scots have with each other alone, and an ancient Celtic heritage, whereas the Anglo-Saxon-Jute invaders of the 500 AD in Angland or England, have more northern German extraction. The Scots would become apart of the English Colonies with increased immigration with the Union of the Crowns, in 1702, after the failed Darien Scheme of Scotland becoming its own overseas power. All of Scotland was claimed to be bankrupt from it.

This is therefore my understanding of the beginning of overseas mission activity. Princeton University was a central Presbyterian Theological School created during the colonial period. Presbyterians tended to be on the right side of history concerning the American Independence War, as opposed to Anglican Church leaders,fleeing back across the ocean. Almost half of those signing Independence were Scots Presbyterians. Princeton received a portrait of George Washington they hang in halls today. The older motto was "Under God's Power She Flourishes", a tip of the hat to the Elizabethan era and the feminine issues of the Religious settlement, wherewith any struggling and forming Church was only too lucky to emerge unprosecuted under a wide-tent Monarchy of any sort, especially through the Protestant lineage or Anne Boleyne and to Queen Elizabeth, and all that sorted famous mess.

The Presbyterians solidly get the wrong end of warfare, its outside my choice to say, during the US Civil War. We have interesting historical Irish Union recruitment songs as each man sees himself by his heritage and also his State. However, formationally in Confederate Government is the Sovereign Character of States under an Almighty God that at the outset was meshing up with the Presbyterian Church. We can say the Original Puritan Colonists, the First Thanksgiving National Holiday 'reconciliation measure' by Abraham Lincoln, and other Puritan Reformed traditions, meshed up in a way to identify the Presbyterians with the original Puritans and First American Residents, in a move, that is largely irretrievable today, or, difficult to sort out. Not that Presbyterians shout South Will Rise Again and down with immigrants but the US Presbyterian Church began catering to a particular flock and motive of identification of Native-Born peoples of the Americas in a new US church. Some other incidences of this is the placement of Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson in religious figurehead. Both Anglican and Presbyterian Church properties seemed heavily persecuted post-war. As President Jefferson Davis named the "God of our Fathers" in the time of "Oliver Cromwell".

In fact, the next Presbyterian in office, Princeton scholar somehow still revered today by the Church, President Woodrow Wilson, was really a way for the country to re-unify with aging Confederate veterans. To be a Confederate was a political leaning on how states worked, as it was at the start of the country, not a declaration of sword and musket. He came in confronting New York Yankee abuses of labor in the New York Triangle Waistcoat Factory Fire. His most notable moves which he had no choice in, was Allowing the populace a new official anthem, Allowing the women's vote, while personally against all these and his family, he personally championed the "League of Nations", and the break up of the Austrian Hapsburg Empire for the native Baltics people, what a hilarious end for the Hapsburgs in WWI Austria.
 
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Mike Dwight

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In no more than 50 years, the Church would be so totally broken by being so central in politics. Anti-miscegenation, Jim Crow, which might have been a "Characteristic" of a "Particular Peoples Relationship", Cosmopolitanism and heritage-centric would be frowned upon, especially seeing Teddy Roosevelt of New York would declare English the language, American the nationality.

So I mentioned a 7 Million total that no outside force helped create in 1950 as was a steady total. President Eisenhower was the "champion of Freedom", the "uncle we never had", the "liberator of Europe", in which every quote deals with the "freedom seeking out the darkness in every corner", who never won an election from any Deep South state, extended and built our international Highway system. He right in office , chose Presbyterianism for his religious Political Office Leadership, staying only if "it stood for liberty god dammit" as he told the pastor. This reorganized almost Every Presbyterian I'm aware of in a "United Presbyterian Church" in 1958. This stood for a hollow establishment of Presbyterianism, hardly consulted, in a national campaign for a religious America. Very clearly rejecting Every bit of the political movement previously detailed, from the pew of "Abraham Lincoln", Eisenhower would retire in Gettysburgh Pennsylvania. Most imagery of this new church would be post-1900 imagery of the Statue of Liberty, or our recent national anthem. I find a violation of conscience similar to the defeated Nazis, to be indoctrinated with national recitation, Eisenhowers Pledge of Allegiance, idolatry of a flag, so forth. These are facts, it was a counter-intellectual move to lean on counter-facts, recitation, and lock-step measures.

The Presbyterian Church in America did break off from the United Presbyterian Church in the 70's and the remainder evolved into the PC (USA) today.

Here is my strongly felt theory and congratulations for reading this far. Far flung African nations and their Scottish Churches aren't a large concern. What I believe happened to the Presbyterian Church is that Ahn Chang Ho and the mission by the USA Horace Underwood to Korea, which Korea currently has 6 million "Presbyterians", in English anyway. Our government wished to counter quite a Number of Presbyterian claims, the alliance that should exist among non-nationalist Christians in the 1900's with an accepting King Gojong of Korea. The free Native Government of the State of Korea. Eisenhower's quest for Liberty saw an allowance of wild soldiers taking warbrides all over the peninsula, correct? Hello Maria, I'm off to Korea. Instead of a Provisional Government promoting Ahn Changho's Presbyterianism, we promoted Syngman Rhee, who quickly picked up an Austrian Bride from the UN when he took office! The first Lady of the Republic of Korea is a white woman! Such is the, revolutionary? quaint? odd? The particularity of Eisenhower's vision of modern ethics.
 
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Dave L

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I have a background in Princeton Theology (self study) and continue to draw heavily from it. I'm not Presbyterian per se, but feast on the wealth of biblical knowledge they held in the days of the Hodges and Warfield. Also Turretin......
 

Willie T

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The only part of Presbyterianism that even remotely interests me is Dominionism…. and much of that small wing is too fundamentalistically dogmatic for me.
 

Preacher4Truth

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The crumbling began when Finney crept in "unawares." I believe J. Vernon McGee claimed to be Presby, but his doctrine betrayed him. Both preached decisional regeneration, a false gospel that has deceived many.

That said there are many solid Presbyterian churches out there still. OPC is one. PCA seems to be as well.
 
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Dave L

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The only part of Presbyterianism that even remotely interests me is Dominionism…. and much of that small wing is too fundamentalistically dogmatic for me.
I noticed this trend in some of the Presby circles and thought it was a symptom of their Postmillennialism. "Claiming the planet for Christ" ISIS style if necessary.
 

Preacher4Truth

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I have a background in Princeton Theology (self study) and continue to draw heavily from it. I'm not Presbyterian per se, but feast on the wealth of biblical knowledge they held in the days of the Hodges and Warfield. Also Turretin......
I recommend a good book to you: "Princeton v. The New Divinity."
 
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Mike Dwight

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I'd ask, what Should be the difference between scholar, historian, and theologian, when it was the memory of Ancient civilization that formed the European languages, their great libraries, and all knowledge in their halls? Why should the library itself be altered? How many of these supposed perceptions of historical division in Presbyterianism are only brought up now in modern times? President Andrew Jackson named the Lights of Reformed Governance, which is sufficient to encompass All Presbyterians in the US, but enough from me about USA divisions.

@Dave L Thanks. Thanks to all replies. I think the narrative of Presbyterianism and Reformed Protestant Reformation is clear And a moving story. We see the Twelve Apostles that followed Jesus the Triune God. The Pope takes lineage from Saint Peter who Jesus said "to have the Keys to the Kingdom" proclaimed as the original Pope by the Vatican. This is where the 1500s Humanist revolution comes into play. No longer recite the tired Latin without understanding and check these false histories! Rome was never beloved by Jesus. If there are Twelve Apostles, then the First-Called and First-Born Saint Andrew, consider, went northwest through Civilized Greece where the Word was also proclaimed First, before Rome. Not to mention, the original Pentarchy of Orthodoxy saw power administered in five equal regions of Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Alexandria for all Christendom. Presbyterianism is a doctrinal Church since so much work must be done to reunite all Christians. Calvin had said there was not a good Pope since 400 AD. We can see how the Pope took authoritative control over Christians and the Nations. Historically, such as the Westminster Confession, we consider him AntiChrist, and The AntiChrist, which is being struck down in liberal circles recently. The Church of Christendom established the Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed, and the Presbyterian Church subscribes these under the hand of the Bishops and moderation of the Byzantine Emperor in the 400 ADs. The Pope however does not unite the Christian movement by 800 AD only respecting the Latins, and the Roman Latin descended peoples, and the Russians, Greeks and Baltics, for not being Latin, for all intents and purposes, are cast out. See that the Crusades merely sped Byzantine decline by sacking Constantinople the named "Latin Empire", in place of the Byzantines to bring Rome to the Greeks, rather than defeating a Muslim invasion that wiped places like Nicea off the map. The American Mission we can read online from Princeton Library is the "Call of Korea" co-written with the only Reverend in Korea, Reverend Horace Underwood. The concept is taken from the biblical "Call of Macedon", see how that within an already Byzantine or Roman Empire, the Holy Spirit guides the Apostles to a vision of a man from the Ancient Kingdom of Macedon within the Empire, to receive God's covenants. These covenants when the Christians do keep them with God would lead to a land of prosperity.

The Church of Scotland barely could make any progress by itself for a long time. Its fair to be ignorant of it! Most of what we talk about are going to be old ruins soon, Church Janitors. Leaving the lights on. They always say they're closing soon around here! Well a lot of themes I get universally from Scotland are a man's Fate, is a catchword against Catholicism, since predestination enters common Scottish parlance that people are to be left to a Fate. The Westminster Confession only stayed in Scotland disallowing Marriage between a true Reformed person and anyone else, so, I find little wonder how "Bonnie" here or there or the Bonnie Blue Flag or Auld Lang Syne describes a woman Pure to their race, basically.

Look, I don't really respect institutionally that that PCA was originally in the United Presbyterian Church. The easy thing to overlook is regardless, that these are Churches that fell-in lockstep with a Nazi-style bookburning to give the Nation a picture of One Flag, of One Nation, Indivisible, Under God, by Presbyterianism. Where at all is the joke here? And Presbyterianism will have never existed here or anywhere or ever been Born, barely been born even, if we do not acknowledge the multiple Nations of a United Kingdom, with those Nation's choices of establishment of Reformed Presbyterian Governance. Korea's a very advanced nation, for any of us to ignore, that they are "Copy Catting" Princeton University, with their very own SKY University, which is Yonsei University. It has a logo taken from Princeton. Its a historical Presbyterian Mission Hospital and University that no longer requires Christians attend. Ahn Changho studied there which I mentioned already which has significant importance in understanding Korean history and the Privisional Government. The first time I looked into Presbyterianism Theology, Lee Myung-Bak was President way across the sea. There's the internet age for you.

Now again, I hate to ramble, but what always comes up with my minister for instance, is "HardShell" Presbyterians, and Baptist Ministers just pointing the finger "are you a Calvinist?!" doesn't even matter to point out the many history books prove that Baptists were historically majority Calvinists in the USA. I don't think this has to do with tolerance, acceptance, anti-slavery or anything else. The abuses of the Catholic Church are the Direct point of issue. They throw missionaries to the wind in Pagan lands and create Saints and mission accomplished. The Scottish Parliament ratified Calvin to John Knox, who was accepted in Hungary and the Netherlands from Switzerland, and this is a simple theology to understand. 100s of holidays to herd the masses in festivities were removed, family worship like Thanksgiving is promoted, Inquisitions are not what is practices, every biblical passage is put to song and a song is on the lips of the slave, tavern and ruler and knowledge abounds. Horace Underwood in Korea with Galatians 3:28, There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Does a single person realize the truth of it, because, does anyone read the Bible and not realize, they are all called Jew or Greek, they are all in role of slave or free, and they are all in roles of male or female, the New International Version Association would need to erase the Bible for this choice of Horace Underwood's to be erased, for sure.
 
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Mike Dwight

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In note to some replies... Dominionism seems like some 80's term for just how things used to be done. Would anyone doubt that President Andrew Jackson first was a totally depraved and saved Presbyterian led by Religion first and that we were for 4 years minimum under a "Reformed Governance"? I think it was exactly what candidate Romney would disagree from entirely their free conscience or say when John F Kennedy was Not the Pope's Man in the Whitehouse.

That is a personal man's quality rather than the Establishment of Religion in government Constitution, such as the Confederate States of America Constitution. Our first anthem "Hail Columbia" is quite agreeable to Reformed Religion since the pre-1830s immigration wave americans, of English, Scots and Dutch immigration in huge majority are Reformed.

I mean the Church always wanted control from governments. I've been looking into how different CHurches held what form of power in reference to European Monarchies , say for instance, when Elizabeth was Crowned for England, Ireland and France, defended Huguenots in France, for example. Queen Elizabeth is depicted as humble submitting person to a revolutionary Church. I'd heard her coronation parade was themed around this, children with Bibles and poems and roses. Emperor Napoleon allowed the Pope's attendance but Crowned himself. Queen Catherine almost similarly is handed the instruments of Power in Orthodox Russia. Interesting studies between the Older three-branch check and balances! Monarch, Church, and People!

In regard to Dominionism, Calvin had once drawn the comparison between the Holy Stairs in Rome. (They're still proudly there! Imagine all the kneeling medieval people with hurt knees!) People should be Directed, in Personal Responsibility with this Theology, a Kingdom Now is Comparable wording I guess.
 
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Mike Dwight

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Hey thanks CoreIssue! You know, studying religion is exactly like that, like many fields, say Lawyers or Accountants or other fields where the technical word has a history and meaning and usage of high value. Thanks for apostasy. Apostasy is probably what has happened in the Presbyterian Church by either internal movement or external government pressures. I'd be interested to know. USA is to be the Islam of Christianity in that Islam neither recognized race or nationality, so they believe themselves above "racism" because all their countries are Western inventions in the 20th century instead of their Abbasid, or Ottoman, or Muslim Empires, somehow that makes them not "racist".

"Apostasy" seems to describe a few individuals though. Do you know the PCUSA is Excommunicated by the National Church of Mexico! How's no one see that big deal? Its probably all the Civil War, because the Lone Star, the Single Star, that's the native people of Texas controlled by some central Mexican Empire dictator telling them to be Catholics. On the surface everybody says homosexual marriage. How bad must it be when National Religions of a singular denomination Excommunicate each other? So, join the Pope?
 
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Enoch111

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Presbyterianism, as a Denominational Banner, is in sharp decline from the late 20th Century.
You have said a lot about the decline of Presbyterianism but you have failed to focus on what brought this about. In brief, it was theological liberalism -- unbelief, called Liberal Christianity -- that destroyed all the mainline denominations, and it all started at the top (within the seminaries). And that was in the early 20th century. Some of the Princeton theologians such are Warfield and Machen opposed liberalism, but in the end the mainline denominations went liberal and apostate.
 

CoreIssue

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Hey thanks CoreIssue! You know, studying religion is exactly like that, like many fields, say Lawyers or Accountants or other fields where the technical word has a history and meaning and usage of high value. Thanks for apostasy. Apostasy is probably what has happened in the Presbyterian Church by either internal movement or external government pressures. I'd be interested to know. USA is to be the Islam of Christianity in that Islam neither recognized race or nationality, so they believe themselves above "racism" because all their countries are Western inventions in the 20th century instead of their Abbasid, or Ottoman, or Muslim Empires, somehow that makes them not "racist".

"Apostasy" seems to describe a few individuals though. Do you know the PCUSA is Excommunicated by the National Church of Mexico! How's no one see that big deal? Its probably all the Civil War, because the Lone Star, the Single Star, that's the native people of Texas controlled by some central Mexican Empire dictator telling them to be Catholics. On the surface everybody says homosexual marriage. How bad must it be when National Religions of a singular denomination Excommunicate each other? So, join the Pope?

Get out of all the denominations. Paul did condemn nominationism.
 

Mike Dwight

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Thanks Enoch111, maybe I do neglect that in study. I read the bland Wikipedia obviously. Probably sites like this one, haha. I mean there's one in Korea right now, I wonder if Moses really Did write all the books! And if he Didn't?! Maybe we'll all join the Unification Church! Don't waste my time.

What do you Mean exactly, by Liberal and Conservative? Christianity definitely isn't a political party asking for voters. Baptists and Methodists like to make up this Mainline I bet, when really, if there was no Civil War, we wouldn't be stuck with these guys. They all had triple Church growths around the 1840's from nothing. All Baptists have to do is confirm back at the government, no involvement between Church and State. Good Christians are in place now. Mainline sounds like these Methodists or Baptists are what at all allowed for a Protestant Reformation or ever spend a minute in fellowship with a single European Christian. One's refugees from England in the Netherlands. One's an evolution as far into Romanist territory as the Anglican Church in the first place.

About CoreIssue and Denominations, well how confusing does it make Presbyterians! Look at this! We have this petri dish of religions in freedom of religions, if you slapped some of these churches they'd close , I mean for hundreds of years no disinfectants so its a petri dish of 1000 religions. Now we got Black Churches, right? That was a specific break-off, say you are a Methodist, the Africans left, they left your Church structure, they said we get our equal time preaching, you can join us if you want, here we are.

Then look at the Protestant Reformation, look at the Magyar Reformed Church! That title itself, unravel that. The Magyars are a steppe People from middle of Russia that came and settled Feudal-style and made the Kingdom of Hungary and the people are the Magyars. So if theres a Korean Presbyterian Church or a Magyar Presbyterian Church in America then some Scotsman went all the way over there and got things setup how he wanted and its exactly how Presbyterians universally want it!
 
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CoreIssue

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Thanks Enoch111, maybe I do neglect that in study. I read the bland Wikipedia obviously. Probably sites like this one, haha. I mean there's one in Korea right now, I wonder if Moses really Did write all the books! And if he Didn't?! Maybe we'll all join the Unification Church! Don't waste my time.

What do you Mean exactly, by Liberal and Conservative? Christianity definitely isn't a political party asking for voters. Baptists and Methodists like to make up this Mainline I bet, when really, if there was no Civil War, we wouldn't be stuck with these guys. They all had triple Church growths around the 1840's from nothing. All Baptists have to do is confirm back at the government, no involvement between Church and State. Good Christians are in place now. Mainline sounds like these Methodists or Baptists are what at all allowed for a Protestant Reformation or ever spend a minute in fellowship with a single European Christian. One's refugees from England in the Netherlands. One's an evolution as far into Romanist territory as the Anglican Church in the first place.

Not trying to speak for liberal Christians take license with what the Bible says to reshape it to the comfort.

Conservative Christians accept the discomfort of what the Bible says about them and sees the opportunity for growth and learning.

My sig line.

The Bible tells us about God. God doesn't need to be told about us.

I've yet to see a denomination that is pure Bible.
 

Mike Dwight

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All old people had was time, attention, and Bibles from 1500 onwards, so I'm not so quick to throw away that source of academics. I have no idea, maybe I read the whole Bible and if I did, can I systematize like the Divines in England. That should just hold true, those are perfectly good, if not superior, Superior religious divinities from the dang 1500's than we will ever accomplish today, with nothing but logic, time, Bibles, importance and patience, and solemnity.

We're talking at each other a little bit CoreIssue. That's nice. Especially when the 1 Billiion and More Catholics say the Pope is making up Hearing from God like a Prophet on a regular basis, so Reformed Protestants named the End of Revelation, or, they're missing out on 600 years of continued Subscription readership, am I right? Sign up for your nearest Big Papa diaries.
 
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CoreIssue

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All old people had was time, attention, and Bibles from 1500 onwards, so I'm not so quick to throw away that source of academics. I have no idea, maybe I read the whole Bible and if I did, can I systematize like the Divines in England. That should just hold true, those are perfectly good, if not superior, Superior religious divinities from the dang 1500's than we will ever accomplish today, with nothing but logic, time, Bibles, importance and patience, and solemnity.

We're talking at each other a little bit CoreIssue. That's nice. Especially when the 1 Billiion and More Catholics say the Pope is making up Hearing from God like a Prophet on a regular basis, so Reformed Protestants named the End of Revelation, or, they're missing out on 600 years of continued Subscription readership, am I right? Sign up for your nearest Big Papa diaries.

That old propaganda line.

You do realize the Catholic Church dominated the 1500s. And that are double: other knowledge has grown vastly since then.
 

Willie T

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I noticed this trend in some of the Presby circles and thought it was a symptom of their Postmillennialism. "Claiming the planet for Christ" ISIS style if necessary.
I am not a Christian Dominionist, but you do make me chuckle at your programed response to what they supposedly believe. But, I have to remind myself that there was a time when I didn't know any better either.
 

Mike Dwight

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Nobody interested in my thesis? No wait a second, there are plenty of Churches in Relative growth or Not-Declining-As-Much. I quoted 7 Million Presbyterians at other times and the total population now is 3 million in USA. We heard about when this happened to the Jews, about the same timeperiod, right? Scots wrote half the Declaration of Independence said a black Presbyterian.

You guys ever notice Anne Murray took for Canadian Country that "Snowbird" by Gene McLellan, work on some sociology with me. He looks like a conservative family-man Canada-scot type, and they sort of stole his gospel album, for a few songs here and there, and turned these into popular songs! Someone should study the sociology of it, or look into it! Like Mark David Chapman! I think US society is marginalizing Presbyterians!
 

CoreIssue

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Nobody interested in my thesis? No wait a second, there are plenty of Churches in Relative growth or Not-Declining-As-Much. I quoted 7 Million Presbyterians at other times and the total population now is 3 million in USA. We heard about when this happened to the Jews, about the same timeperiod, right? Scots wrote half the Declaration of Independence said a black Presbyterian.

You guys ever notice Anne Murray took for Canadian Country that "Snowbird" by Gene McLellan, work on some sociology with me. He looks like a conservative family-man Canada-scot type, and they sort of stole his gospel album, for a few songs here and there, and turned these into popular songs! Someone should study the sociology of it, or look into it! Like Mark David Chapman! I think US society is marginalizing Presbyterians!

Churches are in heavy decline.

No black without any part of the declaration of independence.

A conservative Canadian is a rarity. One of the admin on my forum is one.

Honestly, I don't think US society hardly ever thinks of Presbyterians.

When I lived in Scotland probably the most popular singer was Elvis Pressley.

I was a fan of the Corries.