The Religion Box

[Episkopos]

We often see it in others...but not in ourselves.

We, being human, come to Christ in the same basic condition as all men...used to our old lives and old way of seeing things...even WITH the truth! We need renewing in our minds!

We all have a tendency of keeping our lives orderly (this goes here and that goes there) and this is true as well with the things we are learning from the bible. So we make a new category in our minds which I will call the "religion box".

When decorating our religion boxes we choose what we think will help us in the form of favourite verses that do something for us! We also reject other verses (at least temporarily) that seem to be too difficult to grasp or swallow at that point. So these stay out of our boxes. Now we are not actually SEEKING to create our own religious environment ..this just happens naturally. We ARE human after all!

The problem gets worse as we begin to feel comfortable with the religious environment we have created for ourselves. As we get older in our beliefs we tend now to reject the verses we previously omitted by hardening our hearts against them. The Israelites did this as well. And we are just as human as they were.

So now even if verses are found that directly contradict the meaning we have given to "our" favourite verses...we reject those verses! We ignore them.

So we remain immature... but now HARDENED to the truth that a balanced view of ALL the scriptures convey! We stiffen ourselves against those who contradict the meaning we have imposed on the verse we have "chosen for ourselves".

These are OUR verses and in these verses we feel comfort..we feel SAVED!

Man wants to survive and he turns to religion thinking this will save him. We grasp "our verses" the way a Viking grasped his sword in the comforting knowledge that to do so carried with it the promise of Valhalla!

"For God so loved the world...That's for ME!!!! (and others who think like me)

So we create our own religious reality that makes sense to us.

But following Jesus means leaving our own religious realities that we have created for ourselves...leaving all to follow Him!

Living in the comfort of our religion boxes , with all those comforting verses stops us from following Christ in reality!

His church is the "called out ones" the Ecclesia!

Jesus said...Mat_16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

(This verse never gets on the favourite verse lists that decorate our religious boxes...because it seeks to destroy our religious boxes!!!)

You can't seek both Christ and to save yourself!

Now when someone tries to challenge the choices we have made for ourselves concerning the bible, and the meaning we derive for those choices, we tend to take it very personally. We defend our choices as if they were in fact God's very choices!

So then one will always say..."but it says here"...and try ignoring the contradictory sounding verse.

Now ALL verses are true...but maybe not with the meaning we have given to them.

All the verses are true..but they can only benefit us when we let go of them for ourselves.
We don't add anything to the truth when we "want" it to be true. We take away from the truth through partiality to what we like.

God judges impartially...and so should we. Follow God's example!

The truth is not meant to serve our needs...so we shouldn't try using truth that way. In fact the truth judges those who seek to derive a personal benefit by it.

It IS the truth. It judges us and not we...IT. No one stands above the truth. Jesus Christ stands over us. We must submit to Christ AND the truth which He is!

Often we try decorating our boxes with truth the way one would loot a temple of it's treasure. But no one in history has ever gotten away with it. The truth finds US out!

The truth is meant to set us free...we can't seek to bring the truth into our bondage with us. To do so condemns us!

Are we really servants of the truth? Are we servants of Christ? Or do we want too much for the truth to serve OUR needs. Do we want too much for truth to save US?

One of the biggest delusions is to settle with a simple verse what is condemned elsewhere. When we apply a verse to ourselves (especially for decoration purposes) it is because we are seeking to justify ourselves.

Most grave errors come from a misuse of what Paul has said. But the bible balances itself with the following statement.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.


Does this mean a person can be a Christian who now stands on the verse that says...there is therefore now NO condemnation for those IN Christ... And yet be totally deceived by not taking into account the WHOLE counsel of God on any matter???

A true disciple considers he could be wrong...a condemned one never considers that...he attacks the one who suggested it!!! When Jesus said.."one of you will betray me" they said..."Lord is it I? They did not look to move the discomfort from THEIR boxes by seeking a victim other than themselves. Rather, they let the truth be the master and in so doing served their Master...Jesus Christ. Instead these will be revealed in glory with the truth ( whom is Christ)

Instead STAND ON CHRIST HIMSELF...not on verses you have chosen for yourselves. Let your praise be from others and not yourself. Let your praise be FROM GOD HIMSELF!

This is the way forward!!!

 

[101G]

2 Episkopos, GINOLJC

well said, and an amen to that.

All the verses are true..but they can only benefit us when we let go of them for ourselves.

Most grave errors come from a misuse of what Paul has said. But the bible balances itself with the following statement.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

that's the nut shell, thanks. from the sandbox, to learning box, all of us.

be blessed.

 

[Episkopos]

..And you as well! :)

 

[jiggyfly]

Very good post E, thanks for posting this truth.

 

[aspen]

yeah, it looks like you guys have talked yourselves out of the very language we use in our relationship with God. Like starving people cursing the very food they are preteding not to eat. spritual anorexia.

 

[Episkopos]

yeah, it looks like you guys have talked yourselves out of the very language we use in our relationship with God. Like starving people cursing the very food they are preteding not to eat. spritual anorexia.

Do you disagree with the OP?

 

[aspen]

i think people who belive being a Christian is limited to memorizing scrripture or declaring doctrine do lead compartmental lives when it comes to religion. however, Christians who are not confused about what Christianity is love all their neighbors and God - not just when they are in Christian circles.

 

[Episkopos]

i think people who belive being a Christian is limited to memorizing scrripture or declaring doctrine do lead compartmental lives when it comes to religion. however, Christians who are not confused about what Christianity is love all their neighbors and God - not just when they are in Christian circles.

Are you arguing loving FROM the safety of a religious system? One can do that! But why do what YOU think is right rather than following Christ? This is the difference between a human morality with it's agenda, and doing the will of God!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

One thing I have noticed over the years is cultists and false teachers using that verse (Matthew 16:25) to manipulate people's minds to abandon some framework of thought in order to embrace a false teaching. Not saying that's what you're doing; just making an observation about something that I think we need to be aware of and be very careful about.

There seems to be two extremes: doctrine without spirit, and spirit without doctrine. Both tend towards self-righteousness. There must be a balance between doctrine and spiritual obedience to properly follow Christ. They work together hand in hand.

The suggestion that we have to leave behind our understanding of Christ that we gain from scripture in order to follow Jesus is non-nonsensical and diabolical. That is the language of cults and mysticism. We are commanded to follow sound doctrine (instruction), and we get that from the bible. Paul, in fact, admonished Timothy to take heed to the doctrine he had been taught, and in doing so would save himself. That sounds entirely contrary to what it seems to me you are saying.

In fact, I find this idea to be disingenuous because the very faith that you claim to have came from a bible that is filled with doctrine, and written and preserved by men who followed doctrine.

I think you are presenting a false dichotomy that followers of Christ cannot speak with scriptural authority, or that those who speak with scriptural authority are not following Christ. That is entirely false.

 

[Episkopos]

One thing I have noticed over the years is cultists and false teachers using that verse (Matthew 16:25) to manipulate people's minds to abandon some framework of thought in order to embrace a false teaching. Not saying that's what you're doing; just making an observation about something that I think we need to be aware of and be very careful about.

There seems to be two extremes: doctrine without spirit, and spirit without doctrine. Both tend towards self-righteousness. There must be a balance between doctrine and spiritual obedience to properly follow Christ. They work together hand in hand.

The suggestion that we have to leave behind our understanding of Christ that we gain from scripture in order to follow Jesus is non-nonsensical and diabolical. That is the language of cults and mysticism. We are commanded to follow sound doctrine (instruction), and we get that from the bible. Paul, in fact, admonished Timothy to take heed to the doctrine he had been taught, and in doing so would save himself. That sounds entirely contrary to what it seems to me you are saying.

In fact, I find this idea to be disingenuous because the very faith that you claim to have came from a bible that is filled with doctrine, and written and preserved by men who followed doctrine.

I think you are presenting a false dichotomy that followers of Christ cannot speak with scriptural authority, or that those who speak with scriptural authority are not following Christ. That is entirely false.

Where is THAT coming from? Before judging as if you have the entire truth and can compare favourably everything you see try reading it again without the indoctrination attitude!

I don't think you have understood a thing you read!

Faith doesn't come from a human understanding of the bible...it comes through the Spirit or else it is just a religious concept! We have to see beyond the words to actually know the Lord.

One needs to be moved by the Spirit to speak with scriptural authority! One must submit to the truth...not use the truth to make your views known!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Where is THAT coming from? Before judging as if you have the entire truth and can compare favourably everything you see try reading it again without the indoctrination attitude!
I don't think you have understood a thing you read!
One needs to be moved by the Spirit to speak with scriptural authority! One must submit to the truth...not use the truth to make your views known!

I read it several times; and frankly there are a lot of words, but not a lot of clear thought.

I don't disagree at all that one must be moved by the spirit to speak with scriptural authority. But what is spoken must agree with scripture. One cannot speak with scriptural authority unless one knows scripture. That contradicts what you seem to be saying in your OP.

Instead of being so offended, why don't you address some of the points I made?

 

[Episkopos]

I read it several times; and frankly there are a lot of words, but not a lot of clear thought.

I don't disagree at all that one must be moved by the spirit to speak with scriptural authority. But what is spoken must agree with scripture. One cannot speak with scriptural authority unless one knows scripture. That contradicts what you seem to be saying in your OP.

Instead of being so offended, why don't you address some of the points I made?

I'm not offended! :)

I'm sorry if it sounded that way! I was incredulous to hear your take after seeing your username!

Of course what we teach must agree with the bible...but it must agree with the whole counsel of God!

I was just wondering if you are living in a religious box or else never had one! Either way...most readers quickly identify what is being said!

 

[101G]

ChristRoseFromTheDead

making an observation about something that I think we need to be aware of and be very careful about.
There seems to be two extremes: doctrine without spirit, and spirit without doctrine. Both tend towards self-righteousness. There must be a balance between doctrine and spiritual obedience to properly follow Christ.
The suggestion that we have to leave behind our understanding of Christ that we gain from scripture in order to follow Jesus is non-nonsensical and diabolical. That is the language of cults and mysticism. We are commanded to follow sound doctrine (instruction), and we get that from the bible. Paul, in fact, admonished Timothy to take heed to the doctrine he had been taught, and in doing so would save himself. That sounds entirely contrary to what it seems to me you are saying.
In fact, I find this idea to be disingenuous because the very faith that you claim to have came from a bible that is filled with doctrine, and preserved by men who followed doctrine.


There must be a balance between doctrine and spiritual obedience to properly follow Christ?. YES, its called "WISDOM". and it's not found in men.

"The suggestion that we have to leave behind our understanding of Christ that we gain from scripture in order to follow Jesus is non-nonsensical and diabolical".

well that's the BIG PROBLEM, or may I say the BOX. "OUR UNDERSTANDING", "OUR". that "WE", "WE" gain...... question, who are the "OUR", and the "WE", you speak of?. these church fathers of old?. or your denominational group?. or "OUR" own understanding?. this is where I part company. God word is complete, and it's not contradictory. I have no problem with anyone's doctrine, as long as it do not conflict with the word of God. SO CAN I QUESTION YOUR DOCTRINE?. for all scriptures is good for doctrine. but the scriptures warns, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". when man use scripture to suite his own way of thinking. don't count me in. for the test, (and I like to use the ACID TEST), meaning, the scriptures themselves, with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. if your doctrine is of the scripture, then it can pass the test. if not, destruction. be a Berean, searched the scriptures daily, see whether those things were so. if I have the Holy Spirit in me as in you as our guide, then we must agree. but if you come and say , "lets agree to disagree". then that tell me to suspect your thinking. as Episkopos said, "All the verses are true..but they can only benefit us when we let go of them for ourselves".

1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ".

now, everyone don't have the mind of Christ. that's why we have the ministry gifts. but is this totally safe?. no. because everyone, who say that they are a preacher, teacher, pastor, ect... is not. so what is one to do?. my answer, GO TO GOD, AND LET HIM TEACH YOU DIRECTLY INSTEAD OF BY MEN, or he will send you to the right one. please don't get me wrong. there are many God filled men, and women who preach and teach God word. but I tell you and any, check it out in the bible and see for yourself. and if its true, it will stand. if not it will fall. but listen carefully, if one saying don't line up with the word of God, is that minister a bad minister, NO. we're human, and we all make mistakes. did not Apollo get corrected by Aquila and Priscilla?. and went on to be a good producer for the kingdom. did not the apostle Paul give his opinion in matters concerning marriage in chapter 7 of 1 Corinthians?.

what I'm saying is this, DON'T STAY IN YOUR OWN BOX, GET OUT. THEIR'S A WHOLE NEW WORLD OUT THERE. just waiting to be discovered.
be like the apostle, go where no man have gone before, (but only in the Lord). scripture, Proverbs 4:7 "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. 8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost embrace her. 9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee".

be blessed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There must be a balance between doctrine and spiritual obedience to properly follow Christ?. YES, its called "WISDOM". and it's not found in men.

So does this mean you are a misandrist, or that the wisdom of GOD is not found in natural man?

well that's the BIG PROBLEM, or may I say the BOX. "OUR UNDERSTANDING", "OUR". that "WE", "WE" gain...... question, who are the "OUR", and the "WE", you speak of?. these church fathers of old?. or your denominational group?. or "OUR" own understanding?. this is where I part company. God word is complete, and it's not contradictory. I have no problem with anyone's doctrine, as long as it do not conflict with the word of God. SO CAN I QUESTION YOUR DOCTRINE?. for all scriptures is good for doctrine. but the scriptures warns, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". when man use scripture to suite his own way of thinking. don't count me in. for the test, (and I like to use the ACID TEST), meaning, the scriptures themselves, with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. if your doctrine is of the scripture, then it can pass the test. if not, destruction. be a Berean, searched the scriptures daily, see whether those things were so. if I have the Holy Spirit in me as in you as our guide, then we must agree. but if you come and say , "lets agree to disagree". then that tell me to suspect your thinking. as Episkopos said, "All the verses are true..but they can only benefit us when we let go of them for ourselves".

I agree with what you say. However, we can have no understanding of anything without it being our understanding. Of course, we are not to lean on 'our understanding' (Proverbs 3:5), but that simply means to not trust the carnal mind that is alienated from GOD. The bible tells us to put on the mind of Christ; it becomes our mind, our thoughts, our understanding.

What concerns me are teachings rooted in spirits of mysticism and gnosticism that value personal experience and secret, or privileged, knowledge over biblical doctrine. That's not to mean that I don't think the leading of the spirit is real and personal; but it does mean that I think many eschew biblical doctrine as a means of enhancing personal experience. There does seem to be an increasing number of people who believe that an altered state of mind, or unity through community, is communion with the holy spirit.

This is becoming very evident in the emergent church movement, which basically looks at doctrine as evil. They are in revolt against the dead spirit and structure of traditional churches, but in seeking to be free have abandoned the very thing that can set them free. In a sense, they have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Episkopos]

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The religious men in Jesus' time did not recognize the truth when presented to them in LIVING REALITY...they were too busy living according to their understanding of the scriptures and how they thought they themselves fit into them! They had made a religious box that all of them could fit into...but Jesus was calling them out of that box to come FOLLOW HIM!


It is very human to be so blind as to not see the forest for the trees!!!

Jesus Christ is LIFE in the Spirit right now...not a lifeless information that promises life to be stored in our hopes of immortality for some future date.

God is looking for fellowship! He is waiting for us BEHIND the words of the bible!

.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The religious men in Jesus' time did not recognize the truth when presented to them in LIVING REALITY...they were too busy living according to their understanding of the scriptures and how they thought they themselves fit into them! They had made a religious box that all of them could fit into...but Jesus was calling them out of that box to come FOLLOW HIM!
It is very human to be so blind as to not see the forest for the trees!!!
Jesus Christ is LIFE in the Spirit right now...not a lifeless information that promises life to be stored in our hopes of immortality for some future date.
God is looking for fellowship! He is waiting for us BEHIND the words of the bible!.

That's all true. But the religious box is the carnal mind, not words or doctrine. There are many counterfeits mimicking the holy spirit. Without the restraint of doctrine, fellowship of the spirit can devolve easily into many carnal things that are not of GOD.

The whole issue is whether or not we are following truth, because the holy spirit is truth. The words of the bible are true, but words on paper or even in our minds cannot save us. Only the spirit can save us. Yet the spirit only witnesses what is found in the bible. Both work together hand in hand.

 

[Episkopos]

That's all true. But the religious box is the carnal mind, not words or doctrine. There are many counterfeits mimicking the holy spirit. Without the restraint of doctrine, fellowship of the spirit can devolve easily into many carnal things that are not of GOD.

The whole issue is whether or not we are following truth, because the holy spirit is truth. The words of the bible are true, but words on paper or even in our minds cannot save us. Only the spirit can save us. Yet the spirit only witnesses what is found in the bible. Both work together hand in hand.

Exactly...one is a map and the other a compass!

But it is still life that the bible is pointing to! A treasure hunt would be quite futile unless there was a treasure to be found! The bible IS a treasure hunt...and that treasure is God Himself!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Exactly...one is a map and the other a compass!

That's a very nice analogy.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

 

[101G]

2 ChristRoseFromTheDead, greeting.

I'm going to make this as brief as possible
So does this mean you are a misandrist, or that the wisdom of GOD is not found in natural man?

a misandrist?, LOL, LOL, LOL. Oh NO, I AM against, or hate Ignorance. case in point, I used Man as (male as well as females), upon context, see your Ignorance. the word man in the bible just don't mean the MALE ONLY, LOL. but as MANKIND meaning male and female.

and two, you answered your own question, lean not to your "OWN" understanding. did not you say "or the wisdom of GOD is not found in natural man?", LOL, or a natural woman either, boy Oh boy. once again, 1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned". please look up the word "man" here and see what it means
1 Corinthians 2:7 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory"
well crd, you just receive a simple mystery, the word "man" in the bible don't always means "male in the bible.
now, another mystery for you. why you took offense?. oh yes, it was seen in your response. that tell me that your still in the flesh, :blink: and that you're not free h34r: . what did our brother James say, " let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath". you jump mad, just because I question your statement. are you still in your BOX?.

Now the second half of your respond, I agree with what you say. However, we can have no understanding of anything without it being our understanding.
easy answer, whatsoever is not of faith is sin. see Romans 14:23.

What concerns me are teachings rooted in spirits of mysticism and gnosticism that value personal experience and secret, or privileged, knowledge over biblical doctrine. That's not to mean that I don't think the leading of the spirit is real and personal; but it does mean that I think many eschew biblical doctrine as a means of enhancing personal experience. There does seem to be an increasing number of people who believe that an altered state of mind, or unity through community, is communion with the holy spirit.

what do you think God have you there for. PREACH THE TRUTH. 2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry". don't we have a ministry?. well do your JOB.

be blessed.

 

[Episkopos]

It is one thing to correctly identify the voice of the Lord but quite another to change direction and go towards that voice.

We begin spiritually in a dark room. We hear a voice from somewhere behind us. We look but we see no one. Yet we remember the voice and have an idea of where it is coming from. We know we are supposed to follow that voice. Some of us do and some don't.

When we turn and move towards the Voice we are exercising the faith we have. We don't prefer listening...we prefer seeing. But faith begins when we put listening above seeing.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. We are not following words, but the voice that speaks the words in our hearts. God's voice continues to call us step by step as He makes us move through the darkness. Many who have listened once or a few times now give up this listening since the darkness persists. It seems to many like a lesson in futility.

But a few will persist and continue being directed by the Voice! These are being led by the Spirit. Where is the Voice leading us? We must continue to trust and persevere even when we feel like fools for doing so. Perseverance in listening continues by faith. God is pleased with those who persist.

We walk by faith and not by sight.

We become as fools to become wise.

When God is satisfied with the faith He has seen, He rewards us with seeing something. He opens our eyes!

He is taking us upward to a doorway that is His Son.

No man comes to Me unless My Father draw him.

Through that doorway is light and the very presence of God in Zion. There we fellowship with God and the Son because we are in the Spirit. From there we see as He sees and walk as He walked. We walk in the light (a light we see dimly...but we see it and this changes our countenance to a wondrous joy.) We walk in LIFE...an abundant life together with the Lord.

We walk in the light as He is in the light.

So then we are led by the Spirit to get us accustomed to listening and following while yet not seeing. But this is to prepare a deeper faith of remaining in Him...WHERE He is. We are learning to love God and prefer His abode to our old lives. We are led out from darkness to light....from bondage to freedom...from death to life!