The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)

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Hiddenthings

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Yes, their physical bodies were buried but not their spirit.

Yeah this is mainstream Christian doctrine based on the immortal soul - a fallacy nowhere taught in the Bible. It really stuffs you up on these Scriptures.

Christ was the first to get a resurrected body, but the rest of us won't get one until He returns at the Second Coming. I think that puts the questions you posed of Hebrews 11 in proper context.

My position is that when the body dies, the spirit\soul departs. We then have a spiritual or heavenly body (whatever you want to call it). When Christ returns, we are given a resurrected body to operate in this world. Given that, how would you reconcile the following verses?

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:8)

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 2-4)
Essentially, you believe that Jesus did not die, which means the atonement is lost on you and the victory remains misunderstood.

You also fail to grasp the true nature of perfection, because you assume you already possess it.

If I asked you to prove that an ethereal, immortal spirit departs from a person in the Bible, we both know you cannot. Instead, you are compelled to misinterpret passages like 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Luke 23:43.

The real question is: can you learn? Do you have the humility to accept truth?

Time will reveal the answer.
 

David in NJ

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You don't seriously think that when you die you end up at Abraham bosom ?
YES = But this was BEFORE Jesus Rose from the Grave and ascended back to Heaven

JESUS is TRUTH = Trust His every word!!!
 

Hiddenthings

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@Jericho - how do you feel about your Lord using the Pharisees false teaching on immortal soulism?

It’s really an interesting crossroads, you can either cling to the Pharisees’ teaching and their view of life after death, or you can accept the Master’s rebuke and recognize the folly of that path.

The foundation of your belief must begin with the Old Testament.

Jesus teaches them of the Bush - Matthew 22:31–32

When Jesus referred to “the Bush”, he was pointing to the passage in Exodus where God revealed Himself to Moses from the burning bush. It was common practice to give short titles to well-known sections of Scripture. For example, Paul writes: “Wot ye not what the scripture saith in ‘Elijah’?” (Rom 11:2). Likewise, Ezekiel’s vision of the Cherubim was often called “The Chariot.”

Jesus could easily have chosen clearer Old Testament passages about the resurrection ( e.g. Dan. 12:2; Isa. 26:19; Ps. 16:10; 17:15). But since the Sadducees gave supreme authority to the Pentateuch and treated the rest of the writings only as devotional rather than doctrinal, he confronted them with a text they could not dismiss. Thus He said: “Have ye not read—that which was spoken unto you by God—‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?”

In these words the Lord presented a twofold argument. First: God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Second: although the patriarchs had died, God still claimed covenant relationship with them. Therefore, they must live again, resurrection is guaranteed (cp. Heb. 11:16).

If you Jericho believe in the doctrine of the immortal soul, then Jesus’ reasoning in Luke 20:37–38 (and parallels) loses its force. I'm sure you can already see why.

If Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were already alive in heaven as disembodied souls, then there would be no need to argue for their future resurrection. They would already be “living unto God,” and the whole discussion with the Sadducees about resurrection (the actual context) would be pointless.

Jesus’ logic depends on the fact that they are dead now, but God still calls Himself their God, showing His covenant promise that they must live again. Resurrection, not soul-immortality, is the only way his words make sense.

The Sadducees denied resurrection, not immortality of the soul. If Jesus wanted to prove immortality, He could have used other arguments. Instead, He proved resurrection from the Pentateuch, the very portion the Sadducees revered most.

So, if you assume the soul is immortal, Jesus’ argument is circular and redundant: He’d be “proving” people are alive when the whole discussion is about whether the dead will rise again. His words only make sense if the patriarchs are now dead and await resurrection.


Do you understand this Jericho?

Soul Immortality?

Many have argued, especially on the basis of the words “for all live unto him” that Jesus’ reasoning establishes the immortality of the soul. Most commentators have reached this conclusion almost without exception.

The passage in Exodus emphasizes that everlasting life rests on a personal relationship with God (see Ps. 16:8–11; 49:13–15; 73:23–26). Therefore, immortality cannot be something common to all humanity. This was exactly Paul’s point when he wrote of Abraham’s faith: “God quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were” (Rom. 4:17). It is in this sense that the patriarchs “all live unto him” (cp. Rom. 14:8).

Jesus’ argument, however, was not drawn merely from the single verse in Exodus 3, but from its broader context. In the Bush passage (Ex. 3:6, 15, 16; 4:5; 6:3–4, 8) God identifies Himself no fewer than six times with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Importantly, two of these references explicitly reaffirm His covenant promise to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they had lived only as strangers. Such a promise requires their future resurrection, for they had not received it in their lifetime. When Jesus quoted the words of Exodus, these promises were included in his reasoning.

Had they wished, the Sadducees might have countered by claiming that the burning bush only symbolized God’s promise to figuratively raise Israel out of Egypt, not a literal bodily resurrection. Yet they did not, which suggests that Jesus had deliberately drawn their attention to these covenant passages as well.

It is also noteworthy that Rabbi Gamaliel, known for his sympathy toward the early Christians (see Acts of the Apostles, HAW, ch. 23), later used the same reasoning against the Sadducees, though basing it on Deut. 1:8 and 11:9 (Edersheim). It is quite possible that he first learned this line of argument directly from Jesus himself.
 
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Hiddenthings

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@Jericho

What is undeniable is the way people responded to Jesus’ teaching on the resurrection, we cannot argue with that

The crowd in the temple courts listened to Jesus with astonishment. The rabbis and chief priests were men of reputation and learning, figures to be deferred to, even when their arguments were shallow or misguided, which they often were. Yet here was Jesus, the carpenter from Galilee, exposing their weak reasoning and correcting them as if they were little more than schoolboys.

Even some of the scribes could not help but acknowledge the weight of his words. “Teacher, you have spoken well” (Lk.), they admitted, an indirect confession that they themselves could not have answered the challenge with such clarity and authority.

But the reaction of those whom Jesus had silenced was far less gracious. Neither Pharisees nor Sadducees dared confront him further on disputed matters. These men, normally considered the masters of debate and theology in Israel, had been thoroughly bested by Jesus, who revealed himself as the true master over them all.

The real question is whether, in your heart, you believe you can stand against the Lord’s teaching.
 

Jack

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Yeah this is mainstream Christian doctrine based on the immortal soul - a fallacy nowhere taught in the Bible. It really stuffs you up on these Scriptures.


Essentially, you believe that Jesus did not die, which means the atonement is lost on you and the victory remains misunderstood.

You also fail to grasp the true nature of perfection, because you assume you already possess it.

If I asked you to prove that an ethereal, immortal spirit departs from a person in the Bible, we both know you cannot. Instead, you are compelled to misinterpret passages like 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Luke 23:43.

The real question is: can you learn? Do you have the humility to accept truth?

Time will reveal the answer.
Why don't you quote Scriptures?
 

Hiddenthings

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@David in NJ

Do you recognize the danger of standing against the Master’s teaching? If you fail to see both the rebuke of their doctrines and the authority of their position, you miss the very context and meaning of his instruction.
 

Jack

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@David in NJ

Do you recognize the danger of standing against the Master’s teaching?
Jesus is the Master and He said:

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If you fail to see both the rebuke of their doctrines and the authority of their position, you miss the very context and meaning of his instruction.
How ironic!
 

Bladerunner

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Yeah, BILLLIONS of humans will spend eternity with the rich man who DIED and was crying in the fire!
There will be no parties in the lake of fire and brimstone for the Bible tells us it is a dark place and it will be your own place. No body but you will be there and of course there will be torment and pain for eternty.
 

Bladerunner

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There will be no parties in the lake of fire and brimstone for the Bible tells us it is a dark place and it will be your own place. No body but you will be there and of course there will be torment and pain for eternty.
The biggest problem is that as shown in the Rich Man and Lazarus, Luk 16....you will have all five functions of the body, seeing, hearing, feeling, speech, pain, you will be conscious, you will know why you are there, and yet unlike the rich man who saw Abram's Bosom, there will be nothing to see in the lake of fire and brimstone. Judas went to His own place...everybody will have their own place...no frends, no parties, etc. this includes Satan as well. No, Satan is not running Hell...Hell was made by God for Satan. Eternity in this is not good.time is running out...do you know when you will die? NO! the next five minutes youo walk out the door and never get home or go to sleep and never wake up...Your decisions are over when you die. there are no more choices.
 

Hiddenthings

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The biggest problem is that as shown in the Rich Man and Lazarus, Luk 16....you will have all five functions of the body, seeing, hearing, feeling, speech, pain, you will be conscious, you will know why you are there, and yet unlike the rich man who saw Abram's Bosom, there will be nothing to see in the lake of fire and brimstone. Judas went to His own place...everybody will have their own place...no frends, no parties, etc. this includes Satan as well. No, Satan is not running Hell...Hell was made by God for Satan. Eternity in this is not good.time is running out...do you know when you will die? NO! the next five minutes youo walk out the door and never get home or go to sleep and never wake up...Your decisions are over when you die. there are no more choices.
This is precisely the type of teaching the Lord rejected, not only in the parable of the Rich Man but throughout all his instruction. The blending of mythology with Scripture is especially dangerous, as the ideas mentioned above are found nowhere in the Word. How can anyone defend a position that is indefensible?
 

David in NJ

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Jesus is the Master and He said:

Matthew 13:49-50
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

How ironic!
i got a good laugh from his response