The rich man and the beggar at his gate?

[Enoch111]

In this parable are they two separate individuals, or are they one in the same?

I had posted this response (below) a few days ago in the thread on Job 17. But the naysayers will continue to believe whatever they have been indoctrinated with (the virus of false teachings). This is NOT a parable but a glimpse into the afterlife which only Christ could provide.

LESSONS FROM THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

1. AN ACTUAL ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

2. LAZARUS IGNORED BY THE RICH MAN -- A REAL LIFE SCENARIO
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

3. A DESCRIPTION OF THE AFTERLIFE (EVERYONE AWAKE AND ALIVE)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [Note: if this were indeed a parable -- an illustrative story -- what exactly was being illustrated?]

4. HADES -- THE PLACE OF DEPARTED SPIRITS (RIGHTEOUS AND UNRIGHTEOUS)
23 And in hell [HADES] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [Note: this was true until the resurrection of Christ. The righteous dead were taken to Heaven by Christ upon his ascension, and now they go directly to Heaven where all the OT saints reside]

5. NO SECOND CHANCES AFTER DEATH
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [Note: an actual dialogue in Hades between the Rich Man and Abraham]

6. THE RIGHTEOUS COMFORTED, THE UNRIGHTEOUS TORMENTED IN HADES
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

7. A HUGE CHASM BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS DEAD
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

8. WISHFUL THINKING AND REGRETS IN HADES
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

9. CONFIRMATION THAT THE UNRIGHTEOUS ARE IN TORMENT AS A PRELUDE TO HELL
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

10. THE OLD TESTAMENT PRESENTS THE WAY OF SALVATION
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.[Note: this is exactly what Paul confirmed to Timothy -- And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. The Holy Scriptures = the Hebrew Tanakh = Moses and the Prophets]

11. THE MISTAKEN IDEA THAT MIRACLES WILL CONVINCE THE UNBELIEVING
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [Note: even though Christ performed a multitude of miracles, the Jews generally did not accept Him as their Messiah/King]

12. THIS ALSO REFERS TO THE FACT THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST DID NOT BRING ISRAEL TO REPENTANCE
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

we are told, pretty emphatically, that Jesus never spoke to the crowds,
except in Parables. Matthew 13:34, Mark 4:3

"without" is not synonymous with "except"

The gist of your two references indicates that Jesus always included at least
one parable in his sermons rather than that his sermons were spoken only in
parable form.

Many of the Lord's sermons were plain-spoken without hidden meanings; for
example;

While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked: How is it that the
teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself,
speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

"The Lord said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies
under your feet."

David himself calls him "Lord." How then can he be his son?

The large crowd listened to him with delight. (Mark 12:35-37)

Jesus was speaking that day in the Temple courtyard which, at the time, was
a convenient venue for anybody with the moxie and the wherewithal to set
up a soap box and preach to anybody who cared to listen. He went on to say
other plain-spoken things to the crowd that day sans hidden meanings. For
example:

As he taught, Jesus said: Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to
walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, and have
the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at
banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy
prayers. Such men will be punished most severely. (Mark 12:38-40)

» In your opinion, when and where will the "such men" be punished most
severely; in this life or the next?
_

 

[Marymog]

Kinda sounds like the story of Job too me

Yup...Kinda does.

Why would Jesus put the life of Job in a parable when the story of Job was already known to the Jews at that time? Why not just talk about Job and use his name in the parable? (which then wouldn't be a parable)

Curious

 

[Marymog]

Revelation 18:7-8 KJV
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. [8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
How does this scripture fit with the story?

Hi,

In context that passage from Revelation has to do with Babylon sooooo I don't see it fitting at all with the rich man and Lazarus parable. Please explain....I must be missing something.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I had posted this response (below) a few days ago in the thread on Job 17. But the naysayers will continue to believe whatever they have been indoctrinated with (the virus of false teachings). This is NOT a parable but a glimpse into the afterlife which only Christ could provide.

LESSONS FROM THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

1. AN ACTUAL ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

2. LAZARUS IGNORED BY THE RICH MAN -- A REAL LIFE SCENARIO
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

3. A DESCRIPTION OF THE AFTERLIFE (EVERYONE AWAKE AND ALIVE)
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [Note: if this were indeed a parable -- an illustrative story -- what exactly was being illustrated?]

4. HADES -- THE PLACE OF DEPARTED SPIRITS (RIGHTEOUS AND UNRIGHTEOUS)
23 And in hell [HADES] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [Note: this was true until the resurrection of Christ. The righteous dead were taken to Heaven by Christ upon his ascension, and now they go directly to Heaven where all the OT saints reside]

5. NO SECOND CHANCES AFTER DEATH
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [Note: an actual dialogue in Hades between the Rich Man and Abraham]

6. THE RIGHTEOUS COMFORTED, THE UNRIGHTEOUS TORMENTED IN HADES
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

7. A HUGE CHASM BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE UNRIGHTEOUS DEAD
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

8. WISHFUL THINKING AND REGRETS IN HADES
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

9. CONFIRMATION THAT THE UNRIGHTEOUS ARE IN TORMENT AS A PRELUDE TO HELL
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

10. THE OLD TESTAMENT PRESENTS THE WAY OF SALVATION
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.[Note: this is exactly what Paul confirmed to Timothy -- And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. The Holy Scriptures = the Hebrew Tanakh = Moses and the Prophets]

11. THE MISTAKEN IDEA THAT MIRACLES WILL CONVINCE THE UNBELIEVING
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. [Note: even though Christ performed a multitude of miracles, the Jews generally did not accept Him as their Messiah/King]

12. THIS ALSO REFERS TO THE FACT THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST DID NOT BRING ISRAEL TO REPENTANCE
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Where is the good news?
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Ephesians 2:16-18 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Isaiah 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

 

[Marymog]

Luke 16:19-20 KJV
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: [20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

It is the only one of Jesus’ parables that involves a named figure–Lazarus.

In the course of the parable it is proposed that Lazarus come back from the dead of which the historical Lazarus actually did.

Luke knows the Bethany family to which Lazarus belonged as he mentions Mary and Martha (Luke 10:38-42).

Sooooo is this story even a parable? Or is it a straightforward account of what happened to Lazarus in the afterlife?

Bible Study Mary

 

[Willie T]

Yeah, I imagine Jesus worked hard to make things as confusing as He could for His listeners.

Do people sit up nights trying to dream all this stuff up? LOL

 

[Enoch111]

Where is the good news?

The Good News is throughout the New Testament. This narrative is a warning to the naysayers and the rejecters of Christ and the Gospel.

 

[Timtofly]

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Why send Lazarus? Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 16:27-29 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. [29] His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

Jesus did raise Lazarus from the dead. I wonder if he went and talked to those 5 brothers? Abraham said they would not even listen, when Lazarus, one raised from the dead, went to see them. Abraham prophecied, and Jesus confirmed it, that it takes more than dead people to convince a person of their need of Salvation. Thomas had to see the nail prints, and spear mark in the side. Jesus says, Blessed are those who believe and accept by faith, the Word of God.

 

[Enoch111]

It is the only one of Jesus’ parables that involves a named figure–Lazarus.

Parables are earthly stories with heavenly meanings. They illustrate spiritual truths. So if this is indeed a parable what does it illustrate?

Do you see how foolish it is to call this narrative a parable, when even Luke does not preface it with the statement "And Jesus spoke another parable"?

Luke 16 has a variety of topics within it, and they are not all necessarily connected to each other.
1. The parable of the Unjust Steward (vv 1-8)
2. The spiritual lesson contained in that parable (vv 9-12)
3. You cannot serve two masters and the condemnation of covetousnes (vv 13-15)
4. The Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached since John the Baptist (v 16)
5. The Word of God cannot fail (v 17)
6. Christ's teaching on divorce (v 18)
7. The unveiling of the afterlife -- not a parable (vv 19-31)

 

[Enoch111]

Yeah, I imagine Jesus worked hard to make things as confusing as He could for His listeners.

Just because you are confused does not mean that Jesus was confusing anyone. Luke has strung together a number of disconnected sayings and it is up to us to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

 

[Willie T]

Parables are earthly stories with heavenly meanings. They illustrate spiritual truths. So if this is indeed a parable what does it illustrate?

Do you see how foolish it is to call this narrative a parable, when even Luke does not preface it with the statement "And Jesus spoke another parable"?

Luke 16 has a variety of topics within it, and they are not all necessarily connected to each other.
1. The parable of the Unjust Steward (vv 1-8)
2. The spiritual lesson contained in that parable (vv 9-12)
3. You cannot serve two masters and the condemnation of covetousnes (vv 13-15)
4. The Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached since John the Baptist (v 16)
5. The Word of God cannot fail (v 17)
6. Christ's teaching on divorce (v 18)
7. The unveiling of the afterlife -- not a parable (vv 19-31)

Do you really think people in Heaven and those in Hell are going to be carrying on conversations with one another?

 

[Willie T]

Just because you are confused does not mean that Jesus was confusing anyone. Luke has strung together a number of disconnected sayings and it is up to us to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Good News is throughout the New Testament. This narrative is a warning to the naysayers and the rejecters of Christ and the Gospel.

Have to wonder though what it benefits our ego in saying we are not and have never been the one in the place of torment: asking for water.

 

[Marymog]

Parables are earthly stories with heavenly meanings. They illustrate spiritual truths. So if this is indeed a parable what does it illustrate?

Do you see how foolish it is to call this narrative a parable, when even Luke does not preface it with the statement "And Jesus spoke another parable"?

Luke 16 has a variety of topics within it, and they are not all necessarily connected to each other.
1. The parable of the Unjust Steward (vv 1-8)
2. The spiritual lesson contained in that parable (vv 9-12)
3. You cannot serve two masters and the condemnation of covetousnes (vv 13-15)
4. The Gospel of the Kingdom of God preached since John the Baptist (v 16)
5. The Word of God cannot fail (v 17)
6. Christ's teaching on divorce (v 18)
7. The unveiling of the afterlife -- not a parable (vv 19-31)

Ummmm......Ok. So you don't think it is a parable. You think it really happened?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Yup...Kinda does.

Why would Jesus put the life of Job in a parable when the story of Job was already known to the Jews at that time? Why not just talk about Job and use his name in the parable? (which then wouldn't be a parable)

Curious

Hey Marymog....when you get done here would you go check out that Satanism is in the Vatican thread and add to or give inpurt?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

that it takes more than dead people to convince a person of their need of Salvation

Good point. 2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2 Corinthians 4:9-12 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; [10] Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. [11] For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. [12] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

2 Corinthians 6:9-11 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; [10] As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. [11] O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.

 

[farouk]

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

@VictoryinJesus I was just thinking about this verse a few minutes ago, in whatever context it was.

(Hoping also your family illness is encompassed by the arms of the Lord.)

 

[farouk]

Where is the good news?
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Ephesians 2:16-18 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Isaiah 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

@VictoryinJesus Verses talking about different things; but yes, thematically relevant generally; good verses that preach well.

 

[Timtofly]

Good point. 2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2 Corinthians 4:9-12 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; [10] Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. [11] For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. [12] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

2 Corinthians 6:9-11 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; [10] As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. [11] O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.

We are the living dead, in Christ. Dead to our will and desire, alive to God's will and the mind of Christ.