The rich man and the beggar at his gate?

[Waiting on him]

In this parable are they two separate individuals, or are they one in the same?

 

[Waiting on him]

Luke 16:19-20 KJV
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: [20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

 

[Waiting on him]

If or before anyone answers please, think of Job.

 

[Willie T]

The fictitious character of the rich man in this parable represented "religious" Judaism, and the equally fictitious person of the beggar represented Christianity.

 

[Waiting on him]

The fictitious character of the rich man in this parable represented "religious" Judaism, and the equally fictitious person of the beggar represented Christianity.

Interesting perspective. Many on hear are profession Christians that are governed by the laws of Judaism.

 

[Willie T]

Think of the number of "brothers: the rich man said he had. What does that number equate to in the history of the tribes of Judaism.... and why would not the man simply ask Abraham to "go to my brothers" without specifying a particular number?

 

[Waiting on him]

Think of the number of "brothers: the rich man said he had. What does that number equate to in the history of the tribes of Judaism.... and why would not the man simply ask Abraham to "go to my brothers" without specifying a particular number?

Not really sure how 5 relates to Judaism?

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that could not possibly
be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets,
stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets,
women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the
wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told one that alleged the moon was made of green
cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was
fantasy; but not one of them is so far removed from the normal round of
human experience that it has no basis in reality whatsoever. No; there's
nothing out of the ordinary in his parables. At best; Christ's parables might
qualify as fiction; but never fantasy.

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable
theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life
man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least
three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8).

I simply cannot accept that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal
Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about
a famous real-life man; most especially a prophet and one of his Father's
buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the
story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said
things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the
commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

Abraham was also a prophet (Gen 20:7) which means he was an inspired
man. As such, he would be privy to information that would normally be
unavailable to the average rank and file pew warmer. However prophets
aren't meant to keep what they hear from God to themselves; they're
messengers, e.g. Abraham was a teacher/mentor. (Gen 18:19)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham
passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so,
means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich
man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are
wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings
are the voice of God.

There is something else to consider.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No,
it originated with his Father. In other words: Jesus Christ was micro
managed.

● John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

● John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

● John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

So, by alleging that Luke 16:19-31 is fiction/fantasy, the parable theory
slanders God by insinuating that He's a person of marginal integrity who
can't be trusted to tell the truth about people, not even about His own
friends, which is ridiculous seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that
God cannot lie.

God's impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more
terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of sensible doubt,
that Christ's Father is a tale-spinner; I pretty much have to assume Luke
16:19-31 was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at
least based upon real life.

In other words: there really is an afterlife place of conscious suffering where
people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones are on a road to
where they are and there is no way to warn them; similar to the survivors of
the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones while utterly helpless
to do anything about it.

People for whom I feel the most pity are parents that brought up their
children in a religion whose pot at the end of the rainbow is filled with
molten sulfur instead of gold. How do people bear up under something like
that on their conscience?
_

 

[Willie T]

Not really sure how 5 relates to Judaism?

It's actually "6", because the Rich Man was also one of the "brothers."

The Song of Deborah, widely acknowledged as one of the oldest passages in the Torah, mentions six tribes, Ephraim, Benjamin, Machir, Zebulun, Issachar, and Naphtali; Machir is described as a tribe in its own right and the other seven tribes are not mentioned at all.

And we know The Rich Man was a Torah-following Jew because he addressed Abraham as "Father Abraham." Lazarus, interestingly, is also a Greek name.

Might mean nothing. I just thought it was interesting.

 

[Willie T]

.
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's parables that could not possibly
be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets,
stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets,
women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the
wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told one that alleged the moon was made of green
cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was
fantasy; but not one of them is so far removed from the normal round of
human experience that it has no basis in reality whatsoever. No; there's
nothing out of the ordinary in his parables. At best; Christ's parables might
qualify as fiction; but never fantasy.

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable
theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life
man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least
three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8).

I simply cannot accept that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal
Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about
a famous real-life man; most especially a prophet and one of his Father's
buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the
story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said
things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the
commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

Abraham was also a prophet (Gen 20:7) which means he was an inspired
man. As such, he would be privy to information that would normally be
unavailable to the average rank and file pew warmer. However prophets
aren't meant to keep what they hear from God to themselves; they're
messengers, e.g. Abraham was a teacher/mentor. (Gen 18:19)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham
passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so,
means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich
man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are
wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings
are the voice of God.

There is something else to consider.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No,
it originated with his Father. In other words: Jesus Christ was micro
managed.

● John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

● John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

● John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

So, by alleging that Luke 16:19-31 is fiction/fantasy, the parable theory
slanders God by insinuating that He's a person of marginal integrity who
can't be trusted to tell the truth about people, not even about His own
friends, which is ridiculous seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that
God cannot lie.

God's impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more
terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of sensible doubt,
that Christ's Father is a tale-spinner; I pretty much have to assume Luke
16:19-31 was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at
least based upon real life.

In other words: there really is an afterlife place of conscious suffering where
people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones are on a road to
where they are and there is no way to warn them; similar to the survivors of
the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones while utterly helpless
to do anything about it.

People for whom I feel the most pity are parents that brought up their
children in a religion whose pot at the end of the rainbow is filled with
molten sulfur instead of gold. How do people bear up under something like
that on their conscience?
_

All that verbosity simply to ignore the fact that we are told, pretty emphatically, that Jesus never spoke to the crowds, except in Parables. (Matthew 13:34 Mark 4:34)

 

[Rita]

The fictitious character of the rich man in this parable represented "religious" Judaism, and the equally fictitious person of the beggar represented Christianity.

I didn’t know that, how interesting - food for thought x

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And we know The Rich Man was a Torah-following Jew

Luke 16:20-21 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

In Matthew He is the rich man at the table: Matthew 15:25-27 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. [26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Yet also: Isaiah 53:1-6 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[Waiting on him]

Luke 16:20-21 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

In Matthew He is the rich man at the table: Matthew 15:25-27 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. [26] But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. [27] And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Yet also: Isaiah 53:1-6 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Almost seems as if you are saying Lazarus is representative of Jesus?

 

[Marymog]

In this parable are they two separate individuals, or are they one in the same?

Hello,

No, they are not one in the same.

In the parable Lazarus was rewarded for his virtuous acceptance of poverty. The rich man was punished for his vicious neglect of the opportunities given him by his wealth.

Bible study Mary

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Almost seems as if you are saying Lazarus is representative of Jesus?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 13:3-4 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; [4] He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

John 13:5-8 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. [6] Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? [7] Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. [8] Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

 

[Waiting on him]

Hello,

No, they are not one in the same.

In the parable Lazarus was rewarded for his virtuous acceptance of poverty. The rich man was punished for his vicious neglect of the opportunities given him by his wealth.

Bible study Mary

Kinda sounds like the story of Job too me

 

[Waiting on him]

Hello,

No, they are not one in the same.

In the parable Lazarus was rewarded for his virtuous acceptance of poverty. The rich man was punished for his vicious neglect of the opportunities given him by his wealth.

Bible study Mary

Revelation 18:7-8 KJV
How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. [8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
How does this scripture fit with the story?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Almost seems as if you are saying Lazarus is representative of Jesus?

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Why send Lazarus? Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 16:27-29 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. [29] His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

John 4:10-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. [11] The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? [12] Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? [13] Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: [14] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[Willie T]

In any of this, ask yourself what Jesus' intent was. Was He trying to tell people something about the kingdom.... or just to see if He could confuse them with a story about going to Hell if you weren't generous?