The Sacrifice of Jesus.....revisited

[Bob Estey]

The sacrifice of Jesus:-

1...Was it to balance some sort of scales justice/injustice...cosmic or otherwise?
2...Was it because God had a taste for blood?
3...Is 'sacrifice' the right word ...and if so, why?
4...Did Jesus have anything to say about sacrifice....if so, what?

Who has the courage to think outside the square of this delicate subject and still be faithful to the intent of the scriptures?

a late Edit...
5...How is or what has The Kingdom of God to do or connected with sacrifice??

Satan could torture each one of us eternally for each sin we commit. However, he lost his ability to do that when he had Jesus murdered. That is because Jesus had committed no sin, so when Satan had Jesus murdered, Satan lost his credibility (and therefore, his ability to torture us forever).

 

[Aunty Jane]

Satan could torture each one of us eternally for each sin we commit.

And what makes you think that? Satan has been given relatively free reign to do to mankind whatever he wished in an attempt to prove that he was the better choice of "god" over them. (Luke 4:5-8) He painted Jehovah as a terrible Father for preventing his children from gaining knowledge that would benefit them. Has it benefited them in any way?
He slandered the Creator by lying to the woman about the penalty for disobeying his very clear command....in effect saying that God was the liar. Was God a liar or do all humans still die? (Romans 5:12)

However, he lost his ability to do that when he had Jesus murdered.

He lost no abilities when Jesus died. He has continued to wreak havoc upon mankind since the rebellion in Eden. He managed to get the Jews to murder their own Messiah, again by lies....and as Jesus foretold, the "weeds" sown by the devil would corrupt Christianity just as successfully as he corrupted Judaism.

Satan only loses his abilities when he is finally in the lake of fire...but God has not finished with him just yet. A thousand years in the abyss, and he will be "let loose again for a little while". (Revelation 20:1-3) After one final test the devil and his hordes will be destroyed...and will never bother mankind again.

That is because Jesus had committed no sin, so when Satan had Jesus murdered, Satan lost his credibility (and therefore, his ability to torture us forever).

When did satan ever have credibility? All he had was deception in order to lure both man and angels into the same course of rebellion that overtook him. He promises the world, but delivers only heartbreak. Mankind who do his bidding, deliver that heartbreak as we see all too clearly in the world at present getting closer and closer to the "great day of God the Almighty".

The judgment will be swift and the devil and his henchmen will be disabled for a thousand years, whist God gets us back what we lost....perfect sinless life forever in paradise on earth.

Now that is something to look forward to.

 

[Bob Estey]

And what makes you think that? Satan has been given relatively free reign to do to mankind whatever he wished in an attempt to prove that he was the better choice of "god" over them. (Luke 4:5-8) He painted Jehovah as a terrible Father for preventing his children from gaining knowledge that would benefit them. Has it benefited them in any way?
He slandered the Creator by lying to the woman about the penalty for disobeying his very clear command....in effect saying that God was the liar. Was God a liar or do all humans still die? (Romans 5:12)


He lost no abilities when Jesus died. He has continued to wreak havoc upon mankind since the rebellion in Eden. He managed to get the Jews to murder their own Messiah, again by lies....and as Jesus foretold, the "weeds" sown by the devil would corrupt Christianity just as successfully as he corrupted Judaism.

Satan only loses his abilities when he is finally in the lake of fire...but God has not finished with him just yet. A thousand years in the abyss, and he will be "let loose again for a little while". (Revelation 20:1-3) After one final test the devil and his hordes will be destroyed...and will never bother mankind again.


When did satan ever have credibility? All he had was deception in order to lure both man and angels into the same course of rebellion that overtook him. He promises the world, but delivers only heartbreak. Mankind who do his bidding, deliver that heartbreak as we see all too clearly in the world at present getting closer and closer to the "great day of God the Almighty".

The judgment will be swift and the devil and his henchmen will be disabled for a thousand years, whist God gets us back what we lost....perfect sinless life forever in paradise on earth.

Now that is something to look forward to.

Do I have to read all this?

 

[quietthinker]

This is a good topic....


Yes.....it was to fulfill God's Law...."eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life".
According to God's law penalties were designed to fit the crime. Capital crimes merited the death penalty, which fulfilled "a life for a life".

In Israel, if a man got himself into debt, he could be sentenced to work to pay off the debt to the one who was owed the money. If the man had a family to support, he could send one of his children into service to pay the debt. If the man died owing money, the debt was inherited by his children. This is what happened to Adam's children. He died without being able to pay the debt of sin and death that he left to them. (Romans 5:12)
If a wealthy relative or friend was benevolent, he could pay the debt and release the man or his children. That was called redemption. In much the same way as we can redeem something that we have pawned if we pay back what was borrowed against it.

For Adam's children, Jesus offered to pay the debt.....only it wasn't money. God's law demanded equivalency which is why sacrifices were calleed "atonement" (at-one-ment)...one for one. What Adam lost was perfect sinless life for himself, and when he died, his children were left with a debt that none of them could pay. Only another perfect sinless life could be offered to redeem his children. Jesus volunteered to be the one to offer his perfect life for theirs. This is why he had to come from outside of the now sinful human race.

John the Baptist called Jesus “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!”
Jesus himself said that he came “to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.”
John tells us that “the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”
Peter states that Christians were ransomed “with precious blood,” “even Christ’s.”
And Paul’s letters are replete with references to Christ’s sacrificial merit, such as, “God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."


The blood sacrifices undertaken in Israel all pointed forward to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. These provided temporary forgiveness, whereas Christ's sacrifice was once and for all time.....never needing to be repeated.
Blood is sacred to God and hence why his people were forbidden to consume it in any form, under penalty of death.


"Sacrifice" is an appropriate term because if someone loses their life rescuing someone else they are said to have sacrificed their life to save another from death. This is what Jesus did. It was like we were sentenced to stand before a firing squad and Jesus stepped on front of us to take the bullets. He died in our place.


As a devout Jew, Jesus was no stranger to sacrifice. He accompanied his parents throughout his youth to Jerusalem for the yearly festivals and sacrifice was part of Israel's worship.


Why does one need to think outside of any square? The scriptures very clearly state that Jesus was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world......but his sacrifice only applies to those who obey him in everything. Life was conditional from the very beginning.....only if the first humans obeyed their God, would they live. Failure to obey would end in death.....nothing has changed. God gives us every opportunity to repent and to be forgiven, but his patience has its limits. He will call all to an accounting.


The Kingdom of God is the governmental arrangement that God will set up over redeemed mankind once Jesus and his angelic forces have cleansed the earth of wickedness and all who practice it. Christ's sacrifice is their redemption, making everlasting life on earth again a reality.
The "sheep" will inherit unending life, whereas the "goats" will suffer the penalty of eternal death.

God's Kingdom of 1000 years with Jesus as king, and with his heavenly priesthood, will rule this earth in righteousness, and bring all redeemed mankind back to the sinless perfection that Adam and his wife had originally enjoyed. This will include all those whom Jesus will call out of their graves at the resurrection. (John 5:28-29)

After one final test, all will return to God's original purpose for this earth and mankind upon it. (Isaiah 55:11)

That is how I see the God's plan for mankind on this earth. He was never going to take any humans to heaven originally, because He already had a large family of spirit sons serving him there. Christ's ransom, and the Kingdom were only put in place to bring us back to square one. This life was an object lesson on what happens when we try to live independently of our Creator. We have proven that we cannot manage ourselves or the planet, without him.

In the story of the two debtors, both were forgiven promptly.
How is it we marry the words 'debt' and 'penalty' and leave 'consequence' out of the picture.

Did God say to Adam 'I will kill you if you eat of the tree'? or was death a consequence of eating?

 

[quietthinker]

Do I have to read all this?

lol

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do I have to read all this?

Oh dear....that was one of my short responses....

Since I addressed what you wrote in short readable sections......yes I'm afraid you do need to read all that, if you care about responding.
Topics that are important cannot, and should not be answered in 25 words or less.....do you have an attention span problem?

 

[Aunty Jane]

In the story of the two debtors, both were forgiven promptly.
How is it we marry the words 'debt' and 'penalty' and leave 'consequence' out of the picture.

Did God say to Adam 'I will kill you if you eat of the tree'? or was death a consequence of eating?

Now, you see you have muddied the waters already. What are consequences? Was the death penalty not a consequence? Did God tell them what would happen if they ate what he had claimed as his own property? Did he not enforce the death penalty by restricting access to the tree of life in order for the disobedient humans to die as he said they would.....not immediately, but eventually, because the only thing that could keep them living was withdrawn and an angel was posted to make sure they never had access to it again.
Did God "kill" them? Not directly, but nonetheless he caused their demise.

The ground was cursed and they had to become farmers in order to eke out an existence......the first murderer was produced within one generation.....but since humans were in short supply at the time, God did not enforce the immediate death penalty on Cain. Yet humans still die from a variety of causes.....none of which existed in Eden. Adam and his wife did not live happily ever after. We as their children inherited their defective genetics. (Romans 5:12)

Laws are what God gave his people. Failure to observe those laws carried penalties....capital crimes resulted in capital punishment.
Penalties are consequences.....I am sorry if that offends you.

 

[quietthinker]

Now, you see you have muddied the waters already. What are consequences? Was the death penalty not a consequence? Did God tell them what would happen if they ate what he had claimed as his own property? Did he not enforce the death penalty by restricting access to the tree of life in order for the disobedient humans to die as he said they would.....not immediately, but eventually, because the only thing that could keep them living was withdrawn and an angel was posted to make sure they never had access to it again.
Did God "kill" them? Not directly, but nonetheless he caused their demise.

The ground was cursed and they had to become farmers in order to eke out an existence......the first murderer was produced within one generation.....but since humans were in short supply at the time, God did not enforce the immediate death penalty on Cain. Yet humans still die from a variety of causes.....none of which existed in Eden. Adam and his wife did not live happily ever after. We as their children inherited their defective genetics. (Romans 5:12)

Laws are what God gave his people. Failure to observe those laws carried penalties....capital crimes resulted in capital punishment.
Penalties are consequences.....I am sorry if that offends you.

'I am the resurrection and the life'...'if you see me you see the Father'.....Jesus. God causes no-one's demise...he is the life giver, not the life taker. There is however a life taker who masquerades as God, even the God of this world. When these factors are confused many other factors are confused with it.

When you fall in the fire and are burnt, you suffer a consequence. Calling it a penalty is what muddies the water.
'Penalty' is arbitrary and imposed. Being burnt from falling in the fire is neither arbitrary or imposed as if there were some other option.

 

[Bob Estey]

Oh dear....that was one of my short responses....

Since I addressed what you wrote in short readable sections......yes I'm afraid you do need to read all that, if you care about responding.
Topics that are important cannot, and should not be answered in 25 words or less.....do you have an attention span problem?

I usually seem to be able to get my idea across in a short paragraph. Also, I'll only address one thing in a post. If there is more than one thing to address, then I'll address each in a separate post.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I usually seem to be able to get my idea across in a short paragraph.

Not always. Short paragraphs are for those with short attention spans. I am a stickler for detail.
The gist is not always the whole story. Short grabs leave out important details IMO.

Also, I'll only address one thing in a post. If there is more than one thing to address, then I'll address each in a separate post.

Fair enough. Feel free to do whatever suits your MO in responding. I will address each one separately if you like. But I cannot guarantee that they will be 25 words or less....

 

[Behold]

The sacrifice of Jesus:-

1...Was it to balance some sort of scales justice/injustice...cosmic or otherwise?

5...How is or what has The Kingdom of God to do or connected with sacrifice??

The end result of God as Christ dying on the Cross, is that by this sacrifice, God offers to the world the opportunity. to join His Spiritual Family.
John 3:16

"All that call on the name of Jesus, Shall be Saved"..........its really that simple.

The reason that God came here, Virgin Born, to be slaughtered for sin loving sinners, is 2 reasons.... 1.) because He is taking responsibility for the fact that you are born into such a situation as "heaven" and "hell" and "Satan" and "damnation".

See that?
You didnt ask to be born..... And God knows this. So, BECAUSE you are born into such a world, and such a horrible situation, He came to take care of it so that when you leave this world you are born into......you may leave it born again into HIS Heaven., if you will just BELIEVE in CHRIST and be born again.

What is that? That is #2.) That is God showing you how much He loves you. So much so, that HE DIED FOR YOU, and not because you are good, but because He is LOVE.

 

[Aunty Jane]

'I am the resurrection and the life'...'if you see me you see the Father'.....Jesus. God causes no-one's demise...he is the life giver, not the life taker. There is however a life taker who masquerades as God, even the God of this world. When these factors are confused many other factors are confused with it.

It is evident that you cannot process God as the taker of lives and yet the Bible accounts are full of occasions when he did. He is the giver AND taker of lives. Who caused the deaths of the rebels in the wilderness when the ground opened up and swallowed them? What kind of natural consequence did that demonstrate?

Let me ask you what caused the flood of Noah’s day? Did God actively *take* the lives of the Nephilim and the humans who disobeyed the warnings of his servant Noah? They were all given warning as to what God intended to do. What happened when the warning was ignored? The consequences of their disobedience was death. Did God strike them down individually or did he collectively eliminate them from existence by drowning them all?

When Ezekiel was assigned to be a prophet to God’s disobedient people what did God tell him?
Ezekiel 3:17-19....
“Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life.”

Tell me about consequences and where those consequences came from....when God says to someone wicked “you will surely die” it doesn’t mean the kind of death that all mankind is presently subjected to....this is death as a punishment. Why do you have a problem with punishment? God’s justice demands punishment, and God himself says “vengeance is mine, I shall repay” (Romans 12:19)....Do you find God’s vengeance unjust? Where do we get our own sense of justice?

When you fall in the fire and are burnt, you suffer a consequence. Calling it a penalty is what muddies the water.
'Penalty' is arbitrary and imposed. Being burnt from falling in the fire is neither arbitrary or imposed as if there were some other option.

God’s laws in Israel were arbitrary and imposed.....how are you even arguing this?
Is God not doing what YOU think is right? I think you need to take that up with him.....his word is not supporting your argument...

 

[Bob Estey]

Not always. Short paragraphs are for those with short attention spans. I am a stickler for detail.
The gist is not always the whole story. Short grabs leave out important details IMO.


Fair enough. Feel free to do whatever suits your MO in responding. I will address each one separately if you like. But I cannot guarantee that they will be 25 words or less....

I don't have the patience to read long posts.

 

[Curtis]

yet God forgives.

Yet only after we repent, believe, and are saved, are we forgiven.

God poured His wrath out on Jesus as our sacrificial lamb, so that whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life, and is saved from Gods wrath.

As Jesus said, those who reject Him are damned, in John 3.

I’ve explained this to you before.

God sets before us life or death, spiritual rebirth, or eternal damnation - it’s our choice - and you can’t just wish away hell and damnation into the cornfield like Billy Mumy in the Twilight Zone.

 

[Enoch111]

I usually seem to be able to get my idea across in a short paragraph.

And Jesus got His ideas across in SHORT SENTENCES. But you're on the right track.

 

[Aunty Jane]

And Jesus got His ideas across in SHORT SENTENCES. But you're on the right track.

But for his apostles he filled in the blanks with sound knowledge. The majority of the Jews who heard him did not follow him so he did not need to waste his time or his breath on them. They either accepted him as Messiah or they didn't. Those who didn't, listened to the wrong teachers and what he said was disparaged and he was treated like a false Messiah. The truth is never obvious to those whom God has not invited.

For those who need 25 words or less.....the Bible has a few more words than that for obvious reasons....

 

[quietthinker]

It is evident that you cannot process God as the taker of lives and yet the Bible accounts are full of occasions when he did. He is the giver AND taker of lives. Who caused the deaths of the rebels in the wilderness when the ground opened up and swallowed them? What kind of natural consequence did that demonstrate?

Let me ask you what caused the flood of Noah’s day? Did God actively *take* the lives of the Nephilim and the humans who disobeyed the warnings of his servant Noah? They were all given warning as to what God intended to do. What happened when the warning was ignored? The consequences of their disobedience was death. Did God strike them down individually or did he collectively eliminate them from existence by drowning them all?

When Ezekiel was assigned to be a prophet to God’s disobedient people what did God tell him?
Ezekiel 3:17-19....
“Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life.”

Tell me about consequences and where those consequences came from....when God says to someone wicked “you will surely die” it doesn’t mean the kind of death that all mankind is presently subjected to....this is death as a punishment. Why do you have a problem with punishment? God’s justice demands punishment, and God himself says “vengeance is mine, I shall repay” (Romans 12:19)....Do you find God’s vengeance unjust? Where do we get our own sense of justice?

I think there is more to these stories and understanding of the terms used like 'justice' that apportion blame to God....like the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah or the genocide recorded that Israel practised under the instruction of what they believed to be God.
I will not address this with you now AJ or this reason:- your view of Jesus and his role has severe limitations which you of course do not acknowledge but which in fact shuts the door of your understanding to much that is pertinent thereby disabling your ability to see no further than your theories.

Tell me about consequences and where those consequences came from....when God says to someone wicked “you will surely die” it doesn’t mean the kind of death that all mankind is presently subjected to....this is death as a punishment. Why do you have a problem with punishment? God’s justice demands punishment, and God himself says “vengeance is mine, I shall repay” (Romans 12:19)....Do you find God’s vengeance unjust? Where do we get our own sense of justice?

By your own admission you see 'God’s laws in Israel were arbitrary and imposed'. By taking this position you agree with Lucifer. It was this point of view forwarded with a silver tongue by this Angel that was the basis for the rebellion in heaven.
You interpret the words 'justice and punishment and vengeance through the lens of payback. You cannot see otherwise because your theology does not allow it. You effectually remain imprisoned in your understanding until you can realise that there is another way of seeing these expressions.

That other way is defined by Jesus....by his words and his actions.

The only correct way to interpret the Old Testament is through Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1.20 (I'm persuaded you do not even know what that means) Any other way takes you off the intended path.

 

[quietthinker]

Yet only after we repent, believe, and are saved, are we forgiven.

Jesus forgave sins before he died and when people didn't ask. What do we do with that?
It was this that got the religious folk's nose outta joint.....it threatened their temple economy.

 

[quietthinker]

But for his apostles he filled in the blanks with sound knowledge. The majority of the Jews who heard him did not follow him so he did not need to waste his time or his breath on them. They either accepted him as Messiah or they didn't. Those who didn't, listened to the wrong teachers and what he said was disparaged and he was treated like a false Messiah. The truth is never obvious to those whom God has not invited.

For those who need 25 words or less.....the Bible has a few more words than that for obvious reasons....

Keep in mind AJ that Solomon said 'a fool is known by his many words' ...hard to hear? no doubt, yet the truth of the matter stands!

 

[Aunty Jane]

"All that call on the name of Jesus, Shall be Saved"..........its really that simple.

If that is a quote from Acts 2:21..."And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.’" It is a quote from Joel 2:32 which says that "everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh will be saved." You see the large and small capitals there.....Jesus is not Yahweh. So calling on the name of the God of Jesus is necessary.
Jesus is the Mediator "through" whom we can approach God. If Jesus was God, we would need a Mediator between us and him too.

1.) because He is taking responsibility for the fact that you are born into such a situation as "heaven" and "hell" and "Satan" and "damnation".

I'm afraid that is Christendom's version of the situation....but it is nothing like the Bible's version.
Go back to the beginning and start from there.....was there ever mention of "heaven" and "hell" and "Satan" and "damnation" to Adam?

God's original purpose for humankind was entirely earthly. No human was destined for heaven because there was no sin, so unless Adam and his wife broke God's command, they would live forever on this earth, assigned to have in subjection all the creatures that God made to share this planet with us. There was no 'natural' cause of death because God's plan in the beginning was to have humans take care of his many material creatures on the first beautifully prepared and inhabited planet (that we know of) in the Universe.
And there was no "damnation" because that infers that being damned is eternal conscious suffering.....nowhere does the Bible say that this is anyone's destiny.

You didnt ask to be born..... And God knows this. So, BECAUSE you are born into such a world, and such a horrible situation....

That's right....we didn't ask to be born into this situation, but once we understand how it happened and what role Jesus played in our rescue, life becomes all the more precious because the odds of us being born at all are extremely low. All it would have taken is for one other sperm to have fertilized the egg first, or for our mother to have released a different egg....and we (as individuals) wouldn't even be here. So a little gratitude is in order, don't you think? We have something that can not be taken away except by God himself......life. Using it to promote true worship is the least we can do.

He came to take care of it so that when you leave this world you are born into......you may leave it born again into HIS Heaven., if you will just BELIEVE in CHRIST and be born again.

We were never meant to "leave this world"....not in the way Christendom imagines at least....
Death is the cessation of life, not a continuation of it. So being "born again" is not the same as resurrection, which is the hope that the Bible holds out for the majority of mankind. (John 5:28-29) The doctrine of an immortal soul has made the teaching of the resurrection completely redundant, whilst at the same time giving believers a false impression about their future.

It is only God's "elect" who will be "born again" as spirit beings in order to assist Jesus in the administration of his Kingdom in heaven. Not all Christians are heaven bound. Most will reside right here on earth where God put us at the start. He never intended to take any humans to heaven, but the rebellion in Eden made the sacrifice of Christ necessary, and the Kingdom was arranged to take us back to the paradise we lost through no fault of our own....so what is the Kingdom of God? Christendom doesn't seem to have a clue.

What do the opening words of the Lord's Prayer say......?
"Our Father, who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven."

What do those words mean? Most people parrot them off but do not know what it is that Jesus taught them to pray for.

That is God showing you how much He loves you. So much so, that HE DIED FOR YOU, and not because you are good, but because He is LOVE.

How can God die? How can mere humans kill God? Do you really think that is possible?
The Father is immortal, (an immortal cannot die) so if Jesus was God then he could not die to offer his human life in exchange for ours. If Jesus did not die, there is no redemption for us and we are still doomed.

Jesus died to save sinners, but those sinners had to get their act together so as not to take Christ's sacrifice and drag it through the mud for themselves repeatedly. Sin separates us from God, so if we sin deliberately with no regard or appreciation for Christ's shed blood, God will not apply the merits of Christ's sacrifice to us.....we will not qualify for it.