The salvation journey.

[Ernest T. Bass]

This has never been true. Whether in religion or in secular circles

People have always obeyed God or others under differentiating reasons.

I do not work for my company because I love my company. I work to earn a wage. so I can take care of my family.

At the same token, I work for my friends who need my help out of gratitude. I expect neither payment or anything in return for my work.

People do the same. They work for God in order to earn a wage or reward (in most cases, salvation) for a huge example. we can look to paul who called out the jews who tried to be circumcised to be saved. So even thought it was required for the old covenant. And many people do it because they are obaying God. It is not just obedience to God in which paul was calling out.

Most Christians do work out of gratitude and love for God. and expect nothing in return.

You yourself teach one must be baptized to be saved. So you are doing it to earn salvation. Myself and many thousands other of Christians do it out of gratitude and love for God. and expect nothing in return. They do it BECAUSE they were saved, Not in order to receive, earn or maintain salvation


As you say, Your argument fails miserably and suffers a horrific death, I already proved my point, and showed examples.

All you do is keep ignoring the obvious. And trying to show examples which do not prove your point

The mere fact Paul said if abraham was found by works, He incures debt proves that point. Not to mention the fact that that as I have posted numerous time, Grace and works do not mix. and we are saved by grace through faith not works.

As for Luther. I am not even sure he taught faith alone. Instead of trying to argue a point against someone long since dead. Why do you not sit and listen to the people you are talking to

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith not work

But true living faith is NEVER void of works.

We are not saved by faith plus works. in this lifetime or any lifetime. No matter what you say

Good God. Washing of regeneration is baptism of the HS not water baptism. Water baptism is a work of righteousness

Regeneration is new birth. Only God can make you born again.

You cause Paul to contradict himself. By saying he is saying works of righteousness is works to merit salvation. Then demand water baptism must be done to merit salvation.

you destroy your own argument



lol. Not by works of righteousness whihc we have done but BY HIS MERCY

If it is grace IT IS NO LONGER WORKS, otherwise Grace is no longer grace

For by GRACE we have been saved THROUGH FAITH. NOT OF WORKS. lest anyone should boast

You want to boast of your many works you do to earn salvation. Feel free.

I will boast in the work of God, who saved me. And continue to work for him out of gratitude and love for him. Not to gain something for my self.

Obedience is obedience.
1) The blind man's obedience in washing his eyes in the pool did not earn God's free gift of sight
2) Naaman's obedience in dipping 7 times did not earn God's free gift of healing
3) The obedience of the Jews in Acts 2 in repenting and being baptized did not earn the free gift or remission of sin/salvation

In not any instance above is obedience said to be a work of merit in earning God's free gift whereby God OWED man for his obedience. It takes obedience to become saved (Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized) and it takes obedience in maintaining salvation (Ephesians 2:10 doing good works) and none of this obedience (before or after salvation) earns the free gift of salvation. Hence baptism is obedience to God's will is not a work of merit just as the Christian's good works are not works of merit.

You have not shown the first example of a person's obedience to God's wil be called a work of merit and this is why the faith only argument is a dead argument.

Titus 3:5--------Holy Ghost ++++++ washing of reg >>>>>>>> saved
Cor 12:13-------Spirit +++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>>>> in the body
Jn 3:5-----------Spirit +++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the kingdom

Clearly Titus 3:5 refers to water baptism. The underlying Greek word for "washing of regeneration" is loutron. According the Thayer it means
"a bathing, bath, i. e. as well the act of bathing".

"The allusion, of course, is to the great bronze laver that stood at the entrance to the Jewish temple, in which priests washed themselves before engaging in their duties within the sanctuary. The analogy in the Christian religion is the baptistery, the same being the only laver connected with the holy faith, and being the place where sinners are cleansed and justified prior to their entry into the true sanctuary, which is the Lord's church. The use of the term laver is very fortunate, because the primary meaning of it, in context, is the baptistery, standing in a figure (metonymy) for baptism, for which alone a baptistery is used, and adequately translated as "washing." But please note the significance of this. It is a thundering, emphatic denial of the nonsense that "The washing referred to is wholly spiritual.(13)" Is a baptistery needed for that?"
Coffman Comm. (my emp)
(13) Hendrikson, NT Commentary, Titus 1957, p 391

And Titus 3:5 CONTRASTS works of merits in one doing his OWN righteousness from water baptism/washing of regeneration whereby obeying God's will in submitting to water baptism is not a work of merit......

"Human salvation is not achieved “by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves”(v. 5a). The term “works” can refer to efforts of human merit – of which one might boast (cf. Ephesians 2:9), or it may refer to acts of obedience required by God (cf. John 6:27-29). Clearly, in this instance, the former is in view. One cannot earn his salvation with meritorious deeds. Note the concluding phrase, “which we did ourselves.”

The root verb is poieo, which simply means to “do” something. J.H. Thayer noted, however, that the term may be used with “nouns describing a plan or course of action,” and he cited Titus 3:5 as an example (Greek Lexicon, p. 526). Paul’s meaning is this. No man has the ability to plan and execute a course of action by which he can achieve salvation on his own. Redemption, as system, proceeds from God alone.

Following the phrase, “which we did ourselves,” there is a contrasting conjunction, alla, which indicates that an “opposing thought” follows. One is not saved by his own righteousness; rather salvation is by God’s mercy. The preposition dia (translated “through”) is employed, which suggests that “by the agency of” or “means of” the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit" salvation is received.

One thing is clear. The “washing” and the “renewing” are not a part of those works of human righteousness that are repudiated."

Paul's Instruction to the Saints of Crete
(my emp)

Therefore "works of righteousness we have done" is not a reference to obeying God in submitting to water baptism but refers to man trying to devise his own plan of salvation apart/different from God's plan...which requires water baptism, loutron, a bathing.
As those Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost for they would not obey God's plan of salvation that does save but were trying to establish their own plan of salvation by following their own traditions.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Paul clearly taught faith + obedience = assurance of salvation, just like James, John, Peter, and Christ did.



The following is the TRUE , Biblical way to get your Assurance as taught by Paul.....Can you say with sincerity that “ Jesus is Lord?” .....Anybody Who lacks the Holy Spirit Of God within them can not utter that statement.....If you honestly Believe that Jesus is Lord and confess it with your mouth, that is proof that the Holy Spirit resumes within you —— Proving that you are Saved.....1Cor12:3..... you would probably require something a little more stringent—-“ Surely , we gotta do more than THAT!” You would probably think....it kinda goes against our human nature......Salvation is all about “Receiving” —- NOT “Achieving”...... it’s a FREE GIFT, Given to those who have given up on trying to merit it.....

The Gospel is NOT about what man does for God .....The Gospel is all about what God has done for hopeless and helpless man.....It takes a Contrite Heart to understand this.....that is the only type of Heart that God will respond to.....you’d best pray for one .....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Obedience is obedience.
1) The blind man's obedience in washing his eyes in the pool did not earn God's free gift of sight
2) Naaman's obedience in dipping 7 times did not earn God's free gift of healing
3) The obedience of the Jews in Acts 2 in repenting and being baptized did not earn the free gift or remission of sin/salvation

In not any instance above is obedience said to be a work of merit in earning God's free gift whereby God OWED man for his obedience. It takes obedience to become saved (Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized) and it takes obedience in maintaining salvation (Ephesians 2:10 doing good works) and none of this obedience (before or after salvation) earns the free gift of salvation. Hence baptism is obedience to God's will is not a work of merit just as the Christian's good works are not works of merit.

You have not shown the first example of a person's obedience to God's wil be called a work of merit and this is why the faith only argument is a dead argument.

Titus 3:5--------Holy Ghost ++++++ washing of reg >>>>>>>> saved
Cor 12:13-------Spirit +++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>>>> in the body
Jn 3:5-----------Spirit +++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the kingdom

Clearly Titus 3:5 refers to water baptism. The underlying Greek word for "washing of regeneration" is loutron. According the Thayer it means
"a bathing, bath, i. e. as well the act of bathing".

"The allusion, of course, is to the great bronze laver that stood at the entrance to the Jewish temple, in which priests washed themselves before engaging in their duties within the sanctuary. The analogy in the Christian religion is the baptistery, the same being the only laver connected with the holy faith, and being the place where sinners are cleansed and justified prior to their entry into the true sanctuary, which is the Lord's church. The use of the term laver is very fortunate, because the primary meaning of it, in context, is the baptistery, standing in a figure (metonymy) for baptism, for which alone a baptistery is used, and adequately translated as "washing." But please note the significance of this. It is a thundering, emphatic denial of the nonsense that "The washing referred to is wholly spiritual.(13)" Is a baptistery needed for that?"
Coffman Comm. (my emp)
(13) Hendrikson, NT Commentary, Titus 1957, p 391

And Titus 3:5 CONTRASTS works of merits in one doing his OWN righteousness from water baptism/washing of regeneration whereby obeying God's will in submitting to water baptism is not a work of merit......

"Human salvation is not achieved “by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves”(v. 5a). The term “works” can refer to efforts of human merit – of which one might boast (cf. Ephesians 2:9), or it may refer to acts of obedience required by God (cf. John 6:27-29). Clearly, in this instance, the former is in view. One cannot earn his salvation with meritorious deeds. Note the concluding phrase, “which we did ourselves.”

The root verb is poieo, which simply means to “do” something. J.H. Thayer noted, however, that the term may be used with “nouns describing a plan or course of action,” and he cited Titus 3:5 as an example (Greek Lexicon, p. 526). Paul’s meaning is this. No man has the ability to plan and execute a course of action by which he can achieve salvation on his own. Redemption, as system, proceeds from God alone.

Following the phrase, “which we did ourselves,” there is a contrasting conjunction, alla, which indicates that an “opposing thought” follows. One is not saved by his own righteousness; rather salvation is by God’s mercy. The preposition dia (translated “through”) is employed, which suggests that “by the agency of” or “means of” the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit" salvation is received.

One thing is clear. The “washing” and the “renewing” are not a part of those works of human righteousness that are repudiated."

Paul's Instruction to the Saints of Crete
(my emp)

Therefore "works of righteousness we have done" is not a reference to obeying God in submitting to water baptism but refers to man trying to devise his own plan of salvation apart/different from God's plan...which requires water baptism, loutron, a bathing.
As those Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost for they would not obey God's plan of salvation that does save but were trying to establish their own plan of salvation by following their own traditions.

Your refusal to understand the difference between a reward or wage earned by works. And a gift of grace which is freely given and paid by the giver is hard to comprehend

Water baptism is a work which you and I both have done,
Communion, or taking the lords supper is a work of righteousness I hope we have done
Praying without ceasing is a work of righteousness ness hopefully we have both done
Assembling together as Body is a work of righteousness hopefully we have both done
Studying the word, Giving to the poor. Serving the body, Loving the body, Loving ans serving our neighbors, and our enemies, are all works of righteousness which hopefully we have done

Paul said, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, But by Gods mercy he saved us. A work of righteousness is all of the above works I have mentioned. And there are so many more we do not have enough room here to type them all out.

Mercy is given to those who can not earn something, it is given to those who deserve something else. Something worse. In our case, death. It is By Gods grace and mercy he saved us, But the WASHING and RENEWAL of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Not by the washing of your pastor. Your priest, Your disciples. The one who led you to christ or whoever immersed you in water.

By the Holy Spirit

The work of the cross, is the work of God in the forgiveness of sin

The work of the Holy Spirit (through baptism (washing) and anointing (coming into) ministries of the Holy Spirit) is what washes us and makes us clean.

I suggest you quickly think about trying to attribute the work of God and the spiritual work of baptizing us into christ. to some man in a physical work of baptizing us in water, as a dangerous and deadly thought.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Your refusal to understand the difference between a reward or wage earned by works. And a gift of grace which is freely given and paid by the giver is hard to comprehend

Water baptism is a work which you and I both have done,
Communion, or taking the lords supper is a work of righteousness I hope we have done
Praying without ceasing is a work of righteousness ness hopefully we have both done
Assembling together as Body is a work of righteousness hopefully we have both done
Studying the word, Giving to the poor. Serving the body, Loving the body, Loving ans serving our neighbors, and our enemies, are all works of righteousness which hopefully we have done

Paul said, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, But by Gods mercy he saved us. A work of righteousness is all of the above works I have mentioned. And there are so many more we do not have enough room here to type them all out.

Mercy is given to those who can not earn something, it is given to those who deserve something else. Something worse. In our case, death. It is By Gods grace and mercy he saved us, But the WASHING and RENEWAL of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Not by the washing of your pastor. Your priest, Your disciples. The one who led you to christ or whoever immersed you in water.

By the Holy Spirit

The work of the cross, is the work of God in the forgiveness of sin

The work of the Holy Spirit (through baptism (washing) and anointing (coming into) ministries of the Holy Spirit) is what washes us and makes us clean.

I suggest you quickly think about trying to attribute the work of God and the spiritual work of baptizing us into christ. to some man in a physical work of baptizing us in water, as a dangerous and deadly thought.

The faith onlyists argument is dead for obedience to God's will is not a work of merit. Hence obeying God's will in submitting to water baptism is not a work of merit but doing GOD's righteousness and it is those who work righteousness that God accepts (Acts of the Apostles 10:35)

--If Noah's obedient work in building the ark was a work of merit, then the salvation of his house from the flood was OWED him by God and NOT OF GRACE
--If Naaman's obedience in dipping was a work of merit, then his cleansing was OWED him by God and and NOT OF GRACE
--If the blind man's obedience in washing his eyes at the pool was a work of merit, then his sight was OWED him by God and NOT OF GRACE

Wrongly attempting to make obedience a work of merit eliminates grace from the Bible. Therefore works of righteousness we have done per Titus 3:5 does not refer to obedience to God's will but to man trying to devise his OWN plan of salvation to save himself apart from GOD's plan. God's plan requires belief, repentance, confession and baptism and any plan of man that deviates away from God's plan is man trying to save himself by his OWN plans....."O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Those that deviate from God's plan to claiming that verbalizing a 'sinner's prayer will save or that faith only saves are directing their own steps.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The faith onlyists argument is dead for obedience to God's will is not a work of merit. Hence obeying God's will in submitting to water baptism is not a work of merit but doing GOD's righteousness and it is those who work righteousness that God accepts (Acts of the Apostles 10:35)

--If Noah's obedient work in building the ark was a work of merit, then the salvation of his house from the flood was OWED him by God and NOT OF GRACE
--If Naaman's obedience in dipping was a work of merit, then his cleansing was OWED him by God and and NOT OF GRACE
--If the blind man's obedience in washing his eyes at the pool was a work of merit, then his sight was OWED him by God and NOT OF GRACE

Wrongly attempting to make obedience a work of merit eliminates grace from the Bible. Therefore works of righteousness we have done per Titus 3:5 does not refer to obedience to God's will but to man trying to devise his OWN plan of salvation to save himself apart from GOD's plan. God's plan requires belief, repentance, confession and baptism and any plan of man that deviates away from God's plan is man trying to save himself by his OWN plans....."O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Those that deviate from God's plan to claiming that verbalizing a 'sinner's prayer will save or that faith only saves are directing their own steps.

lol

You keep denying the facts of life

If your working to EARN something, it is a work of merit

If your working out of gratitude, out of love out of expecting nothing in return. It is a work of righteousness.

Spin it however you want.

Your preaching salvation by works

Salvation is by GRACE period. But it will only be received by faith

Works are a result of this grace gift and an end result of true saving faith

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

lol

You keep denying the facts of life

If your working to EARN something, it is a work of merit

If your working out of gratitude, out of love out of expecting nothing in return. It is a work of righteousness.

Spin it however you want.

Your preaching salvation by works

Salvation is by GRACE period. But it will only be received by faith

Works are a result of this grace gift and an end result of true saving faith

Again, all your arguments are invalid, dead for the Bible NEVER defines obedience to God's will as a work of merit. You can't define obedience in an incorrect way then turn around and attack that incorrect definition YOU gave it. If you were correct in that obeying God is a work of merit, then evidently God commanding Noah to do the work of building an ark, God wanted Noah to merit the salvation of his house from the flood, therefore grace had nothing to do with it.

Obedience is a necessary condition to receive grace for if grace were completely unconditional then all men would unconditionally be saved Titus 2:11 but that is not the case therefore salvation must be conditional. Since all men are either obeying or disobeying God, and the disobedient/unrighteous will be lost, then obedience must be that necessary condition to receive grace.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, all your arguments are invalid, dead for the Bible NEVER defines obedience to God's will as a work of merit.

Your right

But the Bible does describe the error of people DOING the works of obedience to MERIT SALVATION.

You can deny it all you want. It will not make it any less true

You can't define obedience in an incorrect way then turn around and attack that incorrect definition YOU gave it. If you were correct in that obeying God is a work of merit, then evidently God commanding Noah to do the work of building an ark, God wanted Noah to merit the salvation of his house from the flood, therefore grace had nothing to do with it.

Obedience is a necessary condition to receive grace for if grace were completely unconditional then all men would unconditionally be saved Titus 2:11 but that is not the case therefore salvation must be conditional. Since all men are either obeying or disobeying God, and the disobedient/unrighteous will be lost, then obedience must be that necessary condition to receive grace.

ROM 11: 6 IF IT IS OF GRACE IT IS NO LONGER OF WRKS, OTHERWISE GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE. IF IT IS OF WORKS IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE, OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK.

It is you sir who totally reject that fact that works cancels out grace. And grace cancels our works.

You can not have it both ways.

We are saved BY GRACE

We are justified BY GRACE

We are made right with God BY GRACE

We are born again BY GRACE.

Spin it however you want. If you are trying to add works to grace. YOU CANCELS OUT GRACE

If we are working to GAIN, MAINTAIN OR KEEP FROM LOSING. We are working to MERIT SALVATION.

I have known you for multiple years through multiple chatrooms. And it saddens me to the core that you still can not fathom this basic biblical truth. And refuse to repent of your faith in self and not God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Here is the first thing we must agree on.
At the very start of the salvation journey, we are all in the same state of being. And that is we are born into this world and have been bought and paid for by the work of Jesus Christ on Calvary, This is Grace. At this beginning stage, although we are under Grace "we do not have the Spirit of Christ inside us yet."

ah, so Esau then, right

 

[bbyrd009]

Again, all your arguments are invalid, dead for the Bible NEVER defines obedience to God's will as a work of merit. You can't define obedience in an incorrect way then turn around and attack that incorrect definition YOU gave it. If you were correct in that obeying God is a work of merit, then evidently God commanding Noah to do the work of building an ark, God wanted Noah to merit the salvation of his house from the flood, therefore grace had nothing to do with it.

Obedience is a necessary condition to receive grace for if grace were completely unconditional then all men would unconditionally be saved Titus 2:11 but that is not the case therefore salvation must be conditional. Since all men are either obeying or disobeying God, and the disobedient/unrighteous will be lost, then obedience must be that necessary condition to receive grace.

im pretty sure i saw a v about wanting to be rewarded for what you should have been doing anyway,
but i cant find it for some reason this am

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Your right

But the Bible does describe the error of people DOING the works of obedience to MERIT SALVATION.

You can deny it all you want. It will not make it any less true

There is not a single case of obedience to God being called a work of merit.

Works of merit and obedience are two completely different things.

Romans 10:3 easily, clearly demonstrates all works are not alike. Those Jews were lost for they were doing the WRONG TYPE of work, they were following their own traditions and trying to merit salvation by their moral performance. Had that done a DIIFERENT WORK in obeying God's righteous commands, they would have been saved.

ROM 11: 6 IF IT IS OF GRACE IT IS NO LONGER OF WRKS, OTHERWISE GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE. IF IT IS OF WORKS IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE, OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK.

It is you sir who totally reject that fact that works cancels out grace. And grace cancels our works.

You can not have it both ways.

We are saved BY GRACE

We are justified BY GRACE

We are made right with God BY GRACE

We are born again BY GRACE.

Spin it however you want. If you are trying to add works to grace. YOU CANCELS OUT GRACE

If we are working to GAIN, MAINTAIN OR KEEP FROM LOSING. We are working to MERIT SALVATION.

I have known you for multiple years through multiple chatrooms. And it saddens me to the core that you still can not fathom this basic biblical truth. And refuse to repent of your faith in self and not God.

In Romans 10, Paul shows us the Jews were lost for they would not obey God. In Romans 11 Paul tells us God's people has always been those who OBEY him as those who obeyed by not bowing to Baal......

"But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."

Obviously then the "works" here do not refer to obedience to God.....

---the Jews were lost for they would not obey the righteous commands of God, Romans 10:3.

---if a Jew could keep the law perfectly, then the Jew would have no sin and those with no sin are not in need of grace. Yet no one's obedience is going to be perfect meaning obedience does leave one in need of grace whereas perfect works is "no more of grace".

---since obedience REQUIRES grace and flawless works do not, then Paul is NOT CONTRASTING obedience to grace since imperfect obedience requires grace but is contrasting perfect flawless works to grace for perfect flawless works is not of grace. Paul has already in Romans required obedience to be saved in repenting (Romans 2:4-5) confession (Romans 10:10) and being baptized (Romans 6:3-6)..."obedience unto righteousness (Romans 6:16) obeyed from the heart, then justified/freed from sin (Romans 6:17-18). What Paul is stressing to the Jew here is that his reliance on keeping the law flawlessly, perfectly to obtain justification will fail. Therefore the Jew need to obey God and rely on grace that God gives to the obedient to obtain justification from God.


"Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?" RL Whiteside (my emp)


---Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." John's parents are said to be "blameless" but that does not mean they lived perfectly sinless lives for they sinned. Yet even though they sinned God still saw them as "righteous", why? Because they obeyed God in walking in all the commands and statutes of God and Paul in Rom 4 quoting David said to such people God will not impute sin. Their obedience in doing God's commands did not earn them their righteous standing with God but obedience is a necessary prerequisite God requires for one to be righteous. Since their obedience was not perfect then it could not earn/merit that righteousness, so obedience does not, cannot earn righteous standing with God, hence obedience cannot rightly be called a work of merit for it cannot merit any free gift of God. It therefore does not take perfect, flawless sinless law keeping to be righteous, it takes God to make one righteous and God makes righteous those who conditionally obey them. And since they obey, then God forgives and forgets their sin making them righteous before God.

---I am not going to throw out the window Bible truths, Bible facts, simple logic, reality and reasoning just to go along with Luther's faith onlyism.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

im pretty sure i saw a v about wanting to be rewarded for what you should have been doing anyway,
but i cant find it for some reason this am

These may not be the verses you are trying to remember, but Luke 17:7-10 comes to my mind...

But who is there of you, having a servant plowing or keeping sheep, that will say unto him, when he is come in from the field, Come straightway and sit down to meat; and will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank the servant because he did the things that were commanded?
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

Man should be obeying God, man has a duty to obey God (Ecclesiastes 12:13). But even when man does what he should be doing in obeying God he still is an unprofitable servant for he cannot fully keep perfectly those commands leaving him in need of grace. "This remarkable parable is clearly a lesson designed to teach humility, obedience, and a sense of lacking any merit in the sight of God." (Coffman)(my emp).
So how can it be argued by some here that obedience in doing God's will is me meriting my salvation when my imperfect obedience leaves me unprofitable???

Luke 17:7-9 the servant was only doing what he was suppose to be doing, yet he didn't deserve thanks or merit for those things he was suppose to be doing....

"There is no special merit in doing what you are supposed to do..........Since in God’s sight no one can even fulfill their duty (Psalms 143:2), it is not possible for someone to do more than their duty. One who has great faith has no reason to be proud of what he does! God owes us nothing just because we do a good job. The eternal reward comes through grace, not debt (Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:4-10). But notice the warning in Romans 6:1-2." (The Bible Study NT; Ice)(my emp).

And that warning in Romans 6 is just because one is saved by grace does not license him to disobey God and live in sin. Lack of obedience leaves one lost serving "sin unto death". Obedience leaves one serving "obedience unto righteousness" and saved but obedience earns nothing for one is still unprofitable for one cannot perfectly carryout and fulfill all their duty in obeying God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is not a single case of obedience to God being called a work of merit.

Works of merit and obedience are two completely different things.

Romans 10:3 easily, clearly demonstrates all works are not alike. Those Jews were lost for they were doing the WRONG TYPE of work, they were following their own traditions and trying to merit salvation by their moral performance. Had that done a DIIFERENT WORK in obeying God's righteous commands, they would have been saved.

A work which is done to earn something is a work of merit.

You can deny it 1000 times. It is and always will be a work of merit

The jews were using the work of circumcision as a work of merit. Paul called the out on it. He even called the fools.

Why is their work of merit any different than your works of merit? Can you explain that?

In Romans 10, Paul shows us the Jews were lost for they would not obey God. In Romans 11 Paul tells us God's people has always been those who OBEY him as those who obeyed by not bowing to Baal......

"But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace."

Obviously then the "works" here do not refer to obedience to God.....

---the Jews were lost for they would not obey the righteous commands of God, Romans 10:3.

---if a Jew could keep the law perfectly, then the Jew would have no sin and those with no sin are not in need of grace. Yet no one's obedience is going to be perfect meaning obedience does leave one in need of grace whereas perfect works is "no more of grace".

---since obedience REQUIRES grace and flawless works do not, then Paul is NOT CONTRASTING obedience to grace since imperfect obedience requires grace but is contrasting perfect flawless works to grace for perfect flawless works is not of grace. Paul has already in Romans required obedience to be saved in repenting (Romans 2:4-5) confession (Romans 10:10) and being baptized (Romans 6:3-6)..."obedience unto righteousness (Romans 6:16) obeyed from the heart, then justified/freed from sin (Romans 6:17-18). What Paul is stressing to the Jew here is that his reliance on keeping the law flawlessly, perfectly to obtain justification will fail. Therefore the Jew need to obey God and rely on grace that God gives to the obedient to obtain justification from God.


"Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?" RL Whiteside (my emp)


---Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." John's parents are said to be "blameless" but that does not mean they lived perfectly sinless lives for they sinned. Yet even though they sinned God still saw them as "righteous", why? Because they obeyed God in walking in all the commands and statutes of God and Paul in Rom 4 quoting David said to such people God will not impute sin. Their obedience in doing God's commands did not earn them their righteous standing with God but obedience is a necessary prerequisite God requires for one to be righteous. Since their obedience was not perfect then it could not earn/merit that righteousness, so obedience does not, cannot earn righteous standing with God, hence obedience cannot rightly be called a work of merit for it cannot merit any free gift of God. It therefore does not take perfect, flawless sinless law keeping to be righteous, it takes God to make one righteous and God makes righteous those who conditionally obey them. And since they obey, then God forgives and forgets their sin making them righteous before God.

---I am not going to throw out the window Bible truths, Bible facts, simple logic, reality and reasoning just to go along with Luther's faith onlyism.

You failed to answer many question

PAUL SAID IF IT IS OF GRACE IT NOT OF WORKS. OTHERWISE GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.

Answer why paul was in error. Otherwise. I will consider you as you have always been unresponsive. I believe for people who see the room, have seen enough to see our different points of views. And have the ability to chose now.

 

[bbyrd009]

well ive read that three times, and it seems to me yall are mostly agreeing with each other?

Luke 17:7-9 the servant was only doing what he was suppose to be doing, yet he didn't deserve thanks or merit for those things he was suppose to be doing...

nice, ty

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

A work which is done to earn something is a work of merit.

You can deny it 1000 times. It is and always will be a work of merit

The jews were using the work of circumcision as a work of merit. Paul called the out on it. He even called the fools.

Why is their work of merit any different than your works of merit? Can you explain that?



You failed to answer many question

PAUL SAID IF IT IS OF GRACE IT NOT OF WORKS. OTHERWISE GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.

Answer why paul was in error. Otherwise. I will consider you as you have always been unresponsive. I believe for people who see the room, have seen enough to see our different points of views. And have the ability to chose now.

Obedience is not a work done to earn some thing. Naaman's dipping 7 times in the river did not merit his healing for that was of grace but it took obedience to receive God's grace.

I have replied to Romans 11:6 MULTIPLE TIMES showing the "not of works" refers to works of merit and not obedience for Romans 11 shows God's people has always been those who obey Him (see my post #190). The Jews would not obey (Romans 10:16) therefore God broke them off (Romans 11:20-23)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

lol

You keep denying the facts of life

If your working to EARN something, it is a work of merit

If your working out of gratitude, out of love out of expecting nothing in return. It is a work of righteousness.

Spin it however you want.

Your preaching salvation by works

Salvation is by GRACE period. But it will only be received by faith

Works are a result of this grace gift and an end result of true saving faith

Your argument is dead in calling obedience to God a work of merit, but you cannot bring yourself to accept that obedience earns nothing but is necessary to receive grace not merit grace.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

well ive read that three times, and it seems to me yall are mostly agreeing with each other?
nice, ty

I do not agree with Luther's faith only, I do not agree that obedience to God is meriting salvation.

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not agree with Luther's faith only, I do not agree that obedience to God is meriting salvation.

ah

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your argument is dead in calling obedience to God a work of merit, but you cannot bring yourself to accept that obedience earns nothing but is necessary to receive grace not merit grace.

You can not even listen to a person

I never said obedience is a work of merit.

I said many people obey as a work of meriting salvation.

You have not changed one bit. I feel sorry for you

 

[Titus]

Obedience is obedience.
1) The blind man's obedience in washing his eyes in the pool did not earn God's free gift of sight
2) Naaman's obedience in dipping 7 times did not earn God's free gift of healing
3) The obedience of the Jews in Acts 2 in repenting and being baptized did not earn the free gift or remission of sin/salvation

In not any instance above is obedience said to be a work of merit in earning God's free gift whereby God OWED man for his obedience. It takes obedience to become saved (Acts 2:38 repent and be baptized) and it takes obedience in maintaining salvation (Ephesians 2:10 doing good works) and none of this obedience (before or after salvation) earns the free gift of salvation. Hence baptism is obedience to God's will is not a work of merit just as the Christian's good works are not works of merit.

You have not shown the first example of a person's obedience to God's wil be called a work of merit and this is why the faith only argument is a dead argument.

Titus 3:5--------Holy Ghost ++++++ washing of reg >>>>>>>> saved
Cor 12:13-------Spirit +++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>>>> in the body
Jn 3:5-----------Spirit +++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the kingdom

Clearly Titus 3:5 refers to water baptism. The underlying Greek word for "washing of regeneration" is loutron. According the Thayer it means
"a bathing, bath, i. e. as well the act of bathing".

"The allusion, of course, is to the great bronze laver that stood at the entrance to the Jewish temple, in which priests washed themselves before engaging in their duties within the sanctuary. The analogy in the Christian religion is the baptistery, the same being the only laver connected with the holy faith, and being the place where sinners are cleansed and justified prior to their entry into the true sanctuary, which is the Lord's church. The use of the term laver is very fortunate, because the primary meaning of it, in context, is the baptistery, standing in a figure (metonymy) for baptism, for which alone a baptistery is used, and adequately translated as "washing." But please note the significance of this. It is a thundering, emphatic denial of the nonsense that "The washing referred to is wholly spiritual.(13)" Is a baptistery needed for that?"
Coffman Comm. (my emp)
(13) Hendrikson, NT Commentary, Titus 1957, p 391

And Titus 3:5 CONTRASTS works of merits in one doing his OWN righteousness from water baptism/washing of regeneration whereby obeying God's will in submitting to water baptism is not a work of merit......

"Human salvation is not achieved “by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves”(v. 5a). The term “works” can refer to efforts of human merit – of which one might boast (cf. Ephesians 2:9), or it may refer to acts of obedience required by God (cf. John 6:27-29). Clearly, in this instance, the former is in view. One cannot earn his salvation with meritorious deeds. Note the concluding phrase, “which we did ourselves.”

The root verb is poieo, which simply means to “do” something. J.H. Thayer noted, however, that the term may be used with “nouns describing a plan or course of action,” and he cited Titus 3:5 as an example (Greek Lexicon, p. 526). Paul’s meaning is this. No man has the ability to plan and execute a course of action by which he can achieve salvation on his own. Redemption, as system, proceeds from God alone.

Following the phrase, “which we did ourselves,” there is a contrasting conjunction, alla, which indicates that an “opposing thought” follows. One is not saved by his own righteousness; rather salvation is by God’s mercy. The preposition dia (translated “through”) is employed, which suggests that “by the agency of” or “means of” the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit" salvation is received.

One thing is clear. The “washing” and the “renewing” are not a part of those works of human righteousness that are repudiated."

Paul's Instruction to the Saints of Crete
(my emp)

Therefore "works of righteousness we have done" is not a reference to obeying God in submitting to water baptism but refers to man trying to devise his own plan of salvation apart/different from God's plan...which requires water baptism, loutron, a bathing.
As those Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost for they would not obey God's plan of salvation that does save but were trying to establish their own plan of salvation by following their own traditions.

If water baptism is a work of merit:
Then disobedience against the commandments of Jesus and His apostles preaching is the only way not to merit our salvation.
For Jesus commanded it, Mark 16:15-16.
The apostles preached it, Acts 2:38; 1Peter 3:20-21

Acts 2:41
Then those who gladly recieved his word were baptized(merited according to no works salvationists) and that day about three thousand souls were added to them(through merit because they obeyed by being baptized).

Obedience =merit to the faith alone doctrine

disobedience to Jesus gospel = salvation, Matthew 7:21-23

The interpretation of water baptism by no works salvationists:

Mark 16:15-16
He who believes and is baptized(merit) will be saved
( through merit if you obey this command to be baptized)
but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Apparently obeying Jesus is meriting salvation to some.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If water baptism is a work of merit:
Then disobedience against the commandments of Jesus and His apostles preaching is the only way not to merit our salvation.
For Jesus commanded it, Mark 16:15-16.
The apostles preached it, Acts 2:38; 1Peter 3:20-21

Acts 2:41
Then those who gladly recieved his word were baptized(merited according to no works salvationists) and that day about three thousand souls were added to them(through merit because they obeyed by being baptized).

Obedience =merit to the faith alone doctrine

disobedience to Jesus gospel = salvation, Matthew 7:21-23

The interpretation of water baptism by no works salvationists:

Mark 16:15-16
He who believes and is baptized(merit) will be saved
( through merit if you obey this command to be baptized)
but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Apparently obeying Jesus is meriting salvation to some.

Yes. If obedience is a work of merit, then wherever in the Bible we see "obedience" and replace obedience with "works of merit" then verses as Hebrews 5:9 now reads "Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that have works of merit". 2 Thessalonians 1:8 now reads "in flaming fire God will have vengeance upon those who have no works of merit". If obeying by repenting and being baptized are works of merit, then Peter in Acts 2:38 commanded them to have "works of merit for remission of sins"