1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The School of the prophets: God's rules

Discussion in 'The Church Forum' started by michaelvpardo, Feb 6, 2017.

  1. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    418
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You make no sense.

    Your comparing 'righteousness' under the Law to 'righteousness' under Grace. Paul was not under the Law to not return Onesimus. And there was no Law under Grace that required him to return Onesimus. He did it because it was the right thing to do, for apparently Onesimus had wronged Philemon in some way also. (Phil. 18-19) Paul was removing any obstacle that would cause a rift between he and Philemon and others also who knew them. As (9) says, "Yet for love's sake" You should appreciate that seeing how your big on 'unity'.

    Concerning 'self-righteousness', I guess we have to go on your definition? Which is what? For you have 'righteousness' obtained by the Law, and 'righteousness' obtained by faith. what are you calling 'self-righteous'?

    Well, as a sinner, I am like Paul. The worst. Which must mean I have plenty of issues. But, recognizing you're a sinner doesn't tend to make you 'self-righteous'.

    No, concerning the incident between Paul and Barnabas over Mark was not due to self-righteousness on Paul's part. It was due to Mark not being ready, which he already proved when he abandoned them before.

    Stranger
     
    tabletalk likes this.
  2. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,304
    Likes Received:
    269
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I would simply add that there are a lot of assumptions going on in Michael's post. First, we do not know for sure that Onesimus was a run-away. Second, we do not know that Onesimus was unwilling to return. It could be that after his conversion, he wanted to go back and make things right with his master. Or, even that he did not object to this suggestion by Paul. Third, it is clear that Paul is sending Onesimus back to a Christian owner, who is likely not harsh or abusive. There is nothing here to suggest that Paul is trying to protect Onesimus from abusive treatment, but that simply Paul wants not debts of absence to be held to his account and desires he be treated as a beloved son rather than a slave. Finally, it is evident that Paul is acting in brotherly love toward another Christian. He is not wanting to deprive another brother of their goods for his own personal benefit. Thus, the focus is not simply on Onesimus' well-being, but Paul wanting to do right by another Christian brother.

    If anything, this letter shows Paul's incredible kindness, love and selflessness in dealing with others. There is nothing here that suggests Onesimus is being mistreated or mishandled by Paul. Quite the opposite. To say this letter reveals some sinful bent in Paul against desires of God on how to show kindness and care to others is mind-blowing to me. If someone can see self-righteousness and lawlessness in this letter regarding the love, concern for, and payment of a slaves debt and plea for them to be accepted as ones own son...then I simply think such hermeneutics are beyond the reach of reason.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  3. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Its also clear that Paul transgressed the law willfully and that some saint worshippers have a problem with the truth.
     
  4. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I can tell you where to find a free on-line dictionary, but somehow I doubt that it would help.
    My e-version Websters' defines "self-righteous":
    "convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others: narrow-mindedly moralistic.

    The two people that I've been in arguments with here unrelated to the topic or in obfuscation of the same are both perfect examples of this definition.

    16. "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
    17. "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
    19. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20. "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
    Matthew 7:16-20

    The Lord will judge all men according to their words, but we are what we do, not what we say.

    35. "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
    36. "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
    37. "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.''
    Matthew 12:35-37

    And just in case you haven't seen it yet:

    So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'' Matthew 19:17

    These verses are not the good news, but this is: "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

    I didn't anticipate touching on the gospel in this thread, but the verses certainly do apply to God's rules for the prophet and probably more so than any other.
     
  5. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    418
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No, I need your definition. Because the dictionary is not making the distinction between which righteousness is being addressed. And for some reason, you didn't answser either. So, which righteousness are you speaking of?

    Stranger
     
  6. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    More cliff notes theology. Only a theologian or someone as ignorant would try to redefine the meaning of words according to his faith. Good luck though with the box that you're building to live in, perhaps like Noah's ark it will keep you safe during the coming judgment.
     
  7. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    418
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I'm trying to operate in the box you built. Which is why I need your definitions. You have used the word 'self-righteous'. But you have abused it in your comparison with Paul. Which is why I ask.

    Stranger
     
  8. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,643
    Likes Received:
    418
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You add many verses but make no connection how they pertain to self-righteousness.

    Stranger
     
  9. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,304
    Likes Received:
    269
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Um, if you had read my post, you would see that this is not "clear." This isn't about worshipping Paul. It is about you claiming that and inspired writher of Scripture commands someone to do something that is wicked. Apparently you feel you are a better gauge of truth right and wrong than the teaching of the NT? Or, do you suppose the Holy Spirit inspired this to show that the Spirit of God is prone to willful transgression? Really, how is it you determine what passages are acceptable and which are inappropriate and marred by the faults of the author?

    How is it that "God rules" if we cannot even trust the Scriptures? It would seem your view is that God cannot even communicate accurately due to his messengers self-righteousness and willful sin.
     
  10. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I said no such thing, what I did say is that Paul willfully disobeyed the commandment of God and if you believe that its okay to do that then you are the heretic.
     
  11. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,304
    Likes Received:
    269
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Well, if you believe his willful disobedience is part of the inspired Word of God, then I think all of church history and orthodoxy stands with me, not you. Can you find me a church father or prominent church teaching in history that validates your view that Paul's willful and sinful tendencies were infused into his writings in the NT?
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    5,186
    Likes Received:
    799
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    Onesimus pretty obviously returned willingly, Paul didn't exactly drag him back in chains.
     
  13. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,196
    Likes Received:
    138
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Why would I care about the opinions of poorly educated primitives who had little understanding of scripture and practiced a paganized form of "Christianized" Judaism?
    I'm a servant of the living God and a part of His body, not of some human institution. I'm not even a member of the congregation that I attend, because it was required of the Lord and of His righteousness that I make my stand alone. My testimony, given at my baptism and before a congregation of the saints, was that I could loose everything and still have Christ. I have and I do. Do you?
     
  14. DPMartin

    DPMartin Active Member

    Messages:
    672
    Likes Received:
    155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    then don't post here

    then don't post here, take your self righteous arrogance some where else. most people that witness to others of their own righteousness are usually liars anyway.

    what a bunch of self righteous hooey there huh. it takes intelligence to deceive others, but it takes faith to please God. and in your statements I don't see God as your witness.
     
  15. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    330
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Some good discussion here...

    I submit, that the Holy Spirit (our Helper in all things) has clarified that "the spirit of Christ is the spirit of prophecy."

    However, as such, Christ himself told us “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Thus agreement or disagreement among true prophecy, is not in question. And yet, all who know God, know that he does not contradict himself...but rather works all things together for good, for those who love him.

    Nevertheless, that does not mean that a false prophet does the will of God according to God's judgement...but rather according to his will [only], which in addition to working all things together for those who love him, is also meant to condemn those who do not. So, then, is a false prophet justified? Certainly not! No - he condemns himself along with the children of lies who follow them.

    A simple test, is that we should know His voice...with the caution, that we take heed that the light that is within us...is not darkness.
     
  16. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    1,994
    Likes Received:
    383
    Faith:
    Christian
    I don't follow. Are you saying that the many understandings of prophecy is to our benefit?
     
  17. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    330
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No, but rather it is a form of blindness toward the truth, compounding even the saints. Just as Israel is held in blind until these day (of the gentiles) are fulfilled, we too are held in a similar blindness, not for our own benefit, but for the benefit of those who follow. Imagine the task of offering equal knowledge and hope, limited, so that all generations may come before God equally (and none should boast). God is great - working all this together for those who love him from all generations (equally)!
     
  18. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

    Messages:
    1,994
    Likes Received:
    383
    Faith:
    Christian
    So there must be some ignorance now in order for there to be revelations later. It makes sense.

    In this time (of the gentiles), I believe God only reveals that which is beneficial for us to know according to his plans. Mainly this consists of building people up in faith. Hope for the future can also be given. If you count words of knowledge as prophecy God guides their prayers in a certain direction.

    To my knowledge God doesn't reveal things that would give people an opportunity to boast in their knowledge.
     
  19. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    931
    Likes Received:
    330
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    With knowledge actually from God comes humility. Boasting is not an option.
     
  20. DPMartin

    DPMartin Active Member

    Messages:
    672
    Likes Received:
    155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    na, na na na, mankind boasts of what knowledge they have, or think they have all the time, and anything that is, that mankind is aware of is revealed by its Maker, isn't it? so, God does allow man to be aware of His works and let them boast of the knowledge thereof, even to where they deny its His works, doesn't He?


    and the wise walk humbly with their God, which is God's choice because that is what God chooses to walk with, in the case of the sons of men.
     
Loading...