The School of the prophets: Introduction

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Deborah_

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Prophets are scarcely mentioned in the NT, so I draw my definitions and understanding of prophets from the teaching of the OT. I think it is a serious mistake to create a different definition for NT prophets than what we see in the OT.
Ah well... if we can't agree on the definition of a prophet, we're not likely to agree on the rest, are we!

We may not have very much information about NT prophets, but what we do have doesn't fit your definition comfortably.

Unlike you, I do see a difference between prophets in the OT and the NT - just as the priesthood of all believers is different in many ways from the OT priesthood. This was, after all, the point of Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:28,29) - since the Holy Spirit came, we're all potential prophets, and if we're still in the last days (have we somehow got beyond the last days?) then that prophecy must still apply.

Most prophets I have heard today stand up in front of the church and start making vague comments about this being the year of Jubilee or some such thing.
I do agree that most so-called modern prophecies are vague and probably not from the Holy Spirit. As I said earlier, there's an awful lot of dross and not much gold. On a few occasions, I've heard what I believe to be the genuine article - and it's quite different in both style and impact.
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
“In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.” (Hebrews 1:1–2, NIV84)

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.” (2 Peter 2:1, NIV84)

“For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.” (Acts 20:27, NIV84)

Michael,

I appreciate your kind tone in this post. However, I think the above Scriptures testify that prophecy is a gift that has passed. The clear implication is that God spoke to his people "in the past" through prophets, "but now" has spoken through His Son. The prophets were a lesser form of communication from God. Now we have been given the full revelation and "whole will of God" through the ministry and teaching of Jesus. In fact, Peter declares that there "were" false prophets in the past but there "will be" false "teachers" among us now. 1 John also makes it clear that the enemy has begun to use a new tactic...false teaching and "antichrists." So, because God is now moving in a new way through the teaching of Jesus, so the enemy has changed from using false prophets to false teachers because God has fully spoken through his Son and continues that testimony through his Spirit that is poured out "on all flesh." Just as the priesthood passed away at the coming of the ultimate priest, so also the prophets have passed away at the coming of the Word made flesh. The idea that prophets exist today, to me, is like saying we need to reestablish the priesthood. Why? Jesus has spoken and we each possess the Spirit of God within us. We no longer need prophets or priests to bridge the gap.
This is just reformation dogma, not Biblical or accurate, with cherry picked scripture to support the oppression of the church, not its growth. The New testament scripture also tells us:
27. Now at this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch.
28. One of them named Agabus stood up and {began} to indicate by the Spirit that there would certainly be a great famine all over the world. And this took place in the {reign} of Claudius.
Acts 11:27-28
These were new testament prophets, Christians (presumably) from Jerusalem, who gave warning of a famine so that the church could prepare for it. This was after Christ's resurrection and had nothing to do with creating the cannon of scripture. How in the world would the bible warn Christians of a coming famine or other trouble? The very notion is absurd, childish and irresponsible, but this has been the way of church leadership for many centuries. Perhaps its even the reason for the hundreds of church splits leading to multiple denominations with their own unique theological quirks. It certainly was the reason for the murder of many martyrs.
We also have the Apostle Paul teach us something about the composition of the body of Christ in 1 Corinthians, an early New Testament book:
27. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
28. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, {various} kinds of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:27-28
This identifies apostles and prophets as normal in the 1st century church and it was a few hundred years before the organized and now institutionalized church met to determine what writings were valid as scripture and declared the cannon complete (free of the burden of God telling them to do so.) This same book by Paul tells us in chapter 13:
9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Corinthians 13:9-12
Here Paul, speaking to the point of the excellence of love and its power, declares that the partial will be done away with when the perfect has come, but that which he refers to is not the bible (you don't look at the bible "face to face"). The bible didn't even exist at the time that Paul wrote this text. Paul anticipated the return of Christ and the coming of His kingdom. There will be no need for prophecy in the kingdom, because God will rule and walk among us and He really doesn't need us to tell Him what's going to happen.
Its even funny that you would choose Acts 20:27, as this predates much of the NT scripture including the greatest prophetic work of all time, the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
You can beat the body of Christ. You can suppress God's truth through poor theology. But you can't prevent His return, so its foolish to even try (I don't mean you personally, wormwood, I'm addressing those who have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness beginning at the cross and to this day, from within the visible church.)
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
Just to respond a little to the comments about the NT prophets...

Yes, there were NT prophets. However, these people testified about Jesus to those who had not heard and had no Scriptures to inform them. They learned via direct revelation. God used prophets in the NT to declare the message of Christ and to help teach the churches about Jesus in the absence of the Apostles.
This was a use of prophets, but not the use of prophets. They were purged from the church through the very same false doctrine you espouse, large wooden stakes, and fires hot enough to burn a person to death. They were purged because they challenged the authority of carnal minded church leaders, even as they do today. The prophets in the Old Testament and in the New existed for the purpose of warning the leaders of the congregation when they were going astray or putting the church at risk. The scripture warns us very plainly not to rebuke an elder or a pastor, but elders and pastors also need to be rebuked if sinning against Christ or His people, and this has always been a job of the prophet. Will the bible inform me if my pastor is having an illicit affair? Will the bible inform me if a deacon is stealing from the collections?
The violence done to the biblical text to exclude prophecy in our churches was the work of violent men seeking to retain power over the congregation for their own satisfaction, not Christ's.
 

michaelvpardo

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Angelina said:
Greetings Michael, although your idea of exploring how the gift of a prophet fits within the body of Christ, such threads need to be kept within the context of opinions and under the guidelines of forum rules. CyB is a discussion forum, not a church. I am aware of a few prophets who are indeed involved as part of the ministry within the church but they have been long time members who have proven their gifts over a long period of time as part the presbytery/leadership team.

ChristianityBoard however, cannot vouch for the credibility of those to wish to teach an area of ministry simply because the CyB team does not know them personally nor do they have a long standing relationship with them to verify their credibility and this board is already a ministry.

If you wish to start a discussion on this subject, please do but keep in mind that Christianity Board is already an on-line Christian ministry site which is open to all believers, even those who do not believe that such ministerial gifts are for today.

Thank you and be blessed!
Thank you, and I'm very aware of the stance of some fine and respectable members of the local "community" that have opposing views. I'll endeavor to remain civil at all times with these brothers, but I won't hide their sin either. My intent is to cover and teach what the bible calls prophecy, how it was used righteously and unrighteously, and how it pertains to the function of church leadership (which I consider largely blind because of the absence of prophecy). If wisdom were enough we would all be wise. If prudence were enough we would all be cautious. If the bible were enough there would only be one denomination and we'd all be born again. This not being the case, God's repairmen are required. I don't have in mind making myself an authority, but would use scripture as authority. I don't have in mind doing all the teaching, as the opposition teaches by the poverty of their position, and there are more than one of our modern prophets participating in these forums already, some for very long periods of time, though they wouldn't identify themselves as such.
I can't think of a single more valuable thing to the church in this age than the prophetic ministry, which by the way, will culminate and end with the beheading of the last two prophets, and Christ's return.
 

michaelvpardo

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lforrest said:
There is value in studying what a Prophet is. Even if the office of prophet no longer exists for the purpose of Revelations about God. I have seen first hand prophecies on a more personal level.

Some takeaways from these verses. GEN 20:2-7
1. Abimelech was not considered a prophet yet God spoke to him in a prophetic dream.
2. Abraham was considered a prophet.
3. God told Abimelech he was going to die, Yet was given a way out.
4. Abimelech obeyed God and the disaster looming over his family was averted.
5. God didn't wait for Abimelech to take Sarah as a wife, he pre-empted the sin.
6. Abraham's prayer was necessary to avert the disaster.
7. This prophetic dream was a dialog, very plain and direct not using symbolism or needing interpretation.
8. The prophecy was facilitated by what I assume is a disease that caused sterility, and would eventually result in death.
Thank you for your participation, this is great stuff.
 

michaelvpardo

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7angels said:
michael you do what you feel God has laid on your heart. i think this will help people realize what a prophet is.


some people think prophets are old testament only as wormwood has so graciously pointed out. but what is a prophet? person that foretells the future? he that prophesies speaks to men for edification, exhortation, and comfort." [1Cor:14:3]. how do you tell if a prophet is false or not? were there prophets in the new testament church? i like how everyone changes the meaning of scripture so you can get it to say what you want it to say. none of your scriptures says prophesy has gone away. it says prophesy has changed but that does not mean gone away. let us not assume please. let me see concrete wording that what you say is true. i can provide concrete proof it is for today. it actually says prophesy is for today. And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:.... And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" [Acts:2:17-18]. please search scripture before making false claims.

btw does not scripture teach that we are both priests and kings? are we not allowed to walk into the holy place of God now? is not Jesus the high priest?

God bless
Thank you and Amen. I believe that Christ has placed us here and in this time to help keep the church from falling away, but those who disbelieve in prophecy also tend to think that the church is in great shape and doesn't need vision.
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
Just to respond a little to the comments about the NT prophets...

Jesus is the fulfillment of the prophets and their message. Jesus is the last, full and complete Word from God. The NT prophets testified about Jesus. Today, we have the testimony of Jesus and we need no further revelations because Jesus is the ultimate revelation from God. I agree that prophets do not simply tell the future. However, prophets heard direct words from God and relayed those words to the people. They didn't preach their gut instincts or feelings as many so-called prophets do today. In fact, God condemned so-called prophets who did such things...
Well thanks once again for your input, but your statement invalidates the entire New Testament except the words in red. Good try though.
 

michaelvpardo

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Angelina said:
Well I am open to conversations regarding this topic. I understand that there was and still is a position of prophet in the church. My understanding about O/T prophets were that they spoke on God's behalf relating either to the church of that day, world events or to the coming Messiah. Back in those days, there was no complete bible so the early church relied a lot on their prophets. There is a distinct difference between a prophet and the gift of prophecy. Some believe that all prophecy has been fulfilled but we can see there is more to come...ie: the return of the king!
Thank you so much. Part of the reason for the current state of affairs in the church is the disbelief in Christ's return, as much as disbelief in what the scripture actually says.
 

michaelvpardo

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ezekiel said:
Michael allow God to lead you thru the bible, you may think it is you but God will lead. God is the only Shepard, no man can sub. for this. Keep your eyes on what He says.
He actually has been for approximately 20 years. I read scripture as a child, as a youth, and as a young man, but while some things were plain and obvious, much was incomprehensible to me until I received my Lord by faith, placing my trust in Him to deliver me from the consequences of my sin and in the power of His blood for my redemption. Since then I've read through the book in its entirety a few dozen times, but prefer to focus on those things which are most urgent in our time. I think that you would be hard pressed to find legitimate church leaders who don't want the body of Christ to reach maturation, but they expect it to do so while crippled by dogma. This just won't happen, so God created some of us for this purpose, to proclaim the truth of His word regardless of the personal cost, rejection, persecution, sometimes even death. There are rules, however, that the legitimate prophet must follow (we're all human, fallible, and subject to the kind of error which is derived from self will and self preservation) hence the necessity of a "school of the prophets."
 

Angelina

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Michael V Pardo said:
My intent is to cover and teach what the bible calls prophecy, how it was used righteously and unrighteously, and how it pertains to the function of church leadership (which I consider largely blind because of the absence of prophecy). If wisdom were enough we would all be wise. If prudence were enough we would all be cautious. If the bible were enough there would only be one denomination and we'd all be born again. This not being the case, God's repairmen are required. I don't have in mind making myself an authority, but would use scripture as authority. I don't have in mind doing all the teaching, as the opposition teaches by the poverty of their position
You have already made your position clear with the above comments. I will be monitoring this thread... :huh:
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
Deborah,
In any event, I still maintain that Jesus is the full revelation of God. We have that message inspired and preserved in the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit. Since prophecy isn't about fortune telling the future, but about forth telling the plans and purposes of God....what new revealed plan or purpose is God working in the world that he hasn't already completed in Christ? Again, the Spirit uses teachers today to expound on the fullness of the revelation we already have.

Show me the gift of bona-fide miracles (gift...not some one time occurrence that happened a decade ago as a church-wide answer to prayer) in your local church and Ill take seriously the claim that there is new revelation being audibly spoken to a prophet there as well.
A perverse and wicked generation seeks a sign. I've heard many anecdotal stories of modern miracles within the church coming from reputable ministries on the radio. Its a shame that no one had the presence of mind to take a picture of a christian coming back to life when believed dead. Or took a picture of angelic protection in the midst of murderous threats. Its a shame that no one drew a decent picture of Christ, how can we be sure of his existence?
I stopped the mouth of an unbeliever challenging my testimony with a command, but it wasn't me that stopped this blasphemers mouth. There was a room full of witnesses, yet stupid me, I should have pulled out a camera before the Holy Spirit acted through me and then shot a video.
 

michaelvpardo

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Angelina said:
You have already made your position clear with the above comments. I will be monitoring this thread... :huh:
Great, but I'd prefer it if you'd be an active participant as you actually believe what the scripture says and don't appear to need to interpret it to say something else. :)
 

michaelvpardo

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mjrhealth said:
Yes you are so right

Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

and because of the holy spirit

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If one has teh Holy Spirit one has the Teacher that God sent to all who are His, and He is all they need.
If this were true no Christian would ever fall into sin. We have a new nature in Christ, but it wars against our old nature which remains with us until we die or are transformed in an instant at Christ's return. If this were true there would be no need for congregations to gather together for worship and to hear exhortation. The Holy Spirit gives us gifts according to God's election, and places us in the body to serve each other, not ourselves. We clearly do not all receive the same gifts or all the gifts, some are for signs to unbelievers, some are for the growth of the body, some are for holiness, some are for healing. A man in a pulpit with a book can't do it all, but that is what the church has become (for the largest part of it,) and so we have frustrated Pastors who fall away in despair or disillusionment, and frustrated members of the congregation whom God has placed to give warning to the leadership, that are regarded as kooks and malcontents.
 

Angelina

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Michael V Pardo said:
Great, but I'd prefer it if you'd be an active participant as you actually believe what the scripture says and don't appear to need to interpret it to say something else. :)
I was actually looking forward to some good discussions with this topic but it seems you've set the tone which should and may just end up as a thread in the debate section....
 

Wormwood

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Michael,

I simply stated why I didn't believe prophets exist and what their function was in the early church. I used Scripture to support my position and I believe I shared my views in a kind manner. It does seem evident, does it not, that gifts do not function the same way today? Are you going to tell me you see the dead raised, the blind given sight and shadows heal the lame? Why does no one seem to have a problem with the idea that the gift of miracles does not function as it once did, but if if you suggest the same is true with prophecy...you are attacked. You essentially implied that my type are responsible for burning such prophets at the stake and suggested I am wicked and perverse because I think a person needs to do more than simply self-proclaim themselves as a prophet to establish themselves as an authority and mouthpiece of God in my life. Are you telling me you actually see visions and hear the audible voice of God speak to you and tell you to share a message with others?

Personally, I don't sense any Spirit of God in the way you speak to people. Ive seen you discuss end-times with others on this site and its usually a very uncharitable exchange. It looks like you are trying to steer this discussion in the same direction.
 

Wormwood

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Deborah_ said:
Ah well... if we can't agree on the definition of a prophet, we're not likely to agree on the rest, are we!

We may not have very much information about NT prophets, but what we do have doesn't fit your definition comfortably.

Unlike you, I do see a difference between prophets in the OT and the NT - just as the priesthood of all believers is different in many ways from the OT priesthood. This was, after all, the point of Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:28,29) - since the Holy Spirit came, we're all potential prophets, and if we're still in the last days (have we somehow got beyond the last days?) then that prophecy must still apply.

I do agree that most so-called modern prophecies are vague and probably not from the Holy Spirit. As I said earlier, there's an awful lot of dross and not much gold. On a few occasions, I've heard what I believe to be the genuine article - and it's quite different in both style and impact.
Thanks for your reply, Deborah. Im curious, what is your definition of a NT prophet and on what basis do you establish it?
 

Deborah_

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Wormwood said:
Thanks for your reply, Deborah. Im curious, what is your definition of a NT prophet and on what basis do you establish it?
The NT definition is in I Corinthians 14:3 - "The one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort."
I am going by what the NT has to say about prophecy - especially Paul's instructions to the church in Corinth. (In Ephesians 2:20, he's referring to OT prophets)
 

Wormwood

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Thank you Deborah. I guess my question is, "How does that differ from a teacher, evangelist, or even just a kind person in general?" If I go to comfort a person in the hospital, does that make me a prophet because I am speaking words of comfort? I am not trying to come across as critical, I am just really trying to understand your thinking on the matter so I can ponder it more deeply myself. Thank you
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
Michael,

I simply stated why I didn't believe prophets exist and what their function was in the early church. I used Scripture to support my position and I believe I shared my views in a kind manner.

Personally, I don't sense any Spirit of God in the way you speak to people. Ive seen you discuss end-times with others on this site and its usually a very uncharitable exchange. It looks like you are trying to steer this discussion in the same direction.
Personally, I don't sense any mind of God in you in the way you write posts. I've seen you discuss prophecy with others on this site and its ususlly a very uncharitable attack on biblical belief. It looks like you are trying to steer this discussion in the same direction.
With regard to my quote of our Lord's statement about seeking signs; He said it first and if the shoe fits...
 

Born_Again

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Okay, lets all back up. Before this goes any further, lets not start any personal attacks on character. If that is the way this is going to go, then we might as well close this thread now.