That is the way I have always seen it too .... and there is no way around itguysmith said:
The church has either been removed or all believers are martyred
Whatever the case , they cannot be on earth
The Seal of the Holy Spirit and the Seal of God.
- Thread starter Angelina
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The church has either been removed or all believers are martyred
Whatever the case , they cannot be on earth
Hey guys,
...note the verse below
Rev 9
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Assumes that there are those without the mark...
I totally agree in part but do not think that there would be other believer's on earth being afflicted assuming that the 144K were the last one's to be sealed with God's mark. It would be improbable that Christians during the tribulation [if there are any left by this time on earth] will be afflicted UNLESS their entrance into the kingdom will be through martyrdom...which is quite possible! :unsure:guysmith said:
...note the verse below
Rev 9
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Assumes that there are those without the mark...
Luke 21: 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.Angelina said:
And in the end, who is found "standing" with Christ?
Revelation 14:1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Angelina, what you, me and Arnie are breaching upon is the whole premise of Bible Prophecy. Do you want to continue?
In Yehoshua,
Guy
Well just my two bits worth...
I suspect the 144,000 is symbolic for the full complement of the descendents of Jacob; it includes the descendents of the Lost Ten Tribes of which God says He will remarry in Hosea and the House of Judah. In other words it is the House of Ephraim and the House of Judah of which God says He will combine into one stick in Eze 37. The 144,000 standing on Mount Zion with Yeshua are those who return with Yeshua from Bozrah as described in Micah…
Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together (in Bozrah) like sheep of the fold, Like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many people. The one who breaks open will come up before them; They will break out, Pass through the gate, And go out by it; Their king will pass before them, With the LORD at their head."
The wrath of the LORD begins in Edom when He destroys those persecuting His chosen and moves to Jerusalem and the finial battle of the age.
Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter. Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction. The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom. Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall drink its fill of blood, and their soil shall be gorged with fat. For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.
(Isa 34:1-10 ESV)
I suspect the 144,000 is symbolic for the full complement of the descendents of Jacob; it includes the descendents of the Lost Ten Tribes of which God says He will remarry in Hosea and the House of Judah. In other words it is the House of Ephraim and the House of Judah of which God says He will combine into one stick in Eze 37. The 144,000 standing on Mount Zion with Yeshua are those who return with Yeshua from Bozrah as described in Micah…
Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together (in Bozrah) like sheep of the fold, Like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many people. The one who breaks open will come up before them; They will break out, Pass through the gate, And go out by it; Their king will pass before them, With the LORD at their head."
The wrath of the LORD begins in Edom when He destroys those persecuting His chosen and moves to Jerusalem and the finial battle of the age.
Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it. For the LORD is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter. Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction. The LORD has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom. Wild oxen shall fall with them, and young steers with the mighty bulls. Their land shall drink its fill of blood, and their soil shall be gorged with fat. For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.
(Isa 34:1-10 ESV)
Thanks for this in-depth discussion guys. It is refreshing to be able to discuss end-time events without the usual aggressive one eyed doctrinal beliefs set in stone.
It is evident based on Rev7:1-9 that "all the nations of the earth" do not lose their TITLE right up to the time they enter heaven. This indicates that the nation of Israel is indeed the 144,000 mentioned in Rev7:4. It also refutes the idea of replacement theology.
These scriptures also do not advocate "rapture". As a matter of fact you will find that those nations tribes, peoples, and tongues spoken of in Rev 7:9, 14, 16 were martyred as were all believers in heaven at this significant period of time.
please note: Revelation 6
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the [1]number of their fellow servants and [2]their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
If rapture of the Church occurred prior to the great tribulation, you would think they would be mentioned being in heaven at this pivotal point in time [Rev 7]....but they are not there :huh:
Shalom!
It is evident based on Rev7:1-9 that "all the nations of the earth" do not lose their TITLE right up to the time they enter heaven. This indicates that the nation of Israel is indeed the 144,000 mentioned in Rev7:4. It also refutes the idea of replacement theology.
These scriptures also do not advocate "rapture". As a matter of fact you will find that those nations tribes, peoples, and tongues spoken of in Rev 7:9, 14, 16 were martyred as were all believers in heaven at this significant period of time.
please note: Revelation 6
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the [1]number of their fellow servants and [2]their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
If rapture of the Church occurred prior to the great tribulation, you would think they would be mentioned being in heaven at this pivotal point in time [Rev 7]....but they are not there :huh:
Shalom!
Three days before Jesus was put to death, after having scathingly condemned the Pharisees, Jesus said concerning the nation of fleshly Israel: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But you people did not want it. Look! Your house (the temple in Jerusalem) is abandoned ("abandoned", Greek eremos, meaning "solitary, lonely, desolate, uninhabited, deserted by others, deprived of the aid and protection of others, esp. of friends, acquaintances, kindred; bereft", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 249) to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matt 23:37-39, with Jesus quoting from Ps 118:26)
Thus, the nation of fleshly Israel, with their temple in Jerusalem, was "abandoned" by God. Why ? Because they as a nation was "the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her", with the central governing body of religious leaders in Jerusalem having Jesus killed at the hands of the Romans.(1 Thess 2:14, 15)
As a nation, fleshly Israel is no longer God's people, having been replaced by another "nation". On the same day as when Jesus raked the Jewish religious leaders "over the coals", he also said to them: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Isa 28:16), ' The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes ? Thus is why I say to you (the Jewish religious who represented the nation of fleshly Israel), the kingdom of God will be taken from you (given the opportunity to be "the kingdom of God" to fleshly Israel on Mt Sinai in 1513 B.C.E., Ex 19:5, 6) and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:42, 43)
Hence, at Revelation 7, the 144,000 "sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" are not the nation of fleshly Israel, but rather those selected by God who are "producing its (God's kingdom) fruits". What are the "fruits" that this new "nation" would produce ? Galatians 5 provides the nine "fruitage of the (God's) spirit", as "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control."(Gal 5:22, 23)
Rather than having showed these necessary spiritual qualities, the nation of fleshly Israel have continued to display a murderous spirit, despite Jesus having "fertilized" the nation with "the good news of the Kingdom of God" (Luke 8:1) for some 3 1/2 years, from 29 to 33 C.E.(Luke 13:6-9)
That is also why the apostle Paul wrote to the Romans: "For not all who descend from Israel are really "Israel". Neither are they all God's children because they are Abraham's offspring....That is, the children in the flesh (fleshly Israel) are not really the children of God."(Rom 9:6-8)
Since the "children in the flesh", or fleshly Israel, are not "the children of God", then who is ? Paul says that "all those who walk orderly (displaying the "fruitage of the spirit") by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God."(Gal 6:16) The "kingdom of God" has now shifted from fleshly Israel to spiritual Israel, the "nation producing its fruits (of God's kingdom)".
These are the ones who have followed in Jesus "footsteps", so that "when he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One (Jehovah God) who judges righteously."(1 Pet 2:21, 23) These are the ones who have ' beaten their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears...nor will they learn war anymore.' (Isa 2:4)
Thus, the nation of fleshly Israel, with their temple in Jerusalem, was "abandoned" by God. Why ? Because they as a nation was "the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her", with the central governing body of religious leaders in Jerusalem having Jesus killed at the hands of the Romans.(1 Thess 2:14, 15)
As a nation, fleshly Israel is no longer God's people, having been replaced by another "nation". On the same day as when Jesus raked the Jewish religious leaders "over the coals", he also said to them: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Isa 28:16), ' The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone. This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes ? Thus is why I say to you (the Jewish religious who represented the nation of fleshly Israel), the kingdom of God will be taken from you (given the opportunity to be "the kingdom of God" to fleshly Israel on Mt Sinai in 1513 B.C.E., Ex 19:5, 6) and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:42, 43)
Hence, at Revelation 7, the 144,000 "sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel" are not the nation of fleshly Israel, but rather those selected by God who are "producing its (God's kingdom) fruits". What are the "fruits" that this new "nation" would produce ? Galatians 5 provides the nine "fruitage of the (God's) spirit", as "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control."(Gal 5:22, 23)
Rather than having showed these necessary spiritual qualities, the nation of fleshly Israel have continued to display a murderous spirit, despite Jesus having "fertilized" the nation with "the good news of the Kingdom of God" (Luke 8:1) for some 3 1/2 years, from 29 to 33 C.E.(Luke 13:6-9)
That is also why the apostle Paul wrote to the Romans: "For not all who descend from Israel are really "Israel". Neither are they all God's children because they are Abraham's offspring....That is, the children in the flesh (fleshly Israel) are not really the children of God."(Rom 9:6-8)
Since the "children in the flesh", or fleshly Israel, are not "the children of God", then who is ? Paul says that "all those who walk orderly (displaying the "fruitage of the spirit") by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God."(Gal 6:16) The "kingdom of God" has now shifted from fleshly Israel to spiritual Israel, the "nation producing its fruits (of God's kingdom)".
These are the ones who have followed in Jesus "footsteps", so that "when he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One (Jehovah God) who judges righteously."(1 Pet 2:21, 23) These are the ones who have ' beaten their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears...nor will they learn war anymore.' (Isa 2:4)
So Guestman are you telling me that Yahweh has rescinded His eternal promise to the Nation of Israel? Here is just a few of the promises of Yahweh and understand that they are unilateral promises, not depended upon the actions of Israel.
"(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31).
"For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).
According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him:
"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36; NASB).
Yes those non-believers that walked during the ministry of Yeshua were punished with death and abandonment for their transgressions just as the judgments against the Ten Tribes and Judah 700 years before but God promised to forgive them and bring them all back into a covenant relationship in the latter days…
And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying, And you, son of man, take one stick to yourself and write on it, For Judah, and for his companions, the sons of Israel. And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions. And draw them one to one for yourself, into one stick. And they shall become one in your hand. And when the sons of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not declare to us what these mean to you? Say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions. And I will put them with him, with the stick of Judah, and I will make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. And the sticks shall be in your hand, the ones on which you write before their eyes. And say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and will bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two nations still. And they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.
(Eze 37:15-22 LITV)
You need to read and understand more of the Old Testament because all of the ministry of Yeshua is based upon it.
"(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
He will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He sware unto them" (Deut. 4:31)."For the LORD will not forsake His people for His great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you His people" (1 Sam.12:22).
According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him:
"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36; NASB).
Yes those non-believers that walked during the ministry of Yeshua were punished with death and abandonment for their transgressions just as the judgments against the Ten Tribes and Judah 700 years before but God promised to forgive them and bring them all back into a covenant relationship in the latter days…
And the Word of Jehovah was to me, saying, And you, son of man, take one stick to yourself and write on it, For Judah, and for his companions, the sons of Israel. And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions. And draw them one to one for yourself, into one stick. And they shall become one in your hand. And when the sons of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not declare to us what these mean to you? Say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions. And I will put them with him, with the stick of Judah, and I will make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. And the sticks shall be in your hand, the ones on which you write before their eyes. And say to them, So says the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and will bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two nations still. And they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.
(Eze 37:15-22 LITV)
You need to read and understand more of the Old Testament because all of the ministry of Yeshua is based upon it.
Tell me what group are you referring to who have been selected by God to produce fruits during the GT since all the nations of the earth are in heaven by this time? :huh:
Romans 11
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
It is obvious that the 144,000 is indeed the nation of Israel although it is not the Israel that is veiled but the Israel that has had the veil removed by turning to Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:13, 14, 15.
Saint,
When the apostle Paul wrote to the Romans, he discussed the nation of Israel at length, using the word "Israel" eleven times.(Rom 9:6, 27, 31: 10:19, 21; 11:2, 7, 25, 26) He, being a Jew or Israelite, would certainly have feelings for his people. And at Romans 9, he says "that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers (fleshly Israel), my relatives according to the flesh, who are Israelites."
Paul now changes, saying: "However (Greek ouch, meaning "the absolute negative" or going in the opposite direction), it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really "Israel".(Rom 9:6) What was Paul expressing ? That the Israelites as a nation were no longer God's people, but there now being a new "Israel", one that is the new "nation" that Jesus established when condemning the Jewish religious leaders at Matthew 21:42, 43 and would take their place.
Paul further continues with this reasoning, saying: "Neither are they (fleshly Israel) all God's children because they are Abraham's offspring."(Rom 9:7) John the Baptist encountered Jewish religious leaders who were strongly entrenched in their belief that the Israelites were still God's people. John, noting their arrogance, told them: "You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath ? Therefore, produce fruits that befit repentance."(Matt 3:7, 8)
If the nation of fleshly Israel were God's people, then why did John call the leading men of the nation "offspring of vipers" and then let them know that God's wrath was coming against the nation ? Why did John now say: "Do not presume to say to yourselves, ' We have Abraham as our father.' if they were still favored as God's people ? He then says: "The ax is already lying at the root of the trees (the nation of fleshly Israel). Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.(Matt 3:9, 10)
Why did John have to point out to the Jewish religious leaders that the "tree" of fleshly Israel was not producing "fine fruit" if indeed they were still God's chosen people ? (see Luke 13:6-9) Why did he tell them that they were "to be cut down and thrown into the fire" if they still qualified as God's chosen ones ?
John said this a few months before Jesus started his ministry and Jesus completed this condemnation just days before his death, saying of the Jewish religious leaders: "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Gehenna (everlasting destruction) ?"(Matt 23:33)
Fleshly Israel never changed throughout Jesus ministry, even to the point of plotting to murder Jesus.(Matt 12:14) That is why he told them just three days before he was put to death: "This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you (see Matt 13:12 with regard to "taken from") and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:43)
So what can be properly concluded ? That fleshly Israel were rejected by Jehovah God and replaced with another "nation", a "nation" that would "produce fruits that befit repentance", that would display the qualities that imitate our Maker, Jehovah.
This new "nation" has followed in Jesus "footsteps"(1 Pet 2:21) and have "put on the new personality which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the One (Jehovah) who created it."(Col 3:10) It is called "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) as the new "nation" that displays God's qualities.(Gal 5:22, 23) This would be a combination of Jews and Gentiles as the new "nation".(Rom 11:25, 26)
When the apostle Paul wrote to the Romans, he discussed the nation of Israel at length, using the word "Israel" eleven times.(Rom 9:6, 27, 31: 10:19, 21; 11:2, 7, 25, 26) He, being a Jew or Israelite, would certainly have feelings for his people. And at Romans 9, he says "that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers (fleshly Israel), my relatives according to the flesh, who are Israelites."
Paul now changes, saying: "However (Greek ouch, meaning "the absolute negative" or going in the opposite direction), it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really "Israel".(Rom 9:6) What was Paul expressing ? That the Israelites as a nation were no longer God's people, but there now being a new "Israel", one that is the new "nation" that Jesus established when condemning the Jewish religious leaders at Matthew 21:42, 43 and would take their place.
Paul further continues with this reasoning, saying: "Neither are they (fleshly Israel) all God's children because they are Abraham's offspring."(Rom 9:7) John the Baptist encountered Jewish religious leaders who were strongly entrenched in their belief that the Israelites were still God's people. John, noting their arrogance, told them: "You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath ? Therefore, produce fruits that befit repentance."(Matt 3:7, 8)
If the nation of fleshly Israel were God's people, then why did John call the leading men of the nation "offspring of vipers" and then let them know that God's wrath was coming against the nation ? Why did John now say: "Do not presume to say to yourselves, ' We have Abraham as our father.' if they were still favored as God's people ? He then says: "The ax is already lying at the root of the trees (the nation of fleshly Israel). Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.(Matt 3:9, 10)
Why did John have to point out to the Jewish religious leaders that the "tree" of fleshly Israel was not producing "fine fruit" if indeed they were still God's chosen people ? (see Luke 13:6-9) Why did he tell them that they were "to be cut down and thrown into the fire" if they still qualified as God's chosen ones ?
John said this a few months before Jesus started his ministry and Jesus completed this condemnation just days before his death, saying of the Jewish religious leaders: "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Gehenna (everlasting destruction) ?"(Matt 23:33)
Fleshly Israel never changed throughout Jesus ministry, even to the point of plotting to murder Jesus.(Matt 12:14) That is why he told them just three days before he was put to death: "This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you (see Matt 13:12 with regard to "taken from") and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:43)
So what can be properly concluded ? That fleshly Israel were rejected by Jehovah God and replaced with another "nation", a "nation" that would "produce fruits that befit repentance", that would display the qualities that imitate our Maker, Jehovah.
This new "nation" has followed in Jesus "footsteps"(1 Pet 2:21) and have "put on the new personality which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the One (Jehovah) who created it."(Col 3:10) It is called "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) as the new "nation" that displays God's qualities.(Gal 5:22, 23) This would be a combination of Jews and Gentiles as the new "nation".(Rom 11:25, 26)
The term Gentile is a word that has blinded the church in this age. The true Hebrew understating of the word Gentile is one who does not follow the teaching of the Torah or one who does not have a covenant relationship with God. This can be seen in Numbers 15:13-16:
Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"
But here is something important you MUST know, if you are to understand the Bible. The word GENTILE is not used in any of the ancient manuscripts, simply because there was no such word in the Hebrew or Greek languages. The word GENTILE as used in our modern Bible versions, including the "much loved" King James Version, in the Old Testament, always comes from the Hebrew word "goy," (singular) and "goyim", (plural). It is translated five different ways in the Old Testament, according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible; "goy or goyim (singular or plural)", a foreign NATION hence GENTILE; (2) HEATHEN; (3) NATION, and (4) PEOPLE, or ANOTHER."
Notice that the Hebrew word "goy, or goyim," is NEVER translated to mean "non-Jew."
The word "goy" is found in the Old Testament some 557 times. Thirty times it has been translated GENTILE; eleven times as people; 142 times as heathen; 373 times as NATION, and one time as ANOTHR. But not once as "non-Jew."
Now who is in view when the term gentile is used in scripture? When the Ten Tribes were dispersed into the world God said they would forget who they were, where they came from and how to return. They would live among the nations and serve false gods. To the Tribe of Judah the Ten Tribes became Gentiles because they had fallen out of a covenant relationship with God and no longer followed the Torah.
God tells us in Genesis48:19 that the Tribe of Ephraim would become the fullness of the nation…
And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations (Gentiles) "Melo ha"goyim";'
(Gen 48:19 YLT)
God then tells us in Hos 1:10 what the Tribe of Ephraim would become in the future and how He would restore them into a covenant relationship with Himself.
And the number of the sons of Israel hath been as the sand of the sea, that is not measured nor numbered, and it hath come to pass in the place where it is said to them, Ye are not My people, it is said to them, Sons of the Living God; and gathered have been the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel together, and they have appointed to themselves one head, and have gone up from the land, for great is the day of Jezreel.
(Hos 1:10-11 YLT)
This fullness of the gentiles is what is biblically referred to in Romans and Luke…
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
(Rom 11:25-26 ESV)
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Luk 21:24 ESV)
The one statement of Yeshua that everyone overlooks is very simple…
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
(Mat 15:24 ESV)
If you will do your research you will find that the Disciples spent the balance of their time searching out and carrying the gospel primarily to these Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Don’t let the true meaning of the term Gentiles mislead you in your studies.
I am not saying that following the Torah leads to salvation but it does define the biblical understanding of the term Gentile.
Numbers 15: 13 "'Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.'"
But here is something important you MUST know, if you are to understand the Bible. The word GENTILE is not used in any of the ancient manuscripts, simply because there was no such word in the Hebrew or Greek languages. The word GENTILE as used in our modern Bible versions, including the "much loved" King James Version, in the Old Testament, always comes from the Hebrew word "goy," (singular) and "goyim", (plural). It is translated five different ways in the Old Testament, according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible; "goy or goyim (singular or plural)", a foreign NATION hence GENTILE; (2) HEATHEN; (3) NATION, and (4) PEOPLE, or ANOTHER."
Notice that the Hebrew word "goy, or goyim," is NEVER translated to mean "non-Jew."
The word "goy" is found in the Old Testament some 557 times. Thirty times it has been translated GENTILE; eleven times as people; 142 times as heathen; 373 times as NATION, and one time as ANOTHR. But not once as "non-Jew."
Now who is in view when the term gentile is used in scripture? When the Ten Tribes were dispersed into the world God said they would forget who they were, where they came from and how to return. They would live among the nations and serve false gods. To the Tribe of Judah the Ten Tribes became Gentiles because they had fallen out of a covenant relationship with God and no longer followed the Torah.
God tells us in Genesis48:19 that the Tribe of Ephraim would become the fullness of the nation…
And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations (Gentiles) "Melo ha"goyim";'
(Gen 48:19 YLT)
God then tells us in Hos 1:10 what the Tribe of Ephraim would become in the future and how He would restore them into a covenant relationship with Himself.
And the number of the sons of Israel hath been as the sand of the sea, that is not measured nor numbered, and it hath come to pass in the place where it is said to them, Ye are not My people, it is said to them, Sons of the Living God; and gathered have been the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel together, and they have appointed to themselves one head, and have gone up from the land, for great is the day of Jezreel.
(Hos 1:10-11 YLT)
This fullness of the gentiles is what is biblically referred to in Romans and Luke…
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
(Rom 11:25-26 ESV)
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Luk 21:24 ESV)
The one statement of Yeshua that everyone overlooks is very simple…
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
(Mat 15:24 ESV)
If you will do your research you will find that the Disciples spent the balance of their time searching out and carrying the gospel primarily to these Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Don’t let the true meaning of the term Gentiles mislead you in your studies.
I am not saying that following the Torah leads to salvation but it does define the biblical understanding of the term Gentile.
The selecting of the 144,000 (a literal number at Rev 7:4 [ called by Jesus a "little flock" at Luke 12:32] contrasted with "a great crowd" of unnumbered ones that come out of the "great tribulation" at Rev 7:9, 14) began on Pentecost 33 C.E. with the outpouring of holy spirit on the initial group of 120 Jews.(Acts 2:4)Angelina said:
Then, this selecting by Jehovah God of 144,000 was extended to Gentiles or "people of the nations" 3 1/2 years later in 36 C.E., starting with Cornelius and his family.(Acts 10:45; Dan 9:27a) These were chosen to serve in the official capacity of "kings and priests" (Rev 1:6) and are called "holy ones".(Eph 1:1; Dan 7:18)
Jesus pointed out that fleshly Israel "failed the grade", telling a Gentile Roman army officer who expressed unquestioning faith in Jesus: "I tell you the truth, with no one in Israel have I found so great a faith. But (now changing direction) I tell you that many from east and west (from all around the earth, Gentiles) will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the Kingdom (fleshly Israel) will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and gnashing of their teeth will be."(Matt 8:10-12)
Thus, Jesus said that fleshly Israel, as initially being selected as "sons of the Kingdom" at Mt Sinai (Ex 19:5, 6), would as a nation exercise no faith in him as the promised Messiah, but reject him (Ps 118:22; 1 Pet 2:4), so that as a nation they would "be thrown into the darkness outside". These then showed their true colors by "gnashing...their teeth" against Jesus and his genuine disciples, persecuting and killing some.
Paul says that fleshly Israel "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and persecuted us. Furthermore, they (fleshly Israel) are not pleasing God, but are against the interests of men, as they try to prevent us (genuine Christians) from speaking to people of the nations so that these might be saved. In this way they (fleshly Israel) always fill up the measure of their sins. But his (God's) wrath has at last come upon them (which it did some 20 years later in 70 C.E.)."(1 Thess 2:15, 16)
Jews who exercised faith in Jesus, along with Gentiles, were brought together as one "nation", spiritual "Israel".(Gal 6:16) Paul told the Ephesians "that at one time you, people of the nations by fleshly descent....but now in union with Christ Jesus.....(who) destroyed the wall (the Mosaic Law covenant, Gal 3:13; becoming obsolete, Heb 8:13) in between that fenced them (Gentiles) off."(Eph 2:11, 13, 14)
So, Jews along with Gentiles who are selected by Jehovah God (2 Thess 2:13) as "kings and priests" (Rev 5:9, 10), fill the "sealed" number of 144,000 (Rev 7:4), now becoming "joint-heirs with Christ"(Rom 8:17) who must prove themselves loyal to the end of their life (Rev 2:10) Any who fail to measure up to Jehovah's righteous standards, "who have fallen away" (Heb 6:4-6) are replaced by someone else who is loyal.
At the time of the "great tribulation" in the near future (Matt 24:21), all the political nations on earth (called "the ten horns" at Rev 17:12 as well as "the wild beast" at Rev 13:1, 2), along with the "scarlet-colored wild beast" (United Nations, Rev 17:3) will "battle with the Lamb" (Rev 17:14), and be annihilated.(Rev 19:19-21)
You seem to forget that just as God forgave us our sins when we accepted Jesus as our Lord and savior, he has also done the same for his "elect" for the sake of the fathers. [Abraham, Isaac and Jacob]
Romans 11
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
I see that you have taken bits from Daniel and other parts of the bible and created your own understanding of last day events... :huh:
That is a dangerous practice and it needs to be tested properly. However, you may wish to do so by creating another thread as I am beginning to see that the O/P is getting off topic.
Shalom!!!
Romans 11
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
This one new man is in Christ. Which is the Church as a body and the Hebrew heritage line. They are both coming together as one new man in Christ .... The Church has already been sealed by the Holy Spirit through individual believer's...Messianic believing Jews have been sealed also...This has nothing to do with the 144,000 at the end of age as their sealing comes during a time of deep distress upon the earth, carried by an angel of God.
I see that you have taken bits from Daniel and other parts of the bible and created your own understanding of last day events... :huh:
That is a dangerous practice and it needs to be tested properly. However, you may wish to do so by creating another thread as I am beginning to see that the O/P is getting off topic.
Shalom!!!
I don't know if it is two different seals are not.
What I understand about marking on your forehead and right arm comes from Exodus 13 and how if the law is on your lips, and you keep the Sabbaths of God, then you will receive the seal of protection.
We see people in Ezekiel 8-9, receiving the seal of protection because they were mourning about the abominations being committed by the people who came up to the Temple{Sun worship, weeping for Tammuz}
Revelation gives us the 666, and where you find the 666 in Ezekiel, is where you find the Messiah of Babylon,'' Tammuz''
Ezekiel 8 and 9 show the last sacrifice of God where everyone dies who do not have the mark on their foreheads. The people mourning who are mourning over God's feasts are protected, but everyone else dies.
Ezekiel 8 begins, '' In the 5th day, in the 6th month, in the 6th year''
This begins the day but when Jerusalem is searched by lamps at the last sacrifice where everyone is killed who doesn't have the mark, The date has just changed at 6 pm, and it becomes the 6th day in the 6th month in the 6th year, where people are killed for weeping for Tammuz and keeping the winter solstice.
Being that Tammuz is the resurrected Nimrod and Messiah of Babylon, and being that Revelation is a Battle between the followers of the Messiah of Babylon and the Messiah of Jerusalem, Tammuz fits the bill, and at 6 pm, in the 6th day, in the 6th month, in the 6th year, everyone is killed who has anything to do with the Messiah of Babylon,'' Tammuz''
Just my opinions, if it helps.
What I understand about marking on your forehead and right arm comes from Exodus 13 and how if the law is on your lips, and you keep the Sabbaths of God, then you will receive the seal of protection.
We see people in Ezekiel 8-9, receiving the seal of protection because they were mourning about the abominations being committed by the people who came up to the Temple{Sun worship, weeping for Tammuz}
Revelation gives us the 666, and where you find the 666 in Ezekiel, is where you find the Messiah of Babylon,'' Tammuz''
Ezekiel 8 and 9 show the last sacrifice of God where everyone dies who do not have the mark on their foreheads. The people mourning who are mourning over God's feasts are protected, but everyone else dies.
Ezekiel 8 begins, '' In the 5th day, in the 6th month, in the 6th year''
This begins the day but when Jerusalem is searched by lamps at the last sacrifice where everyone is killed who doesn't have the mark, The date has just changed at 6 pm, and it becomes the 6th day in the 6th month in the 6th year, where people are killed for weeping for Tammuz and keeping the winter solstice.
Being that Tammuz is the resurrected Nimrod and Messiah of Babylon, and being that Revelation is a Battle between the followers of the Messiah of Babylon and the Messiah of Jerusalem, Tammuz fits the bill, and at 6 pm, in the 6th day, in the 6th month, in the 6th year, everyone is killed who has anything to do with the Messiah of Babylon,'' Tammuz''
Just my opinions, if it helps.
I am mostly in agreement with your opinions Jacob Rising. I'm not sure just which character the Messiah of Babylon is; it could be the false messiah (Isa) or it could be the Mahdi but in my mind it is one of the two. My understanding regarding the mark of the beast is the Arabic character or word "Bismillah", which means in the "name of Allah". This is the symbol worn on the forehead or armof disciples of Islam.
I touched on the sealing in Ezekiel in post 14.
I touched on the sealing in Ezekiel in post 14.
I would tell you to simply look in the mirror.Saint said:
Blessed is Egypt My people, and Blessed is Assyria the work of my hands, and Blessed is Israel, mine inheritance, the 3 shall be one in the land.
I see everything in 3's
I see Egypt in my body, Assyria in my soul. and Israel in my spirit.
It's my opinion that the man of sin is within us all, and this wretched body of flesh and the desires it has will be burn up in the day of the Lord, being revealed.
We can choose to please the flesh or to try and please God, but the desires of the flesh are always there and very strong.
I think that the evil desires of the flesh is antichrist, the man of sin.
Hi Jacob_Rising!
Love that name...Exodus 13:7, 8, 9, 10 also suggests that the sign placed on the hand and between the eyes is a memorial, that the Lord’s law may be in their mouth; for with a strong hand the Lord has brought them out of Egypt.
In entering the land flowing with milk and honey, again the Lord says;
“And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
10 “So it shall be, when the Lord your God brings you into the land of which He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give you large and beautiful cities which you did not build,...Deut 6
Perhaps that is what the meaning of the seals are for Israel, that the Lord will send his angel in the last days and seal them in the midst of the GT... :huh:
Love that name...Exodus 13:7, 8, 9, 10 also suggests that the sign placed on the hand and between the eyes is a memorial, that the Lord’s law may be in their mouth; for with a strong hand the Lord has brought them out of Egypt.
In entering the land flowing with milk and honey, again the Lord says;
“And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
10 “So it shall be, when the Lord your God brings you into the land of which He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give you large and beautiful cities which you did not build,...Deut 6
Perhaps that is what the meaning of the seals are for Israel, that the Lord will send his angel in the last days and seal them in the midst of the GT... :huh:
"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:Angelina said:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
Here-in is a Mystery; THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHO ARE OF ISRAEL!
"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
[SIZE=.75em] nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=.75em] "That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;[/SIZE]
...but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."
So the Lord clarifies that it is more than a blood-line & a birth-right to be considered a Jew by Him. It was an election all along, Also consider that 10 of the Tribes mentioned in the 144,000 choosing were dispersed in @ 720 BC...The Assyrian takeover...Some may have remained, but most vanished. There are a lot of theories about who they are & where they went, but I think it is safe to say that some of those 144,000 will appear to be gentile, but counted by God as a Jew.
And YES! They were Redeemed from the Earth....Covered by the Blood of Jesus...Christians!
THE ISRAEL OF GOD!
[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
[SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
The Pharisee murderers were called sons of Satan by Jesus. God has always had His elect, His remnant, hidden in the midst of religion. I think that the 144,000 though, are chosen from the election sealed, to be marked as His Eternal Priesthood of another, higher order: The Melchizedek Priesthood!. They will be given songs that none other in Heaven will know, or be allowed to sing.
"And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
[SIZE=.75em] These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. [/SIZE]
These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. "
It doesn't mean a lot to others, I suppose, but believe it or not I think I am part of this group. Once I was sealed in a Night Vision,. on the center of my forehead...hard...like a man holding a railroad spike in his left hand, with a silver dollar welded to the end of it, & striking it like driving a nail....a seal. My whole body shook. That was it. I woke up stunned.
Another time I was made a Eunuch by two warring angels of the Lord. [ virgin?] I am aware of being with the Lord in the beginning, when the sons of God rejoiced...being created by Him.
I am a nobody, but I am Redeemed. I'm just saying that God is bigger than our ideas about prophesies that He spoke.
We are told that those descendents of the Ten Tribes will be as numerous as the sands of the sea and in Gen 48 that they will become the fullness of the nations. In some way the DNA of this multitude even 2700 years later still qualifies them to called children of the Living God.
The Word Pharisee should not be used in a derogatory manner.
Paul was of the sect of Pharisees who believed in Jesus and those same Pharisees are the people who began the church.
Tens of thousands of Pharisees believed in Jesus but I see the word,'' Pharisee'' being used as if there was not a righteous Pharisee.
It would be the same to look back on the murdering Christians who killed countless of people in the name of God, and then take the word,'' Christian'', and every time you use the word, say,'' The murdering Christians.''
There is no parallel to even make with the murders of the Pharisees and the murders committed by Christianity.
Christianity went far beyond what the Pharisees did.
Paul was of the sect of Pharisees who believed in Jesus and those same Pharisees are the people who began the church.
Tens of thousands of Pharisees believed in Jesus but I see the word,'' Pharisee'' being used as if there was not a righteous Pharisee.
It would be the same to look back on the murdering Christians who killed countless of people in the name of God, and then take the word,'' Christian'', and every time you use the word, say,'' The murdering Christians.''
There is no parallel to even make with the murders of the Pharisees and the murders committed by Christianity.
Christianity went far beyond what the Pharisees did.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Jacob_Rising.
Amen, bro! All Pharisee (Parush) means is a "Separatist," and sometimes I think they get a bum rap! The problem was not that the P'rushiym of Yeshua`s day were P'rushiym (plural of Parush) but was because they were HYPOCRITES!Jacob_Rising said:
Similar threads
