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The Seal of the Holy Spirit and the Seal of God.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Angelina, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    Yup, they do get a bum wrap and it's not fair.


    Not to mention that Herod Archelaus was deposed by Caesar Augustus in 6 a.d., and there is no doubt that Rome had it's hand in who had power in Jerusalem.
     
  2. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    I disagree with your synopsis...It may be true re; bloodline Jews and those who of the faith but that does not mean that Israel cannot turn to Christ during the GT. Note the word "elect" always refers to his chosen people Israel and not the "replacement theology" Church.
     
  3. Brothertom

    Brothertom All for Jesus no matter the cost.

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    "Note the word "elect" always refers to his chosen people Israel and not the "replacement theology" Church."
    Angelina.

    ​Here are some examples where the Word Elect refers directly to the Church...even the Gentile church.

    Romans:
    "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
    To Collasae: Highly Pagan city...& the church there.

    "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye."....Not just the Jews...

    To Thessalonica: & directly to the Gentile Church there:
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Knowing, brethren beloved, your ELECTION of God.

    Peter, speaking of the Gentile church at Rome:
    "The church that is at Babylon, ELECTED together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son."


    The Elect::


    "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Put on therefore, as the ELECT of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another.

    Christ is all & in all....not just a blood-line.

    [SIZE=.75em]" [/SIZE]I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]They answered and said unto him, "Abraham is our father!"

    Jesus saith unto them, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    [SIZE=.75em] "[/SIZE]Ye do the deeds of your father."

    Then said they to him, "We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God."

    [SIZE=.75em]42 [/SIZE]Jesus said unto them,

    " If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
    When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not!"


    The Elect are not a bloodline, but in Isaac your seed shall be. The Elect are children of the Promise. They become ONE TREE!...One Lord, One Faith, one Baptism .

    For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

    [SIZE=.75em]" [/SIZE]For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

    [SIZE=.75em] .............[/SIZE]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.

    For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    [SIZE=.75em] [/SIZE]
    Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

    There is such a thing as the Israel of God..This is not "Replacement Theology"....but sound Theology. There is no elite Jewish Class...but One body...& if any thing, this represents a Replacement of sorts from the simple truth that being born again from above is enough for one to become a child of God...period...& an elected one.
     
  4. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    Excellent Post!


    Ephraim bound to Judah in one body.


    Wouldn't it be true that Ephraim represents a part of our being, just as the word,'' Jew'' would also correspond to a part of what we are?


    If two were brought together to be one man, one body, then couldn't we also say that Ephraim represents the firstborn, our flesh?

    And the seed inside represents Judah?


    I twirl this around in my head.

    That Ephraim represents the body, and Judah represents the soul.


    But then there is little Benjamin.


    That David built Jerusalem in Benjamin and Benjamin was within both kingdoms.

    Do you have any thoughts of Benjamin like that?


    There is Ephraim, and there is Judah.


    I think that maybe Gentiles and Jews should both struggle to produce a Benjamin.


    Any thought?
     
  5. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    Deep thinking Jacob…something I need to think about. My initial reaction is Benjamin and Levi have become integrated with Judah the same as the other nine tribes have become joined together under Ephraim, somewhat the way when Joseph is listed in Rev 7, Ephraim is not listed but included it seems included under the name of Joseph (which of course is not a tribe) Because we are not told how to comprehend the different ways the tribes are listed in scripture I try not to speculate too much about different understandings. Obviously I do speculate but because I have no scriptural support I have no basis for a perceptive.

    I know you see things in threes and this thinking is a little curious to me at present.
     
  6. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    She had Two children.


    First there is Joseph and then comes Benjamin.

    The mother of a first born and second born.

    If Joseph's life represented the coming Messiah Ben Yoseph, then imagine what Joseph's little brother Benjamin means to him.


    And so the demand goes out from Joseph, Bring your brother here.


    Who will stand in the place of Joseph's brother?

    Benjamin is brought out and all were seated to the table not knowing their host.


    I can hear Joseph wailing in the shadows crying at seeing his only brother of the same mother.

    Joseph had really put them in fear until they produced Benjamin, and finally they gave in.
     
  7. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    Is this where you are coming from Jacob...

    Jewish tradition alludes to two redeemers, both called Mashiach and are involved in ushering in the Messianic age. They are called Mashiach ben David and Mashiach ben Joseph.
     
  8. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    The coming of the Lord is as the rain, the former and latter rains, 2 comings.

    So yeah, I would be a believer that Joseph came and David will come.
     
  9. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    I see the two comings; Yeshua came in accord to the spring feast and will return in conjunction with the fall feasts. I do not see two Messiahs, only one.
     
  10. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    I only see one Messiah also.
     
  11. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    Jacob you’re going to have to be a little more detailed regarding your thoughts; I’m a little confused on exactly what you are expressing. You’ll have to forgive me, I’m a little slow at times.
     
  12. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    You guys in this forum are anything but slow, this is the best forum that I have ever seen, so many seriously educated people.

    I probably can't get my point across, but I'll try and give you a clue of where I'm coming from{way out there}.


    My ramblings.

    The struggle between one son and the other is what makes the outcome in a manner of speaking.

    Like the struggle of Esau and Jacob symbolizing the struggle of flesh and spirit.

    The outcome of this struggle creates a new man named Israel, and this is the outcome.


    Like the struggle between Cain and Able representing the struggle between the flesh and spirit where one dies because both cannot live.

    The outcome is Seth.


    Like looking at the design of the transfiguration and seeing Moses and Elijah and this is the struggle between the law and faith and the outcome is Jesus.


    The struggle is between Ephraim and Judah, what is the outcome?

    If God makes a new man, it is a man of flesh and spirit and the two struggle until there is an outcome.
     
  13. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    Well Jacob I think Ezekiel pretty much tells us the outcome and I think it is summed up in 37:20-28

    (Ezekiel) 37:20-28 And the sticks shall be in your hand, the ones on which you write before their eyes. And say to them, 'So says HaShem: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and will bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two nations still. And they will not be split into two kingdoms any more. And they will not still be defiled with their idols, even with their filthy idols, nor with all of their transgressions. But I will save them out of all their dwelling places where they have sinned in them, and I will cleanse them. So they shall be for a people to Me and I will be their G-d. And My Servant, David, shall be King over them. And there shall be one Shepherd to all of them. And they shall walk in My judgments and keep My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to my servant, to Jacob, there where your fathers dwelt in it. And they shall dwell on it, they and their sons, and the sons of their sons, forever. And My Servant David shall be a ruler to them forever. And I will cut a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant it shall be with them, And I will place them and multiply them, and I will put My sanctuary in their midst forever. And My tabernacle shall be with them, and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people. And when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever, the nations shall know that I, HaShem, sanctify Israel.'"
     
  14. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    Revelation 2:17 I will give him a white stone, and a NEW NAME written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.

    Isaiah 56 '' To them I will give a name better than that of sons and daughters.

    Out of the people of Judah and Ephraim, the overcomers will be given a new name because they achieved the outcome.


    The majority{imo} does not obtain the reward of getting a new name like the overcomers achieve.


    I believe this name is the outcome from the good struggle of flesh and spirit.

    That Ephraim represents the first born son and is called the first born son of God.


    If Christ takes two men, and then makes one man out of the two, he has built a new man out of two men.

    I still believe that Ephraim represents the body of this man, and that Judah represents the spirit.


    Both of them struggle just as Christianity and Judaism has struggled, as Gentiles have now separated from part of their body because of this great struggle between Gentiles and Jews.

    I see Jesus bringing Ephraim and Judah together in Gentiles becoming one man with Jews, but I also see the brotherhood of Ephraim and Judah broken.


    The struggle of Christianity abolishing the law and all the Jewish ways in separation looks like the same ancient struggle that has always been.


    But one day this has to be fixed, where Ephraim will no longer be jealous of Judah, and Judah will no longer harass Ephraim.




    Deut 33 '' About Benjamin he said: '' Let the beloved of the Lord rest secure IN him, for he shields him all day long, AND THE ONE THE LORD LOVES RESTS BETWEEN HIS SHOULDERS.''

    Little Benjamin{Jonathon} didn't want to be the king when he gave up his ring, and his Robe and everything that made him a King, Jonathon, a son of Benjamin and true beloved of David. His love was better than that of women.

    We see the same picture in John who actually did rests between the bosom of our Lord.

    Jerusalem of Benjamin truly did rest between the bosom of two kingdoms.

    Benjamin was truly part of both kingdoms.


    Genesis 49 is like a ladder one would climb to reach the top in their walk with God. Jacob called his sons together and showed them 12 allotments of times and steps, and that last step is Benjamin where in the last days after the days of Joseph, Benjamin is the ravenous wolf.

    In the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.


    Well, if I have a new man which are made from Judah, and Ephraim, I am looking for Benjamin, son of the south, son of the right hand.

    If I had to put them in order, it would be that Ephraim is in my body, and Judah is the spirit that is to guide my body, and I act accordingly and have a good outcome between Judah and Ephraim, then I will produce the son of the right hand.


    Sorry Saint, I really am going to stop these ramblings, I just thought it may be that somebody might run across this that thinks like I do in this way.


    Or that there is something in what I am saying and that I have it just a little mixed up.


    Just thinking out loud.

    Pay no attention!
     
  15. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    I welcome your thinking out loud Jacob and I think it worth while to stop and consider your message; it is somewhat out of the ordinary to me so I have no real observation at this time, but I will consider it. I will say, while I'm not able to see the completeness of your reflection somehow it has a ring of reality to it.
     
  16. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Brothertom
    Okay Lets break this down :) firstly I would like to point out that most folks who wish to back up their theology do not just site the Chapter but the verse also...

    your quote:
    This verse is speaking about the remnant quoted in Romans 11:2
    2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him?

    5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    He is still referring to Israel in the above passage regarding the elect - note that the rest is referring to those of Israel who were not called "elect" but they were blinded.>

    8 Just as it is written:

    “God has given them a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes that they should not see
    And ears that they should not hear,
    To this very day.”


    Further down this same chapter please note:

    Romans 11:28
    Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Again you have failed to site chapter or verse in the passages you have quoted below ;)


    Your quote
    The above passages are in reference to being one new man in Christ. **

    Some scholars believe that the Thessalonian Church was made up of both Jews Acts 17:4 and Greeks 2:14.


    Isaiah 45:4
    For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.


    Romans 11
    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.


    Ephesians 2**
    11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
    14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
    19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

    I have no issue with the fact that those who have been born again are considered as part of the "elect" due to their faith in Christ. I do understand however, that God has called Israel his elect since Israel became a nation. Their election is due to the sake of the Fathers but they must also come by way of the cross by faith. They will be shown mercy during the GT just as we have been shown mercy due to their disobedience. [until the fullness of the Gentiles have come in].

    Also note in Revelation 7 re; the 144,000 who were about to be sealed by the angel... directly after that, the scene changes to "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues," in heaven... “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    The nations of the earth do not change their title right up until the time they enter heaven during the GT. It is therefore obvious that the 144,000 being sealed on earth are indeed Israel the nation...

    Shalom!!!
     
  17. Jacob_Rising

    Jacob_Rising New Member

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    Jacob is 4 men.

    1-Rueben, Levi, Simeon
    2-Judah, Zebulun, Issacchar
    3-Dan, Gad, Asher
    4-Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin.


    Genesis 49 groups this way as 4 men.


    But God changes around the men, he takes from this one, and adds to that one, and he refines each man.

    Genesis 49:7 I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.


    Jacob spoke badly about Simeon but Moses turns these blessing around in Deut 33.


    Watch how Moses puts Simeon in Judah now, we don't see Simeon's name but he is obviously shown.

    Deut 33:7 And this is the blessing of Judah: and he said, '' HEAR, Lord, the voice of Judah, and bring him into his people.


    Simeon's name means,'' The Lord hears.''


    That's what God does, it takes 3 names to build a man, and names are moved here and there being refined.

    Throw in the sons of Joseph, move this with that one until you refine them after time until you make a new man.



    Hosea had to have 3 names in talking about Israel when Hosea had to produce 3 children for those names and meanings of their names.
     
  18. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, everyone.

    I was reading through these last few posts, and I've gotta chime in. Any time that one of you is having a problem with what is said or concluded, it appears to me that what is happening is that one or both of you have some term or terms that you are treating as preconceived labels instead of active realities. That sounds like gobbledygook, so let me explain with an example. (And, really I'm not being judgmental of any party here):


    What I'm trying to say is that we have terminology that we treat as LABELS for different groups of people instead of letting them be the words of action and verbs that they are. For instance we are CHOSEN by God or ELECT of God, not THE Elect! Can you see the difference? God will choose whom He will choose, and it is in GOD'S choosing that we are "elected" or "chosen" by God, not because we belong to a certain category of people!
     
  19. Saint

    Saint New Member

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    I just want to make a point in an area where confusion about wording might exist. Once again the word in question is “Gentiles”. I again want to quote what I had posted earlier:
    Young’s translation uses the word goyim correctly; it is translated as “nations”

    I say, then, Did they stumble that they might fall? let it not be! but by their fall the salvation is to the nations, to arouse them to jealousy;
    (Rom 11:11 YLT)


    For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this secret--that ye may not be wise in your own conceits--that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in;
    (Rom 11:25 YLT)

    Now we need to go back to Genesis 48 to get the full understand of just what the fullness of the nations really is…

    And his father refuseth, and saith, `I have known, my son, I have known; he also becometh a people, and he also is great, and yet, his young brother is greater than he, and his seed is the fulness of the nations;'
    (Gen 48:19 YLT)

    The fullness on the nations is none other than the descendants of the Lost House of Israel. When we have these questions we need to let the word enlighten our understanding and not our emotions.
     
  20. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    your quote;
    my quote;
    The case you are presenting is that the "fullness of the nations" refers to the Lost tribe of Israel. This would leave out a great load of nations including those who are not Greeks or of Jewish ancestry but they are saved by grace through faith. It is more likely that the "fullness of the nations/gentiles" refers to all other nations that are not Israel.

    Romans 11
    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in".

    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

    Acts 13
    44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

    ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
    That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”


    48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
     
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