May I suggest again to use your ignore buttons, they do work and then you won't see prophecy student's posts.
The Septuagint
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Thanks Dave for your support and intelligent consideration. I don't want to worry too much about ProphecyStudent (and others who are similar). In short, those who think alike will find each other. ProphecyStudent helps in aiding that process. This helps us to identify them; and for them to identify us... Paul says to "mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them." (Romans 16:16) I would be grateful if you make me aware of any other such persons that you encounter so that they can also be avoided.
Our war is not against flesh and blood; our true enemy has blinded minds and enslaved them for his wicked end. I am glad to have found the few brothers and sisters on the forum that are a true blessing and lovers of truth. Those who are otherwise will be with us right up until the end. They are like hackers; as soon as you enforce some security they will discover some other breach of security they can take advantage of. If I expose their agendas I hope I can do so without any bitterness of ill will. It is hard to operate in darkness with a light shining on you... I do not want to feed them with even more accusations either.
As the devil cannot have the fruits of the Spirit, so too, neither can his ministers demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit. All they can claim is to "give light" (knowledge), because the devil poses as an angel of light. This knowledge, along with our trust in God, is ample protection.
God Bless
Steve
Our war is not against flesh and blood; our true enemy has blinded minds and enslaved them for his wicked end. I am glad to have found the few brothers and sisters on the forum that are a true blessing and lovers of truth. Those who are otherwise will be with us right up until the end. They are like hackers; as soon as you enforce some security they will discover some other breach of security they can take advantage of. If I expose their agendas I hope I can do so without any bitterness of ill will. It is hard to operate in darkness with a light shining on you... I do not want to feed them with even more accusations either.
As the devil cannot have the fruits of the Spirit, so too, neither can his ministers demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit. All they can claim is to "give light" (knowledge), because the devil poses as an angel of light. This knowledge, along with our trust in God, is ample protection.
God Bless
Steve
Paul wrote:
Philippians 1
[sup]15[/sup] It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. [sup]16[/sup] The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. [sup]17[/sup] The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. [sup]18[/sup] But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, [sup]19[/sup] for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[sup][d][/sup] [sup]20[/sup] I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. [sup]21[/sup] For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
And where the selfish ambition is the weakness of the flesh, even so the Gospel is proclaimed. And those that hear it are able to rightly divide the Truth from the envy, Scripture from rivalry, and Christ from religion.
Philippians 1
[sup]15[/sup] It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. [sup]16[/sup] The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. [sup]17[/sup] The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. [sup]18[/sup] But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, [sup]19[/sup] for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[sup][d][/sup] [sup]20[/sup] I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. [sup]21[/sup] For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
And where the selfish ambition is the weakness of the flesh, even so the Gospel is proclaimed. And those that hear it are able to rightly divide the Truth from the envy, Scripture from rivalry, and Christ from religion.
-- Meanwhile ...
Speaking strictly for the Book of Daniel, -- I wish someone could provide tangible evidence instead of empty assertitions:
1. The enemy scholars [?Masoretic?] also state that the book of Daniel is fake
-- The ~150 B.C. Qumran Book of Daniel SUBSTANTIATES the "integrity" of the Masoretic Text.
2. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the Septuagint to a much greater extent than they do the Masoretic.
-- The Qumran Book of Daniel analysis does not support this premise.
3. Daniel is very selectively chosen, and it also is heavily debated among "the scholars"
-- The scholars focus on the Book of Daniel because of it's historical plentyfulness in the Qumran Caves, and the completeness of nearly all the chapters.
4. Dead Sea Scrolls are closer to the Masoretic because they were written in Hebrew
-- The Dead Sea Scrolls ARE the Masoretic text, as evidence by modern texts which are reputed to be virtually identical to the ~150 B.C. texts.
5. The translation behind the Septuagint has been found to be much closer to the Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew then it is to the Masoretic Hebrew
-- This does not agree with the scholars opinions.
6. A very thorough study has been produced by Grant Jones: http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spindex.htm
-- This "study" does NOT provide a comparison of the Mastoretic and Septuagint to the Dead Sea (Qumran) Scrolls.
7. The Masoretes had systematically destroyed manuscripts each time a new translation was made; that is why we only have Masoretic manuscripts dating from 900 years after Christ.
-- This individual errantly calls a new copy a "translation", and appears to suggest that changes were made when new copies were generated. However, the Dead Sea (Qumran) Scrolls refute this apparent premise.
8. Regarding Daniel 9:25, -- the differences you speak of are superficial, they do not really exist.
-- They do indeed exist, and contradict both Scriptural precedence, societal precedence, and historial fulfillment.
9. I find nothing in these verses that speak of the “two anointed ones”.
-- The JPS, and some English translations correctly reflect an anointed one after the seven, and a second anointed on after the sixty-two.
10. The 7 + 62 weeks are mentioned in both manuscripts.
-- The Masoretic Text reflects the seven as one increment, and the sixty-two as a second increment. The Septuagint reflects these as though the Author had intended one increment of ~sixty-nine.
11. The terms, doing “violence to scripture” is a manipulative and deceitful
-- If you can cite a single precedence either in Scripture or any society in world history were a value is presented by two numbers which must be summed (i.e., a hammer costing 3 + 18 dollars) then please provide that precedent.
12. In the Masoretic it has the word "anointed"; in the Septuagint is has the word "Christ". These two terms mean exactly the same thing.
-- mashiyach (H4899) does not mean "Christ". Of the 39 uses, 37 are clearly NOT "Christ" ( -- and the two cited in Daniel 9 are NOT "Christ" either -- ): Ref: Leviticus 4:3, in which instructions are given should the mashiyach sin.
13. Masoretic WAS changed over the centuries
-- As already referenced, the modern Masoretic Book of Daniel is virtually identical to the Dead Sea [Qumran} Scrolls.
14. The Masoretic is not older than the LXX, and a pure Masoretic text older than 900 AD has not been found.
-- The Dead Sea (Qumran) Scroll book of Daniel copy is older than the oldest Septuagint (LXX) copy.
15. The Septuagint was not translated from the Masoretic. ... the LXX and Masoretic were both translated from a common parent.
-- The two texts co-existed within a verifiable ~hundred year span at ~150 B.C. If you have some evidence of a "common parent" then please present it.
16. No other MSS follow the Masoretic.
-- The King James Version follows the Masoretic Text.
Steve, I don't mind that we are talking across each other. I have what I believe to be reliable and verifiable evidence which supports the Masoretic Text of Daniel. Even the ~three chapters~ which you acclaim as being included in the Septuagint but are not found in the Masoretic Text, refute the Septuagint. These are neither in concert with the other chapters, nor do they support any prophetic concepts. (Please note that Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, & 12 all confirm prophecy. However, these additional three chapters are devoid of any prophetic affiliation.)
You apparently have other Books which you have investigated, but because you discount the undeniable integrity of the Masoretic Book of Daniel, (a nearly complete book from the Qumran Caves), the rest of your argument is suspect.
How can one trust a used car salesman who insists that bald tires provide better traction?
.
Speaking strictly for the Book of Daniel, -- I wish someone could provide tangible evidence instead of empty assertitions:
1. The enemy scholars [?Masoretic?] also state that the book of Daniel is fake
-- The ~150 B.C. Qumran Book of Daniel SUBSTANTIATES the "integrity" of the Masoretic Text.
2. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the Septuagint to a much greater extent than they do the Masoretic.
-- The Qumran Book of Daniel analysis does not support this premise.
3. Daniel is very selectively chosen, and it also is heavily debated among "the scholars"
-- The scholars focus on the Book of Daniel because of it's historical plentyfulness in the Qumran Caves, and the completeness of nearly all the chapters.
4. Dead Sea Scrolls are closer to the Masoretic because they were written in Hebrew
-- The Dead Sea Scrolls ARE the Masoretic text, as evidence by modern texts which are reputed to be virtually identical to the ~150 B.C. texts.
5. The translation behind the Septuagint has been found to be much closer to the Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew then it is to the Masoretic Hebrew
-- This does not agree with the scholars opinions.
6. A very thorough study has been produced by Grant Jones: http://mysite.verizon.net/rgjones3/Septuagint/spindex.htm
-- This "study" does NOT provide a comparison of the Mastoretic and Septuagint to the Dead Sea (Qumran) Scrolls.
7. The Masoretes had systematically destroyed manuscripts each time a new translation was made; that is why we only have Masoretic manuscripts dating from 900 years after Christ.
-- This individual errantly calls a new copy a "translation", and appears to suggest that changes were made when new copies were generated. However, the Dead Sea (Qumran) Scrolls refute this apparent premise.
8. Regarding Daniel 9:25, -- the differences you speak of are superficial, they do not really exist.
-- They do indeed exist, and contradict both Scriptural precedence, societal precedence, and historial fulfillment.
9. I find nothing in these verses that speak of the “two anointed ones”.
-- The JPS, and some English translations correctly reflect an anointed one after the seven, and a second anointed on after the sixty-two.
10. The 7 + 62 weeks are mentioned in both manuscripts.
-- The Masoretic Text reflects the seven as one increment, and the sixty-two as a second increment. The Septuagint reflects these as though the Author had intended one increment of ~sixty-nine.
11. The terms, doing “violence to scripture” is a manipulative and deceitful
-- If you can cite a single precedence either in Scripture or any society in world history were a value is presented by two numbers which must be summed (i.e., a hammer costing 3 + 18 dollars) then please provide that precedent.
12. In the Masoretic it has the word "anointed"; in the Septuagint is has the word "Christ". These two terms mean exactly the same thing.
-- mashiyach (H4899) does not mean "Christ". Of the 39 uses, 37 are clearly NOT "Christ" ( -- and the two cited in Daniel 9 are NOT "Christ" either -- ): Ref: Leviticus 4:3, in which instructions are given should the mashiyach sin.
13. Masoretic WAS changed over the centuries
-- As already referenced, the modern Masoretic Book of Daniel is virtually identical to the Dead Sea [Qumran} Scrolls.
14. The Masoretic is not older than the LXX, and a pure Masoretic text older than 900 AD has not been found.
-- The Dead Sea (Qumran) Scroll book of Daniel copy is older than the oldest Septuagint (LXX) copy.
15. The Septuagint was not translated from the Masoretic. ... the LXX and Masoretic were both translated from a common parent.
-- The two texts co-existed within a verifiable ~hundred year span at ~150 B.C. If you have some evidence of a "common parent" then please present it.
16. No other MSS follow the Masoretic.
-- The King James Version follows the Masoretic Text.
Steve, I don't mind that we are talking across each other. I have what I believe to be reliable and verifiable evidence which supports the Masoretic Text of Daniel. Even the ~three chapters~ which you acclaim as being included in the Septuagint but are not found in the Masoretic Text, refute the Septuagint. These are neither in concert with the other chapters, nor do they support any prophetic concepts. (Please note that Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, & 12 all confirm prophecy. However, these additional three chapters are devoid of any prophetic affiliation.)
You apparently have other Books which you have investigated, but because you discount the undeniable integrity of the Masoretic Book of Daniel, (a nearly complete book from the Qumran Caves), the rest of your argument is suspect.
How can one trust a used car salesman who insists that bald tires provide better traction?
.
Im not responding to your lies any longer; those who follow this thread will need to work out for themselves, if they are interested, whether or not you tell the truth.
Notes on Daniel for those interested:
The following is the postscript to the book of Daniel in Martin Abegg’s “The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible”. In it is a complete translation of the manuscripts of Daniels that were discovered at Qumran. This is the only translation available in printed form.
“Eight Daniel manuscripts were found at Qumran: two in Cave 1, five in Cave 4, and one in Cave 6. Unfortunately, none is complete due to the ravages of time, but between them they preserve a substantial amount of the book of Daniel. All eight scrolls were copied in the space of 175 years, ranging from 125 BCE to 50 CE.
Note: The book of Daniel was not the oldest translation found, as was stated in a previous post; the translations begin at 125 BC.
“It is also interesting to note that all of the chapters were present except for chapter 12.”
Note: The Septuagint has 3 additional chapters after chapter 12; Bel and the Dragon; History of Susanna, and the Song of the Three Young Men. It is unknown if the original DSS manuscripts contained these LXX chapters or not. It is true that the additional chapters of LXX Daniel are not included with the Daniel manuscript; but every chapter after chapter 12 was missing. (The History of Suzanna has been found in the DSS separately.) Masoretic advocates jump on this as "evidence" that the DSS followed the Masoretic, but this is clearly not the case.
In the Masoretic canon Daniel is placed among the “Writings”; whereas the Septuagint places Daniel among the “Prophets”. Where was Daniel placed in the DSS? Among the Prophets! The formula of Daniel follows the LXX.
“To say that the Daniel scrolls contain a book like the one found in the Hebrew (Masoretic) Bible does not mean that they contain exactly the same text. On the contrary, readings for individual words or groups of words frequently differ. For example… in Daniel 10:16, where the Hebrew (Masoretic) Bible reads “one in the likeness of the sons of men,” but pap6QDan most likely agrees with the Septuagint’s “something in the likeness of a human hand.”
Note: The Septuagint was translated in 280 BC, whereas the DSS Daniel was translated in 125 BC. It is appears more likely that the DSS were translated from the same manuscript family that the LXX belongs to, and that the Masoretic belongs to another family (similar to the Samaritan Text). This is suggested by the additional LXX chapter being part of the DSS (Suzanna); and the placement of Daniel among the Prophets, as is found in the LXX. There are also multiple references that align with the LXX against the Masoretic.
Information can easily be manipulated and twisted to support any theory. This is why we have so many different sects and cults; they manipulate information to fit their theory. Although there are those who would continually disrupt, I ask you all not to be easily shaken. Often people who are manically compulsive in arguments are battling demons because of excess baggage of sin in their lives. It may because they are gluttons, or like looking at young girls. This is why people become pawns of the evil one, because they have sin that they hide and never repent of. Many of our enemies are such because of concealed sin.
God Bless
Steve
The following is the postscript to the book of Daniel in Martin Abegg’s “The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible”. In it is a complete translation of the manuscripts of Daniels that were discovered at Qumran. This is the only translation available in printed form.
“Eight Daniel manuscripts were found at Qumran: two in Cave 1, five in Cave 4, and one in Cave 6. Unfortunately, none is complete due to the ravages of time, but between them they preserve a substantial amount of the book of Daniel. All eight scrolls were copied in the space of 175 years, ranging from 125 BCE to 50 CE.
Note: The book of Daniel was not the oldest translation found, as was stated in a previous post; the translations begin at 125 BC.
“It is also interesting to note that all of the chapters were present except for chapter 12.”
Note: The Septuagint has 3 additional chapters after chapter 12; Bel and the Dragon; History of Susanna, and the Song of the Three Young Men. It is unknown if the original DSS manuscripts contained these LXX chapters or not. It is true that the additional chapters of LXX Daniel are not included with the Daniel manuscript; but every chapter after chapter 12 was missing. (The History of Suzanna has been found in the DSS separately.) Masoretic advocates jump on this as "evidence" that the DSS followed the Masoretic, but this is clearly not the case.
In the Masoretic canon Daniel is placed among the “Writings”; whereas the Septuagint places Daniel among the “Prophets”. Where was Daniel placed in the DSS? Among the Prophets! The formula of Daniel follows the LXX.
“To say that the Daniel scrolls contain a book like the one found in the Hebrew (Masoretic) Bible does not mean that they contain exactly the same text. On the contrary, readings for individual words or groups of words frequently differ. For example… in Daniel 10:16, where the Hebrew (Masoretic) Bible reads “one in the likeness of the sons of men,” but pap6QDan most likely agrees with the Septuagint’s “something in the likeness of a human hand.”
Note: The Septuagint was translated in 280 BC, whereas the DSS Daniel was translated in 125 BC. It is appears more likely that the DSS were translated from the same manuscript family that the LXX belongs to, and that the Masoretic belongs to another family (similar to the Samaritan Text). This is suggested by the additional LXX chapter being part of the DSS (Suzanna); and the placement of Daniel among the Prophets, as is found in the LXX. There are also multiple references that align with the LXX against the Masoretic.
Information can easily be manipulated and twisted to support any theory. This is why we have so many different sects and cults; they manipulate information to fit their theory. Although there are those who would continually disrupt, I ask you all not to be easily shaken. Often people who are manically compulsive in arguments are battling demons because of excess baggage of sin in their lives. It may because they are gluttons, or like looking at young girls. This is why people become pawns of the evil one, because they have sin that they hide and never repent of. Many of our enemies are such because of concealed sin.
God Bless
Steve
The distinction for the Book of Daniel is not whether it's the oldest copy or oldest text, but simply whether it was the most complete text with which to compare to the modern text. Toward this the scholars noted:
"Daniel fragments found at Qumran that support the integrity of the MT (see 1992, 5[2]:50). ...
Qumran fragments conform very closely to the MT overall, with only a few rare variants in the former that side with the Septuagint version ...
it is evident that the MT is a well-preserved rendition of Daniel ..."
Already refuted in the first response.
The oldest copy of the Septuagint is 400 A.D.
The oldest copy of the modern Masoretic Text is 900 A.D.
The Dead Sea (Qumran) Scrolls date to ~150 B.C.
The Dead Sea (Qumran) scrolls do not agree with the Septuagint:
a comparison of the Septuagint translation (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) with the MT revealed tremendous disparity in length and content between the two texts. Due to these and other considerations, critical scholars assigned little value to the MT rendition of Daniel.
Once again, however, the findings at Qumran have confirmed the integrity of Daniel’s text.Gerhard Hasel listed several strands of evidence from the Daniel fragments found at Qumran that support the integrity of the MT (see 1992, 5[2]:50). First, for the most part, the Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts of Daniel are very consistent in content among themselves, containing very few variants. Second, the Qumran fragments conform very closely to the MT overall, with only a few rare variants in the former that side with the Septuagint version. Third, the transitions from Hebrew to Aramaic are preserved in the Qumran fragments. Based on such overwhelming data, it is evident that the MT is a well-preserved rendition of Daniel. In short, Qumran assures us that we can be reasonably confident that the Daniel text on which our English translations are based is one of integrity. Practically speaking, this means that we have at our disposal, through faithful translations of the original, the truth God revealed to Daniel centuries ago.
Sin is such that one accuses others of their own guilty conscience.
It's a sad thing when the religious not only spin their own doctrines, but then reveal their personal problems in a public arena. But if these should come to Christ, He is faithful and just to forgive them of their sins. For He calls each of us, but who will heed His calling?
PropphecyStudent
ProphecyStudent, my fat fingered friend.
The scholars you quote to support Daniel twist the facts to keep the Masoretic status quo at all costs. The quotes above are from Martin Abegg; and he has written the only existing translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible. You are not contradicting me; you are contradicting Abegg when you say that Daniel was the most complete manuscript… there are no complete manuscripts of Daniel! The only complete manuscript found was from Isaiah, and it also dates much before 150 BC. As I said, information is twisted to support a theory, and it is a lie.
Since you have earmarked me on several threads, and stalk me, I will continue to expose your need of repentance with every opportunity…
I mention about secret sin because I know of these things through God’s Spirit. I am aware that certain demons are behind certain pig-headed attitudes. I am aware that overt behaviour is attached to secret sin. This argument is not just a debate about manuscripts; it is a spiritual war waged by spiritual forces. Those spiritual forces control a weaker person through sin. Arrogant and conceited behaviour is evidence of those spiritual forces at work.
This topic is about the Septuagint; not the book of Daniel or the Dead Sea Scrolls. Hijacking a thread with ulterior motives is also evidence of demonic forces at work. When people criticise you and belittle you, it is the demons they see in you that they belittle. You wear these demons like a badge. You do untold damage to other Christians because of your arrogant and conceited mannerisms. You do damage, yet you do not care. You do not care or love other Christians, yet your demon drooled over the thread of a young girl speaking on video. Your demon is quite disgusting. I know this demon, and this demon knows me. We have mutual hatred for each other. I do not expect you to agree because you entertain demons by your secret sins.
I ask you most strongly, brother, to repent of your sins and be healed. Do not become the Judas that your demon is forcing onto your character.
God Bless
Steve
The scholars you quote to support Daniel twist the facts to keep the Masoretic status quo at all costs. The quotes above are from Martin Abegg; and he has written the only existing translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible. You are not contradicting me; you are contradicting Abegg when you say that Daniel was the most complete manuscript… there are no complete manuscripts of Daniel! The only complete manuscript found was from Isaiah, and it also dates much before 150 BC. As I said, information is twisted to support a theory, and it is a lie.
Since you have earmarked me on several threads, and stalk me, I will continue to expose your need of repentance with every opportunity…
I mention about secret sin because I know of these things through God’s Spirit. I am aware that certain demons are behind certain pig-headed attitudes. I am aware that overt behaviour is attached to secret sin. This argument is not just a debate about manuscripts; it is a spiritual war waged by spiritual forces. Those spiritual forces control a weaker person through sin. Arrogant and conceited behaviour is evidence of those spiritual forces at work.
This topic is about the Septuagint; not the book of Daniel or the Dead Sea Scrolls. Hijacking a thread with ulterior motives is also evidence of demonic forces at work. When people criticise you and belittle you, it is the demons they see in you that they belittle. You wear these demons like a badge. You do untold damage to other Christians because of your arrogant and conceited mannerisms. You do damage, yet you do not care. You do not care or love other Christians, yet your demon drooled over the thread of a young girl speaking on video. Your demon is quite disgusting. I know this demon, and this demon knows me. We have mutual hatred for each other. I do not expect you to agree because you entertain demons by your secret sins.
I ask you most strongly, brother, to repent of your sins and be healed. Do not become the Judas that your demon is forcing onto your character.
God Bless
Steve
Hi Steve,
More important than a discussion on Biblical topics, I must address your ungodly slander which includes vulgar, hateful, dishonest, disreputable, and vile accusations. Who in any realm of Christianity would accuse someone who presents scholarly information as:
You're a troubled man with some serious issues. I hope you can find help, and I hope you can find Christ.
PropphecyStudent
More important than a discussion on Biblical topics, I must address your ungodly slander which includes vulgar, hateful, dishonest, disreputable, and vile accusations. Who in any realm of Christianity would accuse someone who presents scholarly information as:
You're a troubled man with some serious issues. I hope you can find help, and I hope you can find Christ.
PropphecyStudent
Justin Martyr wrote many letters in which he discusses the origin of the Septuagint, and the alteration of the Masoretic. In the last letter (below), Dialogue wth Trypho, the conversation outlines the project begun by Rabbi Akiva to change the Masoretic scriptures. Note that their conversations are similar in nature to conversations on a modern online forum:
Justin Martyr: Hortatory Address to the Greeks (Approx. 146 AD)
[sup]Chapter 13 [/sup]But if any one says that the writings of Moses and of the rest of the prophets were also written in the Greek character, let him read profane histories, and know that Ptolemy, king of Egypt, when he had built the library in Alexandria, and by gathering books from every quarter had filled it, then learnt that very ancient histories written in Hebrew happened to be carefully preserved; and wishing to know their contents, he sent for seventy wise men from Jerusalem, who were acquainted with both the Greek and Hebrew language, and appointed them to translate the books; and that in freedom from all disturbance they might the more speedily complete the translation, he ordered that there should be constructed, not in the city itself, but seven stadia off (where the Pharos was built), as many little cots as there were translators, so that each by himself might complete his own translation; and enjoined upon those officers who were appointed to this duty, to afford them all attendance, but to prevent communication with one another, in order that the accuracy of the translation might be discernible even by their agreement. And when he ascertained that the seventy men had not only given the same meaning, but had employed the same words, and had failed in agreement with one another not even to the extent of one word; but had written the same things, and concerning the same things, he was struck with amazement, and believed that the translation had been written by divine power, and perceived that the men were worthy of all honour, as beloved of God; and with many gifts ordered them to return to their own country. And having, as was natural, marveled at the books, and concluded them to be divine, he consecrated them in that library. These things, you men of Greece, are no fable, nor do we narrate fictions; but we ourselves having been in Alexandria, saw the remains of the little cots at the Pharos still preserved, and having heard these things from the inhabitants, who had received them as part of their country's tradition, we now tell to you what you can also learn from others, and specially from those wise and esteemed men who have written of these things, Philo and Josephus, and many others. But if any of those who are wont to be forward in contradiction should say that these books do not belong to us, but to the Jews, and should assert that we in vain profess to have learnt our religion from them, let him know, as he may from those very things which are written in these books, that not to them, but to us, does the doctrine of them refer. That the books relating to our religion are to this day preserved among the Jews, has been a work of Divine Providence on our behalf; for lest, by producing them out of the Church, we should give occasion to those who wish to slander us to charge us with fraud, we demand that they be produced from the synagogue of the Jews, that from the very books still preserved among them it might clearly and evidently appear, that the laws which were written by holy men for instruction pertain to us.
Justin Martyr: 1[sup]st[/sup] Apology to Emperor Antoninus (Approx. 148 AD)
[sup]Chapter 31 [/sup]There were, then, among the Jews certain men who were prophets of God, through whom the prophetic Spirit published beforehand things that were to come to pass, ere ever they happened. And their prophecies, as they were spoken and when they were uttered, the kings who happened to be reigning among the Jews at the several times carefully preserved in their possession, when they had been arranged in books by the prophets themselves in their own Hebrew language. And when Ptolemy king of Egypt formed a library, and endeavored to collect the writings of all men, he heard also of these prophets, and sent to Herod, who was at that time king of the Jews, requesting that the books of the prophets be sent to him (this should read Eleazar the High Priest; not Herod – this was an error from a later translator). And Herod the king did indeed send them, written, as they were, in the foresaid Hebrew language. And when their contents were found to be unintelligible to the Egyptians, he again sent and requested that men be commissioned to translate them into the Greek language. And when this was done, the books remained with the Egyptians, where they are until now. They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, (Simon Bar Kokhba 135 AD) the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy. In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man's estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognized, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God. We find it also predicted that certain persons should be sent by Him into every nation to publish these things, and that rather among the Gentiles [than among the Jews] men should believe on Him. And He was predicted before He appeared, first 5000 years before, and again 3000, then 2000, then 1000, and yet again 800; for in the succession of generations prophets after prophets arose.
Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Approx. 150 AD)
[sup]Chapter 71 [/sup]"But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the translation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, king of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' (Isaiah 8:14) And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof."
Here Trypho remarked, "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely removed."
[sup]Chapter 72 [/sup]And I said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the Passover, they have taken away the following:
'And Esdras said to the people, This Passover is our Savior and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken forever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.' (This verse is lacking in all modern bibles).
And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following:
'I was like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.' (Jeremiah 11:19)
And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies of the Scriptures in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out:
'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.' (This verse was quoted also by Irenaeus, but is lacking in all modern bibles).
[sup]Chapter 73 [/sup]"And from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: 'From the wood.' For when the passage said, 'Tell you among the nations, the Lord has reigned from the wood,' they have left, 'Tell you among the nations, the Lord has reigned.' Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from the grave, declaring that there is none like Him among the gods of the nations: for they are idols of demons. But I shall repeat the whole Psalm to you, that you may perceive what has been said. It is thus:
'Sing unto the Lord a new song; sing unto the Lord, all the earth. Sing unto the Lord, and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. Confession and beauty are in His presence; holiness and magnificence are in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O you countries of the nations, bring to the Lord glory and honour, bring to the Lord glory in His name. Take sacrifices, and go into His courts; worship the Lord in His holy temple. Let the whole earth be moved before Him tell you among the nations, the Lord has reigned. For He has established the world, which shall not be moved; He shall judge the nations with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be glad; let the sea and its fullness shake. Let the fields and all therein be joyful. Let all the trees of the wood be glad before the Lord: for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.' "
Here Trypho remarked, "Whether or not the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible."
"Assuredly," said I, "it does seem incredible. For it is more horrible than the calf which they made, when satisfied with manna on the earth; or than the sacrifice of children to demons; or than the slaying of the prophets. But," said I, "you appear to me not to have heard the Scriptures which I said they had stolen away. For such as have been quoted are more than enough to prove the points in dispute, besides those which are retained by us, and shall yet be brought forward."
There will be more from other 2nd century authors to follow...
God Bless
Steve
Justin Martyr: Hortatory Address to the Greeks (Approx. 146 AD)
[sup]Chapter 13 [/sup]But if any one says that the writings of Moses and of the rest of the prophets were also written in the Greek character, let him read profane histories, and know that Ptolemy, king of Egypt, when he had built the library in Alexandria, and by gathering books from every quarter had filled it, then learnt that very ancient histories written in Hebrew happened to be carefully preserved; and wishing to know their contents, he sent for seventy wise men from Jerusalem, who were acquainted with both the Greek and Hebrew language, and appointed them to translate the books; and that in freedom from all disturbance they might the more speedily complete the translation, he ordered that there should be constructed, not in the city itself, but seven stadia off (where the Pharos was built), as many little cots as there were translators, so that each by himself might complete his own translation; and enjoined upon those officers who were appointed to this duty, to afford them all attendance, but to prevent communication with one another, in order that the accuracy of the translation might be discernible even by their agreement. And when he ascertained that the seventy men had not only given the same meaning, but had employed the same words, and had failed in agreement with one another not even to the extent of one word; but had written the same things, and concerning the same things, he was struck with amazement, and believed that the translation had been written by divine power, and perceived that the men were worthy of all honour, as beloved of God; and with many gifts ordered them to return to their own country. And having, as was natural, marveled at the books, and concluded them to be divine, he consecrated them in that library. These things, you men of Greece, are no fable, nor do we narrate fictions; but we ourselves having been in Alexandria, saw the remains of the little cots at the Pharos still preserved, and having heard these things from the inhabitants, who had received them as part of their country's tradition, we now tell to you what you can also learn from others, and specially from those wise and esteemed men who have written of these things, Philo and Josephus, and many others. But if any of those who are wont to be forward in contradiction should say that these books do not belong to us, but to the Jews, and should assert that we in vain profess to have learnt our religion from them, let him know, as he may from those very things which are written in these books, that not to them, but to us, does the doctrine of them refer. That the books relating to our religion are to this day preserved among the Jews, has been a work of Divine Providence on our behalf; for lest, by producing them out of the Church, we should give occasion to those who wish to slander us to charge us with fraud, we demand that they be produced from the synagogue of the Jews, that from the very books still preserved among them it might clearly and evidently appear, that the laws which were written by holy men for instruction pertain to us.
Justin Martyr: 1[sup]st[/sup] Apology to Emperor Antoninus (Approx. 148 AD)
[sup]Chapter 31 [/sup]There were, then, among the Jews certain men who were prophets of God, through whom the prophetic Spirit published beforehand things that were to come to pass, ere ever they happened. And their prophecies, as they were spoken and when they were uttered, the kings who happened to be reigning among the Jews at the several times carefully preserved in their possession, when they had been arranged in books by the prophets themselves in their own Hebrew language. And when Ptolemy king of Egypt formed a library, and endeavored to collect the writings of all men, he heard also of these prophets, and sent to Herod, who was at that time king of the Jews, requesting that the books of the prophets be sent to him (this should read Eleazar the High Priest; not Herod – this was an error from a later translator). And Herod the king did indeed send them, written, as they were, in the foresaid Hebrew language. And when their contents were found to be unintelligible to the Egyptians, he again sent and requested that men be commissioned to translate them into the Greek language. And when this was done, the books remained with the Egyptians, where they are until now. They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, (Simon Bar Kokhba 135 AD) the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy. In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man's estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognized, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God. We find it also predicted that certain persons should be sent by Him into every nation to publish these things, and that rather among the Gentiles [than among the Jews] men should believe on Him. And He was predicted before He appeared, first 5000 years before, and again 3000, then 2000, then 1000, and yet again 800; for in the succession of generations prophets after prophets arose.
Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Approx. 150 AD)
[sup]Chapter 71 [/sup]"But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the translation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, king of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. And I wish you to observe, that they have altogether taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' (Isaiah 8:14) And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof."
Here Trypho remarked, "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely removed."
[sup]Chapter 72 [/sup]And I said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the Passover, they have taken away the following:
'And Esdras said to the people, This Passover is our Savior and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken forever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.' (This verse is lacking in all modern bibles).
And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following:
'I was like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.' (Jeremiah 11:19)
And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies of the Scriptures in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out:
'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.' (This verse was quoted also by Irenaeus, but is lacking in all modern bibles).
[sup]Chapter 73 [/sup]"And from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: 'From the wood.' For when the passage said, 'Tell you among the nations, the Lord has reigned from the wood,' they have left, 'Tell you among the nations, the Lord has reigned.' Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from the grave, declaring that there is none like Him among the gods of the nations: for they are idols of demons. But I shall repeat the whole Psalm to you, that you may perceive what has been said. It is thus:
'Sing unto the Lord a new song; sing unto the Lord, all the earth. Sing unto the Lord, and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. Confession and beauty are in His presence; holiness and magnificence are in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O you countries of the nations, bring to the Lord glory and honour, bring to the Lord glory in His name. Take sacrifices, and go into His courts; worship the Lord in His holy temple. Let the whole earth be moved before Him tell you among the nations, the Lord has reigned. For He has established the world, which shall not be moved; He shall judge the nations with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be glad; let the sea and its fullness shake. Let the fields and all therein be joyful. Let all the trees of the wood be glad before the Lord: for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.' "
Here Trypho remarked, "Whether or not the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible."
"Assuredly," said I, "it does seem incredible. For it is more horrible than the calf which they made, when satisfied with manna on the earth; or than the sacrifice of children to demons; or than the slaying of the prophets. But," said I, "you appear to me not to have heard the Scriptures which I said they had stolen away. For such as have been quoted are more than enough to prove the points in dispute, besides those which are retained by us, and shall yet be brought forward."
There will be more from other 2nd century authors to follow...
God Bless
Steve
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