The oldest Christian churches are not in Europe. You need to become educated on history before you pretend to be an expert.
Steve
The Seven Churches
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The oldest Christian churches are not in Europe. You need to become educated on history before you pretend to be an expert.
Steve
Ezek 47:12-13
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
(KJV)
The Ezekiel 47:12 verse above is about the many trees of Rev.22:2 (tree of life) that's for the healing of the nations after Christ's return. But why is that next verse describing the nation of Israel with their establishing of 12 tribes if Christ's future Kingdom has nothing to do with His chosen of Israel?
Ezek 37:16-28
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)
Obviously, our Heavenly Father has a much different view about the restoration of Israel than what others do.
Did Christ's Apostles like Paul agree with Scripture like the above which is yet future? Yes...
Rom 11:21-29
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)
Yet there are some within Christ's Body today that try to take away those gifts and calling of God which Paul spoke of.
You're joking, right? First ones to believe on Christ Jesus were in the holy lands of promise, then the Church in Jerusalem and then the Churches in Asia Minor and then later eastern and western Europe, and from there The Gospel went to the rest of the nations over all the world. The Roman Church with a papacy had only a small later hand in that, while trying to create a false historical ascendancy.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
(KJV)
The Ezekiel 47:12 verse above is about the many trees of Rev.22:2 (tree of life) that's for the healing of the nations after Christ's return. But why is that next verse describing the nation of Israel with their establishing of 12 tribes if Christ's future Kingdom has nothing to do with His chosen of Israel?
Ezek 37:16-28
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and My servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
(KJV)
Obviously, our Heavenly Father has a much different view about the restoration of Israel than what others do.
Did Christ's Apostles like Paul agree with Scripture like the above which is yet future? Yes...
Rom 11:21-29
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(KJV)
Yet there are some within Christ's Body today that try to take away those gifts and calling of God which Paul spoke of.
You're joking, right? First ones to believe on Christ Jesus were in the holy lands of promise, then the Church in Jerusalem and then the Churches in Asia Minor and then later eastern and western Europe, and from there The Gospel went to the rest of the nations over all the world. The Roman Church with a papacy had only a small later hand in that, while trying to create a false historical ascendancy.
You don't know what you are talking about. A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. I don't mind giving an answer for my own faith; but you just continually stalk my threads and contradict me with views that I consider heretical. White Supremecy is akin to Klu Klux Klan; the Gap Theory is pure science fiction; and all along you claim that orthodox views of Israel and the Church are to be replaced by the "10 lost tribes" migration, and that white western nations are the actual true Israel. You live in a fantasy!
I have already proven to you where the first church was established... in Edessa. This is a historically proven fact. You probably have not even checked on the information I previously posted because you keep trying to sell your 10 tribe white western supremacy dogmas. Prove to me that the first church was in Europe, and give me the date. If not, stop it with your nonsence, and stop stalking my threads.
Strange, since you didn't before deny that the first Church was established at Jerusalem, for you said...
And I revealed to you before that I don't use your ideas of 'institutiionalization' to determine the establishing of Christ's early Church.
As for your false attempts to categorize me as a white supremist, especially in light of my support for God's chosen of Israel, your's is the fantasy. All that kind of foolish rant is nothing but a vain attempt to attack my credibility in hopes to get the unlearned to listen to you.
Jerusalem was obviously the first church; Christianity began in Jerusalem. We are talking about the first church established outside of Jerusalem. The first church that you said was established in the white nations of the "True Israel". I would just prefer you keep your nonsense away from my posts. Start your own post; I promise I will not crash your party. You’re crashing in on every thread I start with your same ridiculous ideas. You are targeting me, and I think you are a stalker. People of your type of sect come to these forums and target people like spiritual assassins. You normally team up with another assassin and work in pairs until you eventually control the forums. This is what you leeches call missionary work.
Your weird beliefs:
The Gap Theory of angels once living on earth with the dinosaurs before man was created; and the True Israelites, who are actually the white nations... And, God did not create the world, He resurrected the world…. Am I wrong? Do you or do you not believe these ridiculous ideas? Explain clearly what you believe. Are you stalking me? Who else are you working here with?
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shabbat shalom, Steve.
Actually, the first church was established at Mt. Sinai:
Acts 7:35-38
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
KJV
Actually, the first church was established at Mt. Sinai:
Acts 7:35-38
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
KJV
Truly, even as Apostle Paul taught...
1 Cor 10:1-6
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
(KJV)
Hi Retrobyter,
I did not make my point clear enough to other readers, sorry... Veteran and I were speaking about the first ever "Church Building". We were discussing this on another post. Sorry for the confusion. The first church may have been in Mt Sinai, or Jerusalem, or somewhere else... The first Church Building occurred in Edessa. Veteran refuted this claim in support of his view that the church came through white western nations, because white western nations, in his view, are the true Israel. I asked for evidence of this claim that the first Church Building came from white western nations. So far, no evidence has come forward.
Steve
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Steve.
I believe you're correct; however, who really cares when the first church building was constructed? The "church" - the "ekkleesia" - is not the building but the "called-out" collection of people. Furthermore, we are not even talking about a "body" of people as an "entity" or a "corporation." We're just talking about a group of people, a COLLECTIIVE NOUN (or gerund, as it were). It is wrong to consider when the first "Christian" church was constructed since the word "Christian" is a diminutive of the word "Christ" used as a term of derision AGAINST the believers of the Way. Believers of the Way were originally referred to as the "justified' or more simply, the "just." They were also called "saints" or "sanctified," but "sanctification" means "to be made righteous" while "justification" means "to be DECLARED righteous," and the declaration from God's mouth must be made first! One SHOULD become "righteous" in deed; however, one must be DECLARED "righteous" BEFORE one can become "righteous."
Sometimes, people get the cart before the horse, so to speak, and think that someone has to be righteous first in order to be accepted by God, but that's not the way it works. A person must come to the end of himself or herself and realize that there's no good thing in him or her. Then, by humbly coming to God and asking for His mercy, God steps in and DECLARES that person "righteous" through the finished work of Calvary. Once that has been accomplished, THEN one has the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym - the Holy Spirit of God - within him or her and HE can make the change from within to help that person BECOME "righteous" in deed. Thus, although it is important to become righteous as well, the first step and the most important step is to be justified - to be declared righteous by God.
Some people make the error of calling this process "salvation," but "salvation" has a different meaning in prophecy. "Salvation" in prophecy is related to "Deliverance" or "Rescue" and is usually referring to the actual deliverance or rescue that Yeshua` will perform for His people, the Jews (Isra'elis), when He returns to fight for them at the Second Coming. This is the "salvation" to which the prophet Yo'el (Joel) referred in Joel 2:32 and was quoted in Romans 10:13. Therefore, technically, Paul was NOT talking about personal justification by God in Romans 10:13 but was talking about the national rescue of the Jews! Indeed, if one will read through the context of all three chapters, Romans 9-11, one will see that Paul was actually talking about his desire for his own countrymen to be justified by God so that they, too, might participate in the Resurrection and the Rescue of the Jews!
And, as Veteran just pointed out, this is nothing new! People were justified by God in the Tanakh (the OT) as much as they are today! The ONLY difference is that they didn't know at the time who the Messiah would be! However, the Rock and the sacrifices represented the Messiah - the Christ!
So, if someone thought he could be "good enough" (by keeping the Law, for instance) to be accepted by God back then, they were just as wrong as they are now! Iyov (Job) recognized this as did David! And, anyone of them could have discovered this for himself or herself simply by recounting the life of Avraham (Abraham) and the fact that the Law wasn't even in existence then, but Avraham believed God and it was COUNTED to him for righteousness! God DECLARED him righteous!
These are the matters of importance when it comes to reading these seven mini-letters to the ministers of each of these seven congregations in Turkey.
I believe you're correct; however, who really cares when the first church building was constructed? The "church" - the "ekkleesia" - is not the building but the "called-out" collection of people. Furthermore, we are not even talking about a "body" of people as an "entity" or a "corporation." We're just talking about a group of people, a COLLECTIIVE NOUN (or gerund, as it were). It is wrong to consider when the first "Christian" church was constructed since the word "Christian" is a diminutive of the word "Christ" used as a term of derision AGAINST the believers of the Way. Believers of the Way were originally referred to as the "justified' or more simply, the "just." They were also called "saints" or "sanctified," but "sanctification" means "to be made righteous" while "justification" means "to be DECLARED righteous," and the declaration from God's mouth must be made first! One SHOULD become "righteous" in deed; however, one must be DECLARED "righteous" BEFORE one can become "righteous."
Sometimes, people get the cart before the horse, so to speak, and think that someone has to be righteous first in order to be accepted by God, but that's not the way it works. A person must come to the end of himself or herself and realize that there's no good thing in him or her. Then, by humbly coming to God and asking for His mercy, God steps in and DECLARES that person "righteous" through the finished work of Calvary. Once that has been accomplished, THEN one has the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym - the Holy Spirit of God - within him or her and HE can make the change from within to help that person BECOME "righteous" in deed. Thus, although it is important to become righteous as well, the first step and the most important step is to be justified - to be declared righteous by God.
Some people make the error of calling this process "salvation," but "salvation" has a different meaning in prophecy. "Salvation" in prophecy is related to "Deliverance" or "Rescue" and is usually referring to the actual deliverance or rescue that Yeshua` will perform for His people, the Jews (Isra'elis), when He returns to fight for them at the Second Coming. This is the "salvation" to which the prophet Yo'el (Joel) referred in Joel 2:32 and was quoted in Romans 10:13. Therefore, technically, Paul was NOT talking about personal justification by God in Romans 10:13 but was talking about the national rescue of the Jews! Indeed, if one will read through the context of all three chapters, Romans 9-11, one will see that Paul was actually talking about his desire for his own countrymen to be justified by God so that they, too, might participate in the Resurrection and the Rescue of the Jews!
And, as Veteran just pointed out, this is nothing new! People were justified by God in the Tanakh (the OT) as much as they are today! The ONLY difference is that they didn't know at the time who the Messiah would be! However, the Rock and the sacrifices represented the Messiah - the Christ!
So, if someone thought he could be "good enough" (by keeping the Law, for instance) to be accepted by God back then, they were just as wrong as they are now! Iyov (Job) recognized this as did David! And, anyone of them could have discovered this for himself or herself simply by recounting the life of Avraham (Abraham) and the fact that the Law wasn't even in existence then, but Avraham believed God and it was COUNTED to him for righteousness! God DECLARED him righteous!
These are the matters of importance when it comes to reading these seven mini-letters to the ministers of each of these seven congregations in Turkey.
Hi, I don't think the subject is important; it was only brought up in reference to Veterans claim that the true church and the true Israel are the white nations. His evidence for this, in another post, was to claim that the first "Church Building" was constructed by white Europeans in England (who are the real Israelites)... You are coming into the conversation without knowing exactly what we are talking about.
If you would like to start a different conversation with me, your welcome to.
Steve
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