The Seven Seals / Chart 2/ The First Seal / The Anti-Christ
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Sorry, He has never spoken to me about this verse. But I take it for EXACTLY what it says, since it is agreement with Paul's rapture timing and John seeing the church in heaven in Rev. 7. It matches John 14, and several verses about His wrath. His bride will not need "testing," for she has passed all the tests.Trumpeter said:
That is like saying that salvation by faith was started by Martin Luther! How silly! Salvation by faith alone was in the bible from the days Paul wrote, but none of the common people knew it, for bibles had been kept from them.veteran said:
Sorry, that is a lame argument that is simply not true. Paul wrote of the pretrib rapture LONG before Darby was born. John saw the raptured church in heaven before he ever started the 7th week. These are simple facts and truths that you will never be able to overcome with false theories and accusations.
You write of people falling down under the power of the Holy Spirit....did you never read in Ezekiel how the Holy Spirit picked Him UP? Did you forget how the power of God knocked Paul off his horse? Be very careful what you say about these signs. You could be speaking against the Holy Spirit who saved you.
Lamad
I have the same problem. It gets worse every year! I think it's called ageJohn S said:
Amen Lamad,iamlamad said:
I don't know if you've seen this quote before about the rapture made by Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627) that pre-dates Darby by 1500 years?
The late Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.
This kind of throws a monkey wrench into the theory that the doctrine started in the 1800's.
It was clearly taught by the early Church.
Maranatha!
Amen, This is what I take it for also.iamlamad said:
The word "from" in this verse is in the Greek "ek", which means "out of".
God bless.
What does it matter when any false doctrine began! A false and deceitful doctrine is a false and deceitful doctrine regardless of who or when it began.Trumpeter said:I have the same problem. It gets worse every year! I think it's called age
Amen Lamad,
I don't know if you've seen this quote before about the rapture made by Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627) that pre-dates Darby by 1500 years?
The late Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.
This kind of throws a monkey wrench into the theory that the doctrine started in the 1800's.
It was clearly taught by the early Church.
Maranatha!
Amen, This is what I take it for also.
The word "from" in this verse is in the Greek "ek", which means "out of".
God bless.
Greetings Black sheep,BLACK SHEEP said:
It's a true doctrine that was clearly taught by the Apostles and the early Church as further evidenced by that quote.
It wasn't until they held the council around 400 AD and spiritualized everything in the Word that teaching disappeared.
God bless.
iamlamad said:
Oh, I'm sure those like yourself would love... to distance your Pre-Trib Rapture fly away belief as far away as you can from those so-called spiritual manifestations going on in some so-called churches today, but... you cannot do that, simply because that doctrine is recorded with starting in 1800's Britian by Christian historians, with the Edward Irving church being a mainstay of those same kind of manifestations in that era.
Like Apostle Paul said, God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all authentic Christian Churches (1 Cor.14:33).
Those manifestations are pointing directly... to seducing spirits within those churches, which are not really churches, but beth-avens (houses of vanity). Christ through His prophets and Apostles well warned Christian brethren about those things. Even in the synagogues during Jesus' first coming, evil spirits present there revealed themselves when Christ was there (Mark 1:23-26; Luke 4:33-35). That lesson exists as a warning to those in Christ to beware even in the setting of the Church meeting. Obviously those of the 1830's Edward Irving church didn't heed that lesson, just as some of today's so-called churches haven't either.
Two of the wildest manifestations by seducing spirits in those churches today is the rapid uncontrollable shaking of the head and body, and uncontrollable laughter.
ha ha! You never give up, do you? You are going to be SO embarrassed when you wake up and he bride is gone. You will have only youself to blame, for you have been warned. PAUL taught this doctrine and the early church NEW IT. Pretribbers know it too.BLACK SHEEP said:
Lamad
Well, once I went to pray with my pastor, for my brother had fallen into a coma. When I touched the doorknob of the church I KNEW I was going to laugh, but did not know how or when. The Pastor read the verse where the Pharisees commanded them to CEASE using the name of Jesus (after the man at the gate beautiful was healed). That verse started me laughing. It was laughter in the Holy Spirit. I have never laughed so hard in my life. I was ROFL when suddenly teh phone rang. My brother had suddenly come out of the coma! Hallelujah!veteran said:
Readers always know, where there are REAL MOVES of the Holy Spirit, the devil will come and try to put out the fire. HOW? By false signs. We don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, and we DON'T stop or prevent the Holy Spirit from moving. Most churches would not recognize the Holy Spirit - for it has been SO LONG since he was allowed to move there.
In one real Holy Spirit service I saw a woman so crippled up with arthritis, she could barely move any part of her body. She was in a wheel chair. The preacher told her he had just seen a mini-vision of him pointing to her and commanding her to dance. then I saw the preacher point at her and command her to stand up and dance. She moved very slow at first. It may have taken her a full minute to get out of the chair - but by the end of the next minute she was dancing like a teenager! it is GOOD to see God move. But most churches will not allow Him. What a shame.
NOTE WELL, in almost ever case where there is a genuine move of God, those that join in that movement get camped SO FIRMLY there they have missed every subsequent move. I have seen in over and over. You can keep you DEAD churches. I want a church were cripples are wheeled in and they walk out whole. If this does not happen in your church, I suggest you RUN FOR YOUR LIFE for it just may be YOU that needs a miracle next.
Lamad
Oh, I've laughed at false ones trying to stop me from speaking Christ Jesus' Name in public too, but my laughter was controlled, and to the point.iamlamad said:
My head didn't shake back and forth uncontrollably either!
I remember when someone on the forum said they though you were a young man. You replied that you were not young. I have to say that the "Ha Ha's" had me fooled!iamlamad said:
What disturbs me about you pre-trib fabricationist is that simply because we accept the Words of Christ who say's the gathering occurs at the end of tribulation, you guy's think people would be exempt from the harpazo because we believe the Words of Christ instead of the words of Thomas Ice and Lamad.
You're the one who is going to be embarrassed. The Word say's that you will be mocked at! This is the only place the word scoffers is used in the NT.
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
I know that when the world goes into tribulation and there's no one world government. No one world religion. And no global dictator....and your all still here...............I know the fabrications will continue.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ...And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The word elect...
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
You have perverted God's Word and changed the meaning of the word elect saying it means only Jews.
The devil has you right where he wants you.....perverting the words of Christ.
Lamad. If pretribulationism is taught in scripture then their must be at least one verse in the bible that say's Christ returns before the tribulation. Can you quote ONE verse for me?
I would spend a little time in prayer and study instead of chasing the latest movement.iamlamad said:
This story is about people that chased the real deal. But it didn't work out to well.
People that chase camp meetings remind me of these people, running from one manifestation to another, but never really understanding a thing.
24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
I've thought it over some more and I defiantly believe this story is about people that chase signs, miracles and wonders
“How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
The end result-->> look up
^^^^^^^^^^^ people preforming and believing all sorts of sillinessProphesy chasers aren't any different
But seek first the kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well
The book of Acts shows us what a local church should be like. Can you find one like it today? Did you not read 1 Cor.12? These gifts are for the church, then and today. I have seen these gifts in operation time and time again. It is a beautiful thing to see a crippled leg straightend instantly, or a deaf ear opened, or someone sent home to die, healed by God's healing anointing. I will NEVER attend a church that does not believe in these gifts. It is almost impossible to raise one's level of faith above the level of faith in the church he or she is attending. People die early because they are in a church that does not believe in these gifts. How much better, if a saint is attacked by a deadly disease, that the church they attend can believe WITH them for a miracle.Rex said:I would spend a little time in prayer and study instead of chasing the latest movement.
This story is about people that chased the real deal. But it didn't work out to well.
People that chase camp meetings remind me of these people, running from one manifestation to another, but never really understanding a thing.
24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
I've thought it over some more and I defiantly believe this story is about people that chase signs, miracles and wonders
“How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
The end result-->> look up
Prophesy chasers aren't any different
But seek first the kingdom and his righteousness and all these things will be given to you as well
Lamad
because we believe the Words of Christ instead of the words of Thomas Ice and Lamad.BLACK SHEEP said:
And that is your error: for Christ did not talk about the rapture. Think again, WHERE will Paul's gathering be? The dead in Christ rise, then those alive rise a picosecond later, and then they are gathered from the EARTH to the air, where Jesus is. Jesus' gathering is from HEAVEN. It simply does not fit Paul's rapture. Paul was the ONLY ONE who received revelation of the rapture of the church. you err also in not reading Dan. 9:24: “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city," Therefore, the emphasis on Rev. 8 through 16 (the 70th week of Daniel) is all about "your people" and "your holy city." So when Jesus was speaking of this same thing, the emphasis MUST BE THE SAME.
FOR WHO? It is for Daniel's people and for JERUSALEM. In the Olivet discourse, Jesus is is speaking of the 70th week, the last week of this verse in Daniel. It is for DANIEL, not for the Gentile church! It is GOOD to believe the words of Christ, but you must understand them as well as believe them.
I know that when the world goes into tribulation and there's no one world government. No one world religion. And no global dictator....and your all still here...............I know the fabrications will continue.
If I said I KNOW something, I would be very embarrassed if it was not scriptural. Did you never read?
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”...7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[d] tongue, and nation.8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, ...
Dan 7
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all other kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces.
Whether or not you believe it, this is going to be a WORLD kingdom. And the bride WON'T be here, for we believe in God's way of escape. You could too if you chose to.
you have perverted God's Word and changed the meaning of the word elect saying it means only Jews.
You have preverted God's Word saying this is Paul's rapture: a gathering from heaven!
And you ERRED in looking up elect in the New Testament. This time period is the last week of the OLD Covenant. (Remember, 70 weeks for DANIEL's people?) The door of the church age will CLOSE at the pretrib rapture. Th elect you looked up will be IN HEAVEN...that is some of them, those that BELIEVE in the pretrib rapture. The rest will be left behind to face the Beast. But, since you refuse to believe in the pretrib rapture, the door will SHUT, the world will revert back under the Old covenant and you will be left behind wondering what happened. Good luck then, for you will certainly NEED it, for God has said you will be OVERCOME.
- Isaiah 42:1
[ The Servant of the Lord ] “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
- Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.
- Isaiah 65:9
I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, And from Judah an heir of My mountains; My elect shall inherit it, And My servants shall dwell there.
- Isaiah 65:22
They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
The devil has you right where he wants you.....perverting the words of Christ.
I know there will be a gathering when Jesus comes on the white horse, but I also know it will NOT be Paul's pretrib rapture. Did you just forget to read 1 Thes. chapter 5, when Paul tells us WHEN his rapture will take place? Why is it you believe a gathering from HEAVEN can be Paul's rapture, when the rapture will gather from EARTH and it will be 7 plus years BEFORE Jesus' gathering?
they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Did you not read the parable of the sower, that when the word is not understood, it is STOLEN?
Lamad. If pretribulationism is taught in scripture then their must be at least one verse in the bible that say's Christ returns before the tribulation. Can you quote ONE verse for me?
Read and understand PAUL's rapture, 1 thes 4 & 5. Note that his rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. The Bride gets "salvation" (rapture) while the world gets SUDDEN DESTRUCTION (the day of the Lord.) Now look at the last verse in Rev. 6 to see WHEN that day begins.
Now note that John saw the church ALREADY RAPTURED in the next chapter.
Now, what is it in these verses that is so difficult for you to understand? Surely you understand that Jesus coming as told in Matt 24, is the SAME coming John shows us in Rev. 19. Let me count for you: 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19: so that is TWELVE CHAPTERS LATER when Jesus comes to gather together the elect of Matt. 24. These 12 chapters covers over 7 years of TIME. Since Paul is the ONLY WRITER of the New Testament that even wrote of the rapture, we cannot find anything about it anywhere else. Paul gave us two passages about it. So if you wish to know Paul's timing, there is only ONE PLACE to look: 1 thes. 5. Many writers of both the Old and the New have written about his coming in great glory on the white horse, as seen in Rev. 19, but ONLY PAUL has written about His coming in the air.
Summary: if you want to understand the timing of PAUL's rapture, you have ONLY 1 thes. 5 and Rev. 6 & 7 to go by. You cannot look anywhere else, for it is written NOWHERE else. However, there are hints. Read Matt. 27: "the earth did quake .... and the graves were opened." What is this verse telling us? It is telling us, when God resurrects the dead, it CAUSES an earthquake. Also note when the two witnesses rise, another mighty earthquake. Does it make sense then, that when the dead in Christ rise, it will cause a WORLDWIDE earthquke? (the dead in Christ are found around the world).
So start in Rev. 7, where this great crowd is seen in heaven, and WORK BACKWARDS until you find a great earthquake. That is the exact timing of Paul's pretrib rapture.
Now read what was told the church age martyrs under the alter at the 5th seal: they are told they must WAIT (what we are doing now) until the very last martyr is kill as they were killed - as CHURCH AGE MARTYRS. John could not have meant the manner of death, for they were put to death in so many different ways. No, John is telling us they must wait for the very last CHURCH AGE martyr, which will be at the pretrib raputure that ENDS the church age. (remember, the door is SHUT.) Now, what is the VERY NEXT even John writes of, after the 5th seal?
You cannot understand these things with preconceived glasses on. I hope you will take them off and pray for God to reveal to you what HIS MEANING was for these verses.
Lamad
I don't know of many churches that don't believe in miracles, but I know quite a few chase them.iamlamad said:
The example I gave of chasing miracles and the results
John 6:24-59
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