The Seven Seals / Chart 2/ The First Seal / The Anti-Christ
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The point that Enoch2010 is making is correct. In 1 Thess.4 Paul said that we alive who remain shall not precede (KJV "prevent") those alseep who have died in Christ.iamlamad said:
Paul also said there for us to not worrry about those who have died in Christ that sleep in Jesus, for He will bring them WITH Him when He comes.
Christ is coming from Heaven. That's where those who sleep in Him are, those who have died in Christ.
On the day of The Lord when Jesus returns to end this present world on the last generation, He will bring the asleep saints with Him, and His saints still alive on earth will be 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" like Paul also said in 1 Cor.15. Then BOTH groups are joined together to go to Jerusalem on earth where Christ is returning to per Acts 1 and Zech.14.
veteran said:
I just love... those fake tirades like, "that was 2000 years ago, we now live 1981 years later."
FAke tirades? Veteran, Jesus ascended in 32 AD or around there. There is nothing FAKE about it. Or do you imagine something different than what the word really says - as you usually do?
So our Lord Jesus began declaring to them the signs of the very end of this world, and the sign of His coming.
They ask Him about the signs of the end, but you have conveniently forgotten about the buildings of the temple and Jesus telling them that every stone would be torn down. That was what instigated their question. And that temple was torn down about 40 years later. What I really wonder is why you don't understand simple words - even when I pointed them out to you? Let's try again.
Mat. 24
6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
What do this simple words mean: the end it not yet?
What did "the end" mean to Jesus? In verse 15 He spoke of the abomination, so we can conclude "the end" was the 70th week of Daniel.
His meaning then, "the end is not yet," is very simple" HE HAS NOT YET ARRIVED AT THE 70TH WEEK IN HIS DISCOURSE. So what is before the 70th week? It is the age of Grace or the church age we are living in. So in very simple English our bibles are telling us that the verses 1-12 are speaking of events that will come BEFORE the 70th week. I understand this does not fit your theories; all I can suggest is you start over and form your doctrine from SCRIPTURE - not try to force scripture to fit your doctrine.
I will agree with you that some of Rev. 6 parallels these verses in Matthew 24. But that is all I can agree on, for your theories simple do not fit what the real truth behind these scripture is. I could spend a day here, but I doubt you would get it even them.
Rev 5: 6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Veteran, WHAT is this verse telling us? One moment before this entity had not been in the throne room, but suddenly He appeared. When John first saw into the throne room He was NOT THERE. When a search for one worthy ended in failure, HE WAS NOT THERE. When John first saw into the throne room, the Holy Spirit was there, but as soon as the Lamb as though it had been slain arrived, the Holy Spirit was sent down. You read that in this very verse. So what is the intent of the Author here? It is very simple: this was a vision into the PAST. John saw this vision perhaps around 95 AD. But the timing of this vision was the throne room BEFORE Jesus ascended and then the very moment He ascended. So the TIME as portrayed here is about 32 AD. I will guess that is the year Jesus ascended.
This time then, is the CONTEXT for the timing of the first seal. You will never find 2000 years hidden there between verses - for that was not the intent of the Author. Wake up and realize the first seals were broken as soon as Jesus ascended. That was God's purpose in showing John this vision of the past: it sets the TIMING of the seals.
The first seal was the CHURCH commanding to go out into all the world and make disciples of all nations. That would take conquering, for Satan was controlling all nations of the world.
The next three seals are to portray the attempts of Satan to STOP the advance of the church. But they were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the world. I would guess Europe, Middle East and Africa - THAT 1/4th. There is no hint of a time of waiting between seals until we get to the 5th seal, the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. We are right now between the 5th and 6th seal.
So all your theories are out the window. They do not fit the truth of the scriptures.
Just that right there puts all the signs in the final generation on earth that will see Christ's return.
And where are we now? We are in the church age. If you care to research as I did, there are many earthquakes around the world every month. I went back in time a month at a time, all the way to 1950. Before then there were NO earthquakes every month as there has been every since. I looked for quakes over 5. How interesting that was right after Israel became a nation. So in this part, I can agree with you: these signs of the end are for the final generation: US. But we are in the church age still,and will remain so until the pretrib rapture takes us out, and the Day of the Lord begins.
The 2nd Seal of Rev.6 is what Christ's words about wars and rumours of wars is about.
I agree. But this seal was broken around 32 AD. The first and second world war certainly fits into this horse and rider's job. The big questions is, when will it be the time of "peace and safety?" That remains to be seen. Although we in American have lived there for some time. Israel, however, has not.
Since Christ won't be yet, who do you think will bring in that time of "Peace and safety"? That's right, the false messiah, the final Antichrist that's to come prior to our Lord Jesus' coming.
The Pre-trib doctrinists purposefully forget... to tell their congregations about that time of "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned for the very end of this world just prior to Christ's second coming.
You make a good point here. But your timing is off. This peace and safety will come before the 70th week begins, because that is the timing of Paul's rapture.
This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
I agree, WE are that generation, and these signs are with us NOW...in the church age. But the earthquakes will continue on into the 70th week. So will wars. The man of sin will take out three countries in the first half of the week. So I cannot see total peace and safety then either.
Let's read that v.33 phrase again: "... when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."
By the time Jesus said this, the entire 70th week is ended with the 7th vial. The days of GT have ended. There is most definitely NOT peace and safety. People are scared spitless. They are nearly out of their mind with fear. The previous 7 years has taken the population of the world down from 7 billion to perhaps only millions. There is probably darkness everywhere. And even those that expect Jesus coming will not know WHEN. No one will know the day. In heaven the marriage and supper is taking place. Jesus is not going to rush that. The truth is, the rapture has already taken place by this time, about 7 years previous. The bride is in heaven at this time, with Jesus, at the wedding.
Further also, the 5th Seal about some of Christ's servants delivered up to councils and synagogues to give Christ's Testimony by The Holy Spirit at the very end prior to His coming has NOT happened yet today either.
Just remember ,Stephen is one of those in the fifth seal. They are CHURCH AGE martyrs. Certainly many have been added very recently, but we are still in the church age.
The first seal covered in Rev.6 is about the rider on a white horse conquering, an antitype of our Lord Jesus.
Sorry, your timing is almost 2000 years off. Your exegesis is way off. There is NOTHING evil written about this first rider. His horse is WHITE representing righteousness. HE is to represent the CHURCH sent out to make disciples. He was sent out on the day of Pentecost. you could not be further from the truth here.
But YOU claim Christ is coming PRIOR to the tribulation to gather His Church when God's Word says no such thing.
You have been blinded by preconceived glasses. You see a gathering at the end as the rapture, when it is clearly not. You see the seals as in our future, when the first 5 were broken as soon as Jesus ascended. Your timing on the first seal is almost 2000 years off. In fact, much of what you wrote here is only myth. May I suggest you clear the slate, and start over with no preconceived ideas or theories, and just let the word speak. Square pegs don't fit into round holes - but posttribbers try to hammer them in anyway.
Lamad
Sorry, you must take off those preconceived glasses. This is his quote:veteran said:
Righteous people have been dieing for the past 2000 years to join that great crowd that no man can number, the rapture hasn't created that crowd, death has.
In a small way he is right, in that many have died in Christ. But he ends saying the rapture did not create that crowd, death did. In that he is very wrong. That crowd without number is the raptured church, having just arrived in heaven.
You have forgotten all about John 14 and the mansions in heaven. And you have missed a very important point: The bride will be in heaven partaking in the wedding and supper before Jesus gets on His white horse to descend to earth. You and all other posttribbers will MISS this wedding. You will miss 7 + years in heaven also. You will miss your mansion.
Lamad
The level of deception among pre-tribbers will always amaze me.
May God help all the misguided pre-trib believers.
Lamad,
You are obsessed with pretribulationism and fabrication. You don't care about truth. You care about supporting a false teaching.
It takes just one verse to explain the rapture.
The words of Jesus.....
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days..... Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven......And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds.
Shame on all pretribulationist for perverting God's Word.
And to top it all off lamad you think the first seal is the gospel!
The gospel is never associated with a bow.
May God help all the misguided pre-trib believers.
Lamad,
You are obsessed with pretribulationism and fabrication. You don't care about truth. You care about supporting a false teaching.
It takes just one verse to explain the rapture.
The words of Jesus.....
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days..... Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven......And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds.
Shame on all pretribulationist for perverting God's Word.
And to top it all off lamad you think the first seal is the gospel!
The gospel is never associated with a bow.
Like Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who cannot be counseled cannot be helped."
God's Word as written is the counsel, and the Pre-Trib Rapture School has refrained from following it to their own destruction.
God's Word as written is the counsel, and the Pre-Trib Rapture School has refrained from following it to their own destruction.
And you think we are the ones missing it. WHERE are the bodies of the Dead in Christ? Where are the bodies of those alive an remaining? WE ARE ON THE EARTH. Your gathering is from heaven. WAKE UP and realize that is not the rapture of the church, but some other gathering. It will come 7 years after Paul's rapture gathering.BLACK SHEEP said:
You have assumed this gathering in Matthew was the rapture. It was God taking to Old Testament saints about the end of THEIR age. Do we call this 7 years PAUL's 70th week or DANIEL's 70th week? Is it for the church or is it for the Jews? You are as far off as East is from the West. This 7 years is to end the OLD COVENANT. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Bride of Christ.
The gospel IS associated with a bow; you just don't believe it. This rider does not ride with the others. They ride together and He rises alone. John used white 17 other times to represent righteousness. It is just pain silly to think John would use white to represent anything else.
Look, if you don't wish to take God's way of escape, why try to take as many with you as you can? Is that not exactly what the scribes and Pharisees were doing?
I am taking God's way of escape, and I am trying to teach others to take it to, for that is the will of the Lord. HE invented this escape. If your heart is hard, and don't wish to take His way of escape, fine, stay behind and lose your head. But DON'T teach others to lose their head!
Lamad
iamlamad said:
1Thes 4:13-15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede in the Greek) them which are asleep.
(KJV)
That's what he was talking about, a Scripture that you totally and completely... missed from 1 Thess.4, simply because you choose to listen to the liars of the Pre-Trib Rapture theory school.
Greetings veteran,veteran said:
Would you care to share with us how Jesus is going to bring the dead back if he hasn't picked them up yet?
God bless.
Wake up! Paul's "gathering" is the gathering of the Dead in Christ AFTER they have joined with their bodies and are gathering together WITH those alive and remaining. Your imagination runs wild, trying to force a square peg into a round hole. PAUL DID NOT MENTION any gathering going on in heaven - that is your imagination running wild, trying desperately to hold onto false doctrine. Paul begins with those asleep as they are on the way DOWN with Jesus. His is bringing them WITH Him. Sorry, but Paul's gathering is on earth and in the air above the earth. Lamadveteran said:
Might ought to try reading that 1 Thess.4 Scripture again then...iamlamad said:
1Thes 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
(KJV)
Christ bringing the asleep saints with Him is NOT about the saints on earth being caught up first and returning with Him. That is clearly shown in the below Scripture too...
1Thes 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)
There's a colon ":" before that last phrase of v.16 ": and the dead in Christ shall rise first." It goes with what Paul said in verse 15 that we alive on earth SHALL NOT PREVENT (precede in the Greek) them which are alseep.
Thus the asleep saints are with Christ FIRST, and He brings them with Him like v.14 says, when He descends.
THEN... the saints alive on earth are "caught up", in that order.
But what does the Pre-Trib Rapture theory of men teach instead???
It teaches that those who remain on earth are "caught up" to Heaven, to be WITH Christ and the asleep saints IN HEAVEN, for the whole period of the "great tribulation", 1260 days! And then after... the tribulation, all the saints... return FROM HEAVEN WITH JESUS back to the earth. That is NOT what Apostle Paul said there at all though.
And there's no sense in the Pre-Tribbers trying to modify their rapture timing either like in the Mid-point, for the original 1800's doctrine was the idea of a rapture of all the Church off the earth to Heaven, and then WAIT out the tribulation, and then return FROM HEAVEN with Jesus, back to the earth (like a bouncing rubber ball).
From Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus The Christ:
I am come, and am yet come, and have come already. I am amongst you in spirit, bestowing Truth... You of this world will not hear Me. You, who have heard Me, will hear Me again.
You shall be spared, for you had placed your full faith in the hands of My Father, and He has given you to Me. You shall share in My joy, which is The Father’s joy, He shares with you because of Me. You came from God by Me, and by Me shall you return to The Father and live in His house, where I had prepared a place for you from the beginning. YOU WILL BE TAKEN OUT OF this world, which has all together become liken to that Babylon, I will destroy in the hour of My God’s judgment. Many more will I take out after the elect have been lifted up... They will be martyrs. And yet, a remnant will remain who shall be hidden in the earth for a time, times and the dividing of time... To these, it is reserved to be taken through.
Everyone, who loves Me and will come to love Me, will come because of Me, for your places in eternity have been prepared, and forever shall you be with Me. Your places have always been, and were prepared by My death and resurrection, for no one may enter into My Father’s joy, except by Me...
Amen and amen.
Excerpt from:
Judgment Into Life
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Judgment_Into_Life
I am come, and am yet come, and have come already. I am amongst you in spirit, bestowing Truth... You of this world will not hear Me. You, who have heard Me, will hear Me again.
The Day is coming, the day is already here,
When the dead shall hear My voice and come forth.
And all you, who are alive and remain,
You shall also hear and come out, all together unified as one body,
Securely reunited in My body, in life and joy, forever and ever. Amen.
You shall be spared, for you had placed your full faith in the hands of My Father, and He has given you to Me. You shall share in My joy, which is The Father’s joy, He shares with you because of Me. You came from God by Me, and by Me shall you return to The Father and live in His house, where I had prepared a place for you from the beginning. YOU WILL BE TAKEN OUT OF this world, which has all together become liken to that Babylon, I will destroy in the hour of My God’s judgment. Many more will I take out after the elect have been lifted up... They will be martyrs. And yet, a remnant will remain who shall be hidden in the earth for a time, times and the dividing of time... To these, it is reserved to be taken through.
Everyone, who loves Me and will come to love Me, will come because of Me, for your places in eternity have been prepared, and forever shall you be with Me. Your places have always been, and were prepared by My death and resurrection, for no one may enter into My Father’s joy, except by Me...
I am Life Without End...
By My death, you have accepted, will you be as I am.
My body was broken for you, so you would not suffer judgment for your sin...
My body is without sin, in the same way you have become My body without sin...
YOU HAVE PASSED FROM JUDGMENT INTO LIFE!
Come and sing praises to The Lord in His tabernacle!...
Sing praises and give worship to The Holy One,
Who keeps all the promises, and brings them to pass, through Me.
Amen and amen.
Excerpt from:
Judgment Into Life
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Judgment_Into_Life
That is exactly what I said! OF COURSE the dead in Christ rise first. That is what is written. Here is what I wrote:veteran said:
"Paul's "gathering" is the gathering of the Dead in Christ AFTER they have joined with their bodies and are gathering together WITH those alive and remaining."
Note, "after they have joined with their bodies..." They are coming down with Jesus in SPIRIT form, for their bodies were buried. God is going to RAISE those same bodies as resurrection bodies. The spirits will join with the bodies. So you are still trying to put a square peg into a round hole. Paul's "gathering" is on the earth.
AFTER they are raised, then those alive are raised, and TOGETHER (almost a gathering in that one word) they fly up into the clouds. John 14 gives us the destination: we are going to he places He has prepared for us. NOT for 1260 days - we will be there for a little over 7 years, for the pretrib rapture, PAUL's rapture, will come as the trigger for the Day, and before the 70th week begins. This is what God means by being worthy to escape all these things (coming to earth.)
Did you never read Isaiah 26?
"Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain."
This is a perfect picture of Paul's rapture. It fits John 14. It fits the church as the great crowd no one could number in Rev.
Lamad
The antichrist will cause Israel to be divided to gain peace. When Egypt and Syria attack Israel the antichrist will be given a crown to go enforce the peace treaty.guysmith said:With the opening of the first seal we are introduced to a rider on a white horse.
Revelation 6: 1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
This rider represents the Anti-Christ, in possession of a bow, attempting to imitate Christ which rides a white horse but with a sword coming from His mouth.
Copyright by Guy Smith 1997 Fair Use For Educational and Discussion Purposes
In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Daniel 11:39-42a
39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he (666) shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him(666): and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt:
Greetings all,
Chapter 6 introduces the Tribulation hour upon the earth, a word of explanation is in order concerning the placement of signs. Some sincere Christians say, "Matthew 24:14 states that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come. Since there are some tribes who have not yet heard, Jesus Christ cannot return." Such people have their signs in the wrong place, because the rapture is a silent, timeless event. Let's investigate this statement further.
What relationship exists between the Rapture and prophetic signs? None. Are you shocked? The rapture is only an evacuation of believers before the great judgment of the tribulation hour. It is a meeting in the heavenlies and not Christ's return to the earth. Since His first coming was to earth, his second coming must also be to earth. The Rapture, then, is not a coming to earth, but a meeting in the clouds. Seven years later we will return with Him, and all the signs point to his coming when He returns to earth.
Watch the simplicity of this next statement unfold. Take two Bibles and place them side-by-side. Open one to the book of Revelation, Chapter 6, where the signs begin. Then open the other to Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 or Luke 21. Compare the signs in these chapters with those found in the book of Revelation. The inescapable conclusion? They are identical! The texts are practically the same. The church is Raptured in chapter 4, verse 1, and believers -represented by the 24 elders in verses 10 and 11- are placing crowns at the Saviour's feet before the signs and judgments of the tribulation our begin in Chapter 6 through 18. The signs, then, are post-Rapture and pre-Revelational. In other words, they are fulfilled after the Rapture and before the Revelation- after Christ calls His Saints home to heaven and before He returns with them to earth. Not one sign needs to be fulfilled prior to the Rapture, because all the signs point to the Revelation, or the revealing of Christ through the air. Thus, there is a period of seven years following the Rapture during which every sign can be adequately fulfilled. This of course is the tribulation hour after we Christians have been Raptured.
At this point every believer should praise the Lord, because the next statement is utterly fantastic. Since the signs point to Christ's return to earth, and since we believers return with Him, then the logical deduction is that all signs point to our return with Christ. Presently the signs are casting their shadows. They are all beginning to be fulfilled. The prophecies take place after we believers are gone and which indicate that we will return with Him are already beginning. If the signs indicate that we are coming back with Jesus soon, and we are still on earth, how very, very soon must the Rapture then occur to take us out of this earth so that, seven years later, we can return with Him!
God bless.
Chapter 6 introduces the Tribulation hour upon the earth, a word of explanation is in order concerning the placement of signs. Some sincere Christians say, "Matthew 24:14 states that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come. Since there are some tribes who have not yet heard, Jesus Christ cannot return." Such people have their signs in the wrong place, because the rapture is a silent, timeless event. Let's investigate this statement further.
What relationship exists between the Rapture and prophetic signs? None. Are you shocked? The rapture is only an evacuation of believers before the great judgment of the tribulation hour. It is a meeting in the heavenlies and not Christ's return to the earth. Since His first coming was to earth, his second coming must also be to earth. The Rapture, then, is not a coming to earth, but a meeting in the clouds. Seven years later we will return with Him, and all the signs point to his coming when He returns to earth.
Watch the simplicity of this next statement unfold. Take two Bibles and place them side-by-side. Open one to the book of Revelation, Chapter 6, where the signs begin. Then open the other to Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 17 or Luke 21. Compare the signs in these chapters with those found in the book of Revelation. The inescapable conclusion? They are identical! The texts are practically the same. The church is Raptured in chapter 4, verse 1, and believers -represented by the 24 elders in verses 10 and 11- are placing crowns at the Saviour's feet before the signs and judgments of the tribulation our begin in Chapter 6 through 18. The signs, then, are post-Rapture and pre-Revelational. In other words, they are fulfilled after the Rapture and before the Revelation- after Christ calls His Saints home to heaven and before He returns with them to earth. Not one sign needs to be fulfilled prior to the Rapture, because all the signs point to the Revelation, or the revealing of Christ through the air. Thus, there is a period of seven years following the Rapture during which every sign can be adequately fulfilled. This of course is the tribulation hour after we Christians have been Raptured.
At this point every believer should praise the Lord, because the next statement is utterly fantastic. Since the signs point to Christ's return to earth, and since we believers return with Him, then the logical deduction is that all signs point to our return with Christ. Presently the signs are casting their shadows. They are all beginning to be fulfilled. The prophecies take place after we believers are gone and which indicate that we will return with Him are already beginning. If the signs indicate that we are coming back with Jesus soon, and we are still on earth, how very, very soon must the Rapture then occur to take us out of this earth so that, seven years later, we can return with Him!
God bless.
So according to the Pre-Tribbers, they will be going on a vacation for 7 years and then they will be returning - Okey Dokey.
This is very good, except it is a myth that the rapture is found in Rev. 4:1. Go back and read it again - or better yet, find a 5th grader to read it - someone who has no preconceived ideas. He or she will say this passage is about JOHN begin called up.....for what purpose? To learn about future events. Would that be the purpose of the rapture? No, that is NOT the purpose of the rapture. So it is just poor exegesis to make this the rapture. People have chosen this verse, because they were desperate to find the rapture somewhere before the DAY and His wrath begins. Most pretribbers STILL don't understand the vision of the throne room. It is the context for the first seals, and must be understood to understand the seals.Trumpeter said:
If you study and meditate chapters 4 & 5, you will find John is seeing a vision of the past. John got to see the very moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. That would have been about 32 AD. Jesus went straight to the Father and took the scroll and began breaking the seals - in 32 AD.
For many years people have thought - incorrectly - that the seals were a part of the 70th week or the Day, but they are not. The first seal is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all the nations. The next three seals are the devil's feeble attempt to stop the church - but God limited their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. We can be SURE that 1/4 will be centered on Israel. If one reads closely, the three, the red, the black and the pale ride together, while the white rides alone. He is righteous, while the others are not.
It is at the fifth seal where we finally read of a long period of waiting. These are the church age martyrs. They are told they have a long wait - until the final martyr is killed in the same way they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. So what will END the church age? The pretrib rapture will END the church age. So the 5th seal is a hint of the timing of the rapture. It has not happened yet, as of the 5th seal, but is imminent.
Many will doubt, and say this does not agree with the Olivet discourse. But if you read closely there, Jesus said, "the end is not yet," meaning, He has not yet began talking of the end times. In fact, look for the first mention of the word END after "the END is not yet. It is in verse 13. Everything before verse 13 is speaking of church age things, the "beginning of sorrows." Also it is the beginning of the birth pains.
So where are we now? We are STILL WAITING for the last church age martyr. He or she will be coming very soon now. We are waiting for the rapture and then the earth will see the Sudden Destruction and the start of the Day of the Lord as seen in Rev. 6.
It was no mistake that John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7. They were raptured before the 6th seal and as the trigger for that seal. Make no mistake, we are waiting on the trumpet sound and shout from Jesus to be caught up. Saints, are you WATCHING for Him, or are you watching for something else first?
Lamad
Lamad, what does The Holy Spirit tell you about this verse?
Rev 3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
If you actually heed... what Apostle Paul taught, like in 2 Cor.5 that there is another type bodily existence, then you would know that those in Christ that have died are already in the heavenly, and not in the ground. Belief that 'we', our 'person', originates from material flesh matter is not a Biblical doctrine. It's a doctrine of deceived Jews.Trumpeter said:
And truly what's amazing about their reliance on flesh for existence, they can't fathom how the angels in heaven have a bodily existence without need of flesh material matter. Apparently, you must struggle with that too.
iamlamad said:
Yeah, like a bouncing rubber ball, a Superball even. (You guys probably don't remember the Superball though).John S said:
I do. I'll bet you also remember this song from the 60's - "Like a rubber ball I'll keep bouncing back to you".
Why would anyone in their right mind, after spending 7 years in Heaven, would want to return to Earth - even an Earth without Satan in it? In other words, God is nothing more than an innkeeper who kicks His visitors out of the inn after 7 years.
Who comes up with these ideas?
Why would anyone in their right mind, after spending 7 years in Heaven, would want to return to Earth - even an Earth without Satan in it? In other words, God is nothing more than an innkeeper who kicks His visitors out of the inn after 7 years.
Who comes up with these ideas?
Not sure I remember that song, I remember Red Rubber Ball though, could that be it?John S said:
The devil is behind the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine. It began in the 1800's in Britian, and Edward Irving's church had a lot to do with it gaining popularity. Some of the Christian scholars in Britain remarked about spiritual manifestations going on in the Irving church which sound similar to what's happenning in Charismatic churches today. Even John Darby made statements about the manifestations, and Margeret MacDonald who was on her deathbed which also sparked the movement, she herself wrote a letter after her experience, saying it felt 'evil'.
If you understand the latter part of Ezekiel 13, then it shows that doctrine would deceive many for the last days.
Apparently, lot of brethren today must not believe evil spirits and demons are real, because when they see a supernatural manifestation exhibiting in those kind of churches they immediately associate it with God doing a miracle. The laughing in The Spirit, falling backwards in the floor, making animal noises, and etc. manifestations taking over many of those charismatic churches today is a simple proof of that.
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