The song of Mary- an unorthodox perspective

[Waiting on him]

Matthew 1:24-25 KJV
24) Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Her virgin-born son, Jesus.

Much love!

So how is it he took her as his wife?

 

[Waiting on him]

Genesis 24:67 KJV
[67] And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

 

[Waiting on him]

I will admit, there could be a way of tooking, that I’m unaware of?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Actually, it's right there in the chapter:

Matthew 1:20 KJV
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Much love!

I do get some of the same questions you have Marks. But at the same time I am interested for this one reason…so many times I have read a passage countless times and then notice I’ve been implying something that is not there. It will change on me. Something so simple ..where I had been reading it one way but then…another way opens to where I’m like “how did I not notice that”?

 

[marks]

I do get some of the same questions you have Marks. But at the same time I am interested for this one reason…so many times I have read a passage countless times and then notice I’ve been implying something that is not there. It will change on me. Something so simple ..where I had been reading it one way but then…another way opens to where I’m like “how did I not notice that”?

Yeah, sometimes the wording can be a little ambiguous, words able to be understood two ways, things like that. This passage seems pretty clear to me. Like, he used ek and not dia, things like that.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

Actually, it's right there in the chapter:

Matthew 1:20 KJV
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Much love!

Like I've said---too much philosophizing.
J.

 

[Waiting on him]

Like I've said---too much philosophizing.
J.

In his defense, he did say in the opening statement that if you can’t stomach independent thought- you can just move on?

 

[Waiting on him]

I do get some of the same questions you have Marks. But at the same time I am interested for this one reason…so many times I have read a passage countless times and then notice I’ve been implying something that is not there. It will change on me. Something so simple ..where I had been reading it one way but then…another way opens to where I’m like “how did I not notice that”?

Ruth 4:13 KJV
[13] So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

 

[Mr E]

I do get some of the same questions you have Marks. But at the same time I am interested for this one reason…so many times I have read a passage countless times and then notice I’ve been implying something that is not there. It will change on me. Something so simple ..where I had been reading it one way but then…another way opens to where I’m like “how did I not notice that”?

Stick with it...

What @marks is pointing towards, without saying it-- @Waiting on him is saying without pointing to it.

The angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife. So when he awoke from his sleep he did what the angel told him to do.

He made her his wife. There is only one way, that happens.... at the ceremony, in the tent-- the union takes place, they come together and the marriage is consumated.

And from that day--- they didn't have marital relations again until after the baby was born.


There are even more details to consider, but if you'll permit me some poetic license I'd like to offer a small, intimate conversation that you might think romanticizes the situation. I hope it does, because it's a beautiful story. A lovely, love story that somehow religious people twisted into something awful for young Mary and her husband Joseph. It isn't awful at all. It's incredible without having to be unbelievable.

 

[Mr E]

It was a starlit evening and as they sat together outside and all alone and very much in love, they saw those stars glittering in one another's eyes. The wedding was approaching---

Joseph pulled back from their embrace to look at her beautiful face-
Mary, can I tell you something? Maybe it was just nervous jitters, maybe something else... but I had a dream and through the Holy Spirit I found you to be pregnant. -And since we had not yet come together, I had it in mind to set aside our wedding and end it with you right then and there, not to shame you or see you punished, but certainly never to take you as my wife. But then while I was thinking about all of this and what it might mean, I had a dream where an angel of the Lord came to me and told me not to be afraid to take you as my wife. That you would were going to have a son, and that we were to name him Jesus-- because he will save the people. The angel said that this would happen to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet (Isaiah).... "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel"-- (God with us).

She gasped---
My Lord, my God.... Joseph. I have to tell you about my dream.


Let's now look at the story through the eyes of Mary, as recorded in Luke.

 

[Waiting on him]

Stick with it...

What @marks is pointing towards, without saying it-- @Waiting on him is saying without pointing to it.

The angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife. So when he awoke from his sleep he did what the angel told him to do.

He made her his wife. There is only one way, that happens.... at the ceremony, in the tent-- the union takes place, they come together and the marriage is consumated.

And from that day--- they didn't have marital relations again until after the baby was born.


There are even more details to consider, but if you'll permit me some poetic license I'd like to offer a small, intimate conversation that you might think romanticizes the situation. I hope it does, because it's a beautiful story. A lovely, love story that somehow religious people twisted into something awful for young Mary and her husband Joseph. It isn't awful at all. It's incredible without having to be unbelievable.

@VictoryinJesus and I are sort of an oddity on here, you weren’t aware but I actually took her to be my wife about 39 years ago. We been sharing a tent for a long time.

 

[Mr E]

@VictoryinJesus and I are sort of an oddity on here, you weren’t aware but I actually took her to be my wife about 39 years ago. We been sharing a tent for a long time.

I hadn't made the connection. That's wonderful. It's like a movie about a couple watching a Hallmark movie about a couple in love.

 

[Waiting on him]

I hadn't made the connection. That's wonderful. It's like a movie about a couple watching a Hallmark movie about a couple in love.

Well I’m really enjoying your thread, and appreciate your time.

 

[Mr E]

I'll spare you the dramatization. Mary would have told Joseph about her own dream where the angel Gabriel had visited her and told her too, that she was going to get pregnant. -That she was favored by God and that the Lord was with her... which she didn't quite understand and it troubled her. Then the angel told her not to be afraid and that she was going to conceive and give birth to a son.

This part didn't confuse her. She knew what it meant to "conceive" a baby and she knew that she was a virgin and she'd never been with a man. "How will this be since I'm a virgin?" she asked. (Mary knew how babies were made).

The angel told her several things-- How this child would be conceived in spirit (spirit gives birth to spirit), that the child would be the promised messiah (that God would give him David's throne and he would rule as king over Jacob's descendants forever in a kingdom that would never end) and that he would be called the son of the Most High (God). -He also told her she was going to have a son and that she was to call him Jesus-- the same name that had been given to Joseph in his dream!

 

[Mr E]

He didn't tell her that it would happen before she and Joseph 'came together' nor did he tell her that it would happen without Joseph at all. He told her that the baby would be 'conceived' --not implanted, or artificially inseminated or any such nonsense. Conception happend through union between a man and a woman through sex. The same way babies are made today.

He told her by way of example that 'even her old relative who had been barren and childless her whole life was going to conceive a baby in her old age--- she of whom it was said she was unable to conceive would indeed. Does anyone think that Elizabeth had her baby without her husband Zechariah? Conceive means conceive.

So BOTH Mary and her husband Joseph were told directly in dreams by an angel that they were going to have a very special son--- the promised one through Isaiah as Joseph was told-- with the Holy Spirit coming upon her and the power of the Most High overshadowing her--- a son of David through his line and this boy would also be called the Son of God.

And Mary said--- Let it be.

 

[Mr E]

So the two star-crossed lovers share their dreams and start their life together as all Jewish marriages do-- sharing a tent as my two friends here likewise do. They wed. They consumate-- and just as the angel had told them-- the Holy Spirit was right there in their midst, hovering over them.

.....And in those days Mary-- with a secret of her own in her tummy from that very wedding night, she goes road-tripping to her relative Elizabeth's knowing already that Elizabeth too, has a secret to share.


Does scripture say anywhere that Mary and Joseph weren't already married at this point? Elizabeth was already six months pregnant when Mary waltz's and says hello--- and as the baby in her womb kicks Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and by that spirit proclaims LOUDLY--

Blessed are you among women and blessed is the child you will bear....

No fear. No shame. No guilt. No reproach. No need to move away. No need to confess. No punishment. Mary stays with her for the third trimester until Elizabeth's baby John is born. Mary would surely have been showing when she got back home to Joseph-- and they didn't have sex while she was pregnant--- would you have? Would you? After being told everything about this pregnancy that they had been told and knowing who and what this baby would be?

But wait! --you say. Mary and Joseph weren't married when they went to Bethlehem. No?

So Joseph DIDN'T get up and do what the angel told him? (Don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife). Scripture says he DID do what the angel commanded him. So which was it? What do you believe?

 

[Waiting on him]

So the two star-crossed lovers share their dreams and start their life together as all Jewish marriages do-- sharing a tent as my two friends here likewise do. They wed. They consumate-- and just as the angel had told them-- the Holy Spirit was right there in their midst, hovering over them.

.....And in those days Mary-- with a secret of her own in her tummy from that very wedding night, she goes road-tripping to her relative Elizabeth's knowing already that Elizabeth too, has a secret to share.


Does scripture say anywhere that Mary and Joseph weren't already married at this point? Elizabeth was already six months pregnant when Mary waltz's and says hello--- and as the baby in her womb kicks Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit and by that spirit proclaims LOUDLY--

Blessed are you among women and blessed is the child you will bear....

No fear. No shame. No guilt. No reproach. No need to move away. No need to confess. No punishment. Mary stays with her for the third trimester until Elizabeth's baby John is born. Mary would surely have been showing when she got back home to Joseph-- and they didn't have sex while she was pregnant--- would you have? Would you? After being told everything about this pregnancy that they had been told and knowing who and what this baby would be?

But wait! --you say. Mary and Joseph weren't married when they went to Bethlehem. No?

So Joseph DIDN'T get up and do what the angel told him? (Don't be afraid to take Mary as your wife). Scripture says he DID do what the angel commanded him. So which was it? What do you believe?

Well I just feel pretty stupid now. I knew for certain that Gods Spirit didn’t have sex with Mary and produce some type of Demi God. I assumed it was some type of scandal. I will take some time and research, could be I never took the opportunity to simply read the scripture without some type of conformational bias.

 

[Waiting on him]

I will say though Jesus was unique, in that he was the first born from above.

 

[Mr E]

Well-- Matthew says that he really did take her as his wife before all these other events. It says he did it right away-- when he awoke from his sleep he took her as his wife (which means they consumated) but didn't have marital relations until the baby was born (which means they abstained for nine months, three of which Mary was away).

So what about Luke saying of Joseph going to Bethlehem for the census requirements? He went to be registered with Mary, who was promised in marriage to him, and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

It could be so simple. Mary was for a time while they were engaged -WAS promised in marriage to him- but that wouldn't require registering with her. If they were not married already, Mary would register under her father's name and house. But since they were now married, she had to be registered with Joseph, pregnant or not. The "promised in marriage" was a promise that had been made between Joseph and Mary's father... or between Joseph's parents and Mary's parents-- Since she had been promised to Joseph, and given to him in marriage she had to be registered to his house as his wife, --she couldn't and wouldn't have stayed in Nazareth and been registered as part of her father's house.

Secondly-- when the baby Jesus was only 8 days old, Mary and Joseph have him circumcised. taken to Jerusalem for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses. Would this have been the case if Mary and Joseph were not married? Would it have been permitted for an unmarried couple to bring their newly born son into the temple for their purification rites and his circumcision? We know they did this, bringing two turtledoves for sacrifice since they couldn't afford the price of a lamb.

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a woman has conceived and borne a son, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Then she shall continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any holy thing nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed’ ” (Leviticus 12:1-4).

 

[Waiting on him]

Well-- Matthew says that he really did take her as his wife before all these other events. It says he did it right away-- when he awoke from his sleep he took her as his wife (which means they consumated) but didn't have marital relations until the baby was born (which means they abstained for nine months, three of which Mary was away).

So what about Luke saying of Joseph going to Bethlehem for the census requirements? He went to be registered with Mary, who was promised in marriage to him, and who was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

It could be so simple. Mary was for a time while they were engaged -WAS promised in marriage to him- but that wouldn't require registering with her. If they were not married already, Mary would register under her father's name and house. But since they were now married, she had to be registered with Joseph, pregnant or not. The "promised in marriage" was a promise that had been made between Joseph and Mary's father... or between Joseph's parents and Mary's parents-- Since she had been promised to Joseph, and given to him in marriage she had to be registered to his house as his wife, --she couldn't and wouldn't have stayed in Nazareth and been registered as part of her father's house.

Secondly-- when the baby Jesus was only 8 days old, Mary and Joseph have him circumcised. taken to Jerusalem for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses. Would this have been the case if Mary and Joseph were not married? Would it have been permitted for an unmarried couple to bring their newly born son into the temple for their purification rites and his circumcision? We know they did this, bringing two turtledoves for sacrifice since they couldn't afford the price of a lamb.

Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘If a woman has conceived and borne a son, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Then she shall continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any holy thing nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed’ ” (Leviticus 12:1-4).

I agree completely, but this way all of the Romanization is taken out. All the Greeks will never surrender!