The song of Mary- an unorthodox perspective

[Waiting on him]

I mean there has been a two thousand year old culture built around this.

 

[Mr E]

Ruth 4:13 KJV
[13] So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

Yes. That's how these things work. Nothing up my sleeve, nothing in my hat.... The old fashioned way is in fact, the way.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

sharing a tent

Oh you Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
To me, that speaks of "tent" as enlarging, expanding, outreaching expansion...to include or to encompass.

 

[Mr E]

I will say though Jesus was unique, in that he was the first born from above.

I'll revisit this along within the context of something I promised @VictoryinJesus I would come back to. This idea of the first born from above and the light.

Oh you Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
To me, that speaks of "tent" as enlarging, expanding, outreaching expansion...to include or to encompass.

Absolutely-- and he goes on....

For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said, “I will live in them and will walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

my husband asked me questions last night that were valid, l think. Concerning the passage in Isaiah about a virgin birth. so I read it again this morning. it is a lot. But maybe as much as it will surely take two posts if not more, be patient with me because to me it important to revisit that passage. Paraphrasing, one because it is too much. Second, what stands out to me in considering the questions my husband asked. Yes, maybe I come to the text with already conceived notions that cause bias. First question he asked me to consider was if, this speaks of Jesus then how can, the land forsakes her two kings? Meaning, I guess. it can only be historical spoken during those two kings. Before Christ (If I understand correctly.) After reading it though, to me it takes place over a span of a long ...expanse of what would and is and will take place. To me, it is more important what God reveals toward life application. For instance, in the OT...it is better to be of a humble spirit then to divide the spoil with the proud. I'm not implying I am humble. Only that God teaches and comforts, I think, instructing where it is better to stand.

Ask a sign
make it deep as sheol or high as heaven.
"I won't ask or test the LORD!"
Listen house of David!
Is it a slight thing to try the patience of men, that you will also try the patience of God as well?
Therefore, the LORD Himself will give you a sign.

Question: what is a "sign"? what I mean is for example the stars fall from the heaven and it will be dark. is this a sign?
She will call his name "Immanuel".

At the time he knows enough to refuse evil and choose good, He will eat curds and Honey.

Question. is curds? literal? or do "curds" mean something more like "Briars and thorns", more later on Briars and thorns.

Before the boy knows enough to refuse evil and to do good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

Question. my husband asked, "what kings"? I don't know. what "dread"? what "terror" of the Lord?
The Lord will bring on you, your people, and your house such days as have never been.
Makes me think of "tribulation as has never been and will never be again." (Forgetting all you past sins, bring this up because it has a cut off there in "past sins" that brings debate of what about the future ones? to me that same cut off is in "tribulation that has never been' "and will never be again"...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How does it then turn so symbolic?

In that day the LORD will whistle for the fly in the furthest part of the rivers of Egypt.
And for the bee that is in the Land of Assyria.
They come and settle on the steep ravines, on the ledges of cliffs, and the thorn bushes, on the watering places.

what "watering places'

In that day the LORD will shave with a razor, hired. The head and the hair of the legs, and also the beard...he will shave.

Who? will shave ...he who is hired? makes me think of the difference between and son and one who is hired and forsakes the sheep for he is hired. surely, there isn't a literal razor. nor hair falling from heads and legs.

For the abundance of milk ...he will eat curds, for everyone will eat curds and honey.

"For he was tempted even as we are tempted"? what are "curds"?

Where the vines used to be, valued at a thousand shekels of silver, will become briars and thorns.
Because before the boy knows how to cry out "my father" or "my mother" the spoil will be carried away.

The Lord spoke again. These people have rejected the gently flowing waters.
The LORD is about to bring on them the strong and abundant waters of the river.

When did this happen?

It will rise up and go over the banks,
It will sweep
overflow
pass through
reaching even the neck
and the spread of its winds will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.

people will come with bows and arrows because all the land will be briars and thorns.
the hills which used to be cultivated, will not go there for fear of briars and thorns.
but they will become a place to trample.

Take yourself a large tablet and write on it ordinary letters: swift is the booty; speedy is the prey.
And I will take to Myself faithful witnesses for testimony.
So i approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son.
The LORD said name him "swift is booty, speedy is prey."

 

[Mr E]

Ask a sign

Question: what is a "sign"?

A sign is exactly what you know it to be. It’s evidence of something. An indicator of something. Something pointing to something else, to draw your attention. To make you aware.

Here’s a ‘concrete’ example I was given.



It won’t make sense to you because it wasn’t for you. It was for me. It points to something important and meaningful to me. In a dream if I’m told to mix mortar, I mix mortar. If I’m told to carry bricks, I do it. Or to pull weeds— I pull weeds. All this in spirit, and it may or may not directly associate to any of the things I do physically on earth. Dreams are different. I don’t make an effort to recreate things shown in spirit. I don’t go about digging footings and placing three double rows of reinforcing rod to shore things up just because I was shown a blueprint for that in a dream.

Yet I was given this sign.


If you want to understand the sign that King Ahaz was given in Is 7– read 2 Kings 16 and 2 Chron 28.

 

[Mr E]

How does it then turn so symbolic?

I’m sorry- I answered before you asked. How? Why?

 

[marks]

Stick with it...

What @marks is pointing towards, without saying it-- @Waiting on him is saying without pointing to it.

The angel told Joseph to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife. So when he awoke from his sleep he did what the angel told him to do.

He made her his wife. There is only one way, that happens.... at the ceremony, in the tent-- the union takes place, they come together and the marriage is consumated.

And from that day--- they didn't have marital relations again until after the baby was born.


There are even more details to consider, but if you'll permit me some poetic license I'd like to offer a small, intimate conversation that you might think romanticizes the situation. I hope it does, because it's a beautiful story. A lovely, love story that somehow religious people twisted into something awful for young Mary and her husband Joseph. It isn't awful at all. It's incredible without having to be unbelievable.

You seem to be skipping over the parts that refute your story. Why do you have a problem with what the Bible says happened?

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

A sign is exactly what you know it to be. It’s evidence of something. An indicator of something. Something pointing to something else, to draw your attention. To make you aware.

Here’s a ‘concrete’ example I was given.

View attachment 30652

It won’t make sense to you because it wasn’t for you. It was for me. It points to something important and meaningful to me. In a dream if I’m told to mix mortar, I mix mortar. If I’m told to carry bricks, I do it. Or to pull weeds— I pull weeds. All this in spirit, and it may or may not directly associate to any of the things I do physically on earth. Dreams are different. I don’t make an effort to recreate things shown in spirit. I don’t go about digging footings and placing three double rows of reinforcing rod to shore things up just because I was shown a blueprint for that in a dream.

Yet I was given this sign.


If you want to understand the sign that King Ahaz was given in Is 7– read 2 Kings 16 and 2 Chron 28.

I had a dream once and it was weird. There was a wheel I couldn't see but hear the sound of it only moving through the streets of Jerusalem ( a literal city), the wheel was driving people out of it…like a loud turning warning. There was a flood and Jerusalem was under water as the rush of this flood filled streets and paths and corners til Jerusalem was submerged under water. I wrote it off as imaginary. Do you have weird dreams?

 

[Mr E]

Do you have weird dreams?

I have a whole thread about it.

Post your dreams here

If I tell you a story, but don't mention at all that the telling of the story is actually the telling of a dream, would you know? I mean unless I specifically tell you it's a dream, or unless I tell you I was soaring through the heavens on the back of a winged horse or something of that nature...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Mr E]

You seem to be skipping over the parts that refute your story. Why do you have a problem with what the Bible says happened?

Much love!

You’ll have to be more specific Brother.

 

[marks]

You’ll have to be more specific Brother.

Read my posts. I've already been specific.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Take yourself a large tablet and write on it ordinary letters: swift is the booty; speedy is the prey.
And I will take to Myself faithful witnesses for testimony.
So i approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son.
The LORD said name him "swift is booty, speedy is prey."

"ordinary" stands out there to me. "Take yourself a large tablet and write on it ordinary letters...reminds me of Luke 1:63 Zechariah asked for a tablet and wrote "His name is John."

But "ordinary" also reminds me of Christ being given a body. and the term "ordinary". write ordinary letters on the tablet. also reminds me of the writing on Jesus; he suffered as we all suffer, there being a "commonality" there in regard to temptation. Nothing has come on us that is not "common" "ordinary" to all men. Is a "commonality" akin to "ordinary" ? Just contemplating what ordinary writing is. "with men's pen"

Last of what I've read this morning from Isaiah concerning "She will conceive and give birth."

Break O peoples
be shattered.
give ear, all remote places of the earth.
Gird yourselves yet be shattered.
Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; stake a proposal but it will not stand,
For God is with us (Immanuel)

God Spoke with Mighty Power (Through the Son?)
He instructed me not to walk in the way of this people,
Be not afraid of terror,
or be in dread of it.
It is the LORD your God that you should fear.

THEN He shall become a sanctuary.
But both houses of Israel.
A stone to strike
and a rock to stumble over,
and a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Many will stumble and fall, be broken, snared and caught.

I will wait on the LORD who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob.
I will look eagerly for him.
"I and the children” whom the LORD has given are for "signs and wonders."
From the LORD. If they don't speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
Makes me consider: If any hate their brother ...they walk in darkness still and stumble, having no light (dawn)in them.

They pass through hard pressed, famished, when they are hungry. They will be enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward. They will look to the earth and see distress and darkness, and gloom, and anguish, and they will be driven away to darkness.

(from Luke) There shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Look up, lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near.

(Isaiah again) But there will be no more anguish.
But she will make the earth glorious.

The Gentiles.
Those who walk in darkness will see a great light, a light will shine upon those sitting in darkness.

finished reading as far as i could. does it answer anything for me who is right about a virgin birth. not really. Does it help with instructions? I think so. Does it help with the prophetic nature of the word of God...again I think so.

 

[Waiting on him]

Read my posts. I've already been specific.

Much love!

Were you able to work out how it was that Joseph did as the the Angel said and took Mary to be his wife? Just the statement alone from the Angel implies there was something yet remaining that Mary and Joseph had yet to do to be instituted into marriage in the eyes of God?

 

[Waiting on him]

Yes. That's how these things work. Nothing up my sleeve, nothing in my hat.... The old fashioned way is in fact, the way.

To me it seems the only record I can find of a wedding ceremony is in the New Testament. It appears that Old Testament as well as New Testament upon consummation it was a done deal. In the eyes of God anyway. Maybe not in the eyes of man?

 

[Mr E]

To me it seems the only record I can find of a wedding ceremony is in the New Testament. It appears that Old Testament as well as New Testament upon consummation it was a done deal. In the eyes of God anyway. Maybe not in the eyes of man?

If marriage was a simple contract a handshake could take care of business, but it’s more than that. It’s a union. And you don’t seal the deal any way but one. Apart from that the deal isn’t a done deal, there is no consummation and the couple is not married.

When it says Joseph took her as his wife- that was the act. No bones about it.

She was a virgin. Had never been with a man. Then Joseph takes her as his wife and Gos is right there in this act of holy matrimony where the holy one is conceived with the Holy Spirit hovering over them—- for Mary and Joseph it really was Immanuel— God with us in the wedding booth. And she is seeded by Joseph and becomes his wife. He ‘takes her’ as his wife and he trusts and she trusts that the words of the Angel were true, that this one act would bring forth the child who would one day be the anointed one. And with this confidence they abstain from their right to marital relations until after Jesus is born.

How do others propose that he takes her as his wife? High five? Fist Bump? Little Chapel in Las Vegas with an Elvis Preacher? Justice of the Peace?

How?

 

[Mr E]

To me it seems the only record I can find of a wedding ceremony is in the New Testament. It appears that Old Testament as well as New Testament upon consummation it was a done deal. In the eyes of God anyway. Maybe not in the eyes of man?

Here’s a link to an interesting discussion surrounding the importance of consummating the marriage- as part of the ceremony. It ties back to Levitical law.

Is the Bible wrong about virgins? Deuteronomy 22:13-21

So before engaging in this conversation I ask that you use wisdom. To use wisdom means to read the whole post and then respond by either agreeing, by asking clarifying questions, by disagreeing by countering my points or either by further elaborating on the story. Trigger warning for the...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Mr E]

To me it seems the only record I can find of a wedding ceremony is in the New Testament. It appears that Old Testament as well as New Testament upon consummation it was a done deal. In the eyes of God anyway. Maybe not in the eyes of man?

Here's a verse that cements the association-- Heb 13:4 - the word for the marriage bed is the same word used for sexual intercourse, conception (the male sperm). There's no confusion about what a wedding ceremony includes when one takes a wife.

Marriage must be honored among all and the marriage bed kept undefiled...

 

[Johann]

Here's a verse that cements the association-- Heb 13:4 - the word for the marriage bed is the same word used for sexual intercourse, conception (the male sperm). There's no confusion about what a wedding ceremony includes when one takes a wife.

Marriage must be honored among all and the marriage bed kept undefiled...

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


before they came together; that is, before they cohabited together as man and wife, before he brought her home to his own house and bed. The espousals were before they thus came together. It was usual with the Jews first to espouse or betroth, and then to marry, or rather consummate the marriage, by bringing the woman home to her husband's house, between which there was some space of time.

The account and manner of betrothing is given by Maimonides (y) in the following words.

"Before the giving of the law, if a man met a woman in the street, if he would, he might take her, and bring her into his house and marry her between him and herself, and she became his wife; but when the law was given, the Israelites were commanded, that if a man would take a woman he should obtain her before witnesses, and after that she should be his wife, according to Deu_22:13 and these takings are an affirmative command of the law, and are called או אירוסין קידושין "espousals" or "betrothings" in every place; and a woman who is obtained in such a way is called או מאורסת מקודשת "espoused" or "betrothed"; and when a woman is obtained, and becomes מקודשת "espoused", although she is not yet נבעלה "married, nor has entered into her husband's house", yet she is a man's wife.''
And such a distinction between a married woman and a betrothed virgin, which was Mary's case, may be observed in Deu_22:22 moreover, her being found or appearing to be with child, was "before they came together"; which it is likely, as Dr. Lightfoot (z) observes, was about three months from her conception, when she was returned from her cousin Elizabeth. It is probable that as soon as she was espoused to Joseph, or quickly after, she went and paid her visit to Elizabeth, with whom she stayed about three months, and then returned home, Luk_1:56. Upon her return home, she appears to be with child, with which she had gone three months, a proper time for the discovery of such a matter, Gen_38:24 and which is assigned by the Jewish doctors for this purpose. In the Misna (a) such a case as this is put,

"If two men should espouse two women, and at the time of their entrance into the bride chamber, the one should be taken for the other--they separate them for three months, because they may prove with child;''
that is, as Bartenora observes upon it,


"they separate them that they may not return to their husbands; and that if they should be with child, they may distinguish between a legitimate and an illegitimate offspring; and that the children which they may bring forth may not be ascribed to the wrong persons.''
Now Mary being gone three months from the time of her espousals to Joseph, and he and she not being yet come together, it was a clear case, that the child she was gone three months with, was none of his; hence it follows,
(y) Hilchot. Ishot. c. 1. sect. 1, 2, 3. (z) In loc. (a) Yebamot, c. 3. sect. 10.

You deny the virgin birth of Jesus--just remember--"before they yada together"

Here's your problem--you don't believe in the Deity of Yeshua.
Of the Holy Ghost (ek pneumatos hagiou). The discovery that Mary was pregnant was inevitable and it is plain that she had not told Joseph. She “was found with child” (heurethē en gastri echousa).

This way of putting it, the usual Greek idiom, plainly shows that it was the discovery that shocked Joseph. He did not as yet know what Matthew plainly asserts that the Holy Ghost, not Joseph and not any man, was responsible for the pregnancy of Mary.

The problem of the Virgin Birth of Jesus has been a disturbing fact to some through all the ages and is today to those who do not believe in the pre-existence of Christ, the Son of God, before his Incarnation on earth. This is the primal fact about the Birth of Christ.

The Incarnation of Christ is clearly stated by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:5-11; and involved in Col_1:15-19) and by John (Joh_1:14; Joh_17:5).


If one frankly admits the actual pre-existence of Christ and the real Incarnation, he has taken the longest and most difficult step in the matter of the supernatural Birth of Christ.

That being true, no merely human birth without the supernatural element can possibly explain the facts. Incarnation is far more than the Indwelling of God by the Holy Spirit in the human heart. To admit real incarnation and also full human birth, both father and mother, creates a greater difficulty than to admit the Virgin Birth of Jesus begotten by the Holy Spirit, as Matthew here says, and born of the Virgin Mary.

It is true that only Matthew and Luke tell the story of the supernatural birth of Jesus, though Joh_1:14 seems to refer to it. Mark has nothing whatever concerning the birth and childhood of Jesus and so cannot be used as a witness on the subject. Both Matthew and Luke present the birth of Jesus as not according to ordinary human birth. Jesus had no human father. There is such a thing in nature as parthenogenesis in the lower orders of life. But that scientific fact has no bearing here.


We see here God sending his Son into the world to be the world’s Saviour and he gave him a human mother, but not a human father so that Jesus Christ is both Son of God and Son of Man, the God Man. Matthew tells the story of the birth of Jesus from the standpoint of Joseph as Luke gives it from the standpoint of Mary. The two narratives harmonize with each other.

One credits these most wonderful of all birth narratives according as he believes in the love and power of Almighty God to do what he wills. There is no miracle with God who has all power and all knowledge. The laws of nature are simply the expression of God’s will, but he has not revealed all his will in the laws that we discover. God is Spirit. He is Person. He holds in his own power all life. Joh_3:16 is called the Little Gospel because it puts briefly the love of God for men in sending his own Son to live and die for us.

So much for your "x' and "y" chromosomes--you deny that Jesus is God and if I should ask you directly--you would probably concur that Christ was a created being.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]