The 'spirit' that goes back to God, what is it?

[Hobie]

We have seen that man does not have a 'immortal' soul as scripture makes that clear..

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Genesis 3:19 - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

But what about the “spirit”? Does it remain conscious even after the death of the body as many believe so, and they even try to justify their view by saying it look at Ecclesiastes 12:7 which says it goes up to God so it must be living or immortal part of us.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Well the problem is this statement does not suggest that the spirit of the dead remains conscious in God’s presence or that man is immortal. What Ecclesiastes 12:7 refers to in death is the reversal of the creation process where God gave the breath of life and man came alive.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So what is the 'spirit' that returns to God, is it living entity and floating on the clouds looking back down on earth. Well, there's a problem if one looks closely, it does not differentiate between the good people or the wicked, so essentially it opens the door to sinners going to heaven, and clearly that doesnt happen. So what is the 'spirit', it is the breath of life that God breathed into the nostrils of Adam, and that He has also provided to all other human beings is what returns to God or, in other words, simply stops flowing into and through them. In ancient times, all man knew was if you stopped breathing you were dead, and this was considered given of God as how could you explain what amazes us even today when people revive after drowning or other shock.

Now another thing is that its not just human beings that die this way but all the animals, and no one is going to say all the animals are taken to heaven, thats not supported in scripture. If the alleged spirits of all who die survive as conscious entities in the presence of God, then are the spirits of the wicked with God, of course not. This is not in harmony with the overall teaching of the scriptures, as only the saints will be there, not sinners. Because the same dying process happens both to human beings and to animals death is nothing else than ceasing to exist as living beings.

But what about Steven when he died some may say, what does that mean..
Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Well as we see, the body plus the breath of life produced a living soul. The word for "breath" in Genesis 2:7 is neshamah in the Hebrew original and pnoe in the Greek translation and the words mean "breath, wind." The breath that God breathed into the inanimate body gave it life and we see this same breath of life is spoken of in Job 33:4, "The spirit [ruach] of God has made me, and the breath [neshamah] of the Almighty gives me life." The breath of life (neshamah) is, therefore, the spirit (ruach) that God breathed into Adam's nostrils. The word ruach means "breath, spirit, wind."

We see this more in Job. 27:3 when Job in referring to himself during life says, ". . . as long as my breath [neshamah] is in me and the spirit [ruach] of God is in my nostrils. . . ." (Job. 27:3). Once again the "breath" and the "spirit" are identified. When this spirit or breath returns to God the individual dies and awaits God to restore life at the resurrection. We see the same thought Psalms 146:4 when David described what happens to man in death that when their breath [ruach = spirit] departs, they return to the earth or the grave and on 'that very day their thoughts perish.
Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

So no thoughts or what makes one who he is continue. Now compare the description of death as given in Ecclesiastes 12:7: "Then shall the dust [body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [ruach = breath] shall return unto God who gave it" . This simply reverses the process as described in Genesis 2:7. So now we see God takes the life force back to himself and the dead body disintegrates. The "spirit" or "breath" that goes back to God is not some kind of conscious part of us that separates from the body at death, it simply is what animates us, same as the beasts in the field. Look what it has in Ecclesiates 3:19-20, "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [ruach = spirit]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast [in this respect]: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

So lets take a look at one more verse, which was when Christ died, and go over it...
Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Now did Christ go up to the Father that day, lets look and from what He declared..
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus and Stephen were committing their "spirit" or life force to God. They knew that they were about to die or dying. The life that came from God was being taken from them. The day Jesus died His human "spirit," "breath," or life force went back to God, but He certainly did not go to heaven as a conscious being that Friday afternoon, and all Christians should believe in His resurrection. Also, Stephen did not ascend to heaven when the life force was taken from him, and he will wait in the grave as dust until the saints are raised at the resurrection.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Three but one=God is father,Son and Holy Spirit and man is three but one= man is body, soul and spirit.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We have seen that man does not have a 'immortal' soul as scripture makes that clear..

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Yes, the soul shall die. But we should not make that sound as if the "soul" as an entity separate from the body will be annihilated. What the statement is really saying is that the *person* shall die when his body ceases to function alive.

To treat the soul as separate from the body that will die misses the point. The death of a soul indicates its intimate connection to the body such that when the soul dies it simply means it will lose its connection to the body--not that it will itself be extinguished as a separate entity.

But what about the “spirit”? Does it remain conscious even after the death of the body as many believe so, and they even try to justify their view by saying it look at Ecclesiastes 12:7 which says it goes up to God so it must be living or immortal part of us.

The word "immortal" is fraught with misunderstanding. "Immortality" in the Bible typically refers to the final eternal physical state of the believer. It is when the soul is reconnected with his body, the body having become a new immortal body, ie one that cannot die.

The spirit of a man, once it has become a man, or joined to a body, is at that point called a "soul." It is a spirit now defined by having been joined to a particular body, indicating a specific, particular person.

And yes, the spirit can then become separated from the body without losing its identity as a "soul." It is simply destined to be returned to a body, since that is how God made the spirit of a man, as an eternal soul.

Since I've shared this already elsewhere, I won't overstate how I see this.

 

[Hobie]

Yes, the soul shall die. But we should not make that sound as if the "soul" as an entity separate from the body will be annihilated. What the statement is really saying is that the *person* shall die when his body ceases to function alive.

To treat the soul as separate from the body that will die misses the point. The death of a soul indicates its intimate connection to the body such that when the soul dies it simply means it will lose its connection to the body--not that it will itself be extinguished as a separate entity.

The word "immortal" is fraught with misunderstanding. "Immortality" in the Bible typically refers to the final eternal physical state of the believer. It is when the soul is reconnected with his body, the body having become a new immortal body, ie one that cannot die.

The spirit of a man, once it has become a man, or joined to a body, is at that point called a "soul." It is a spirit now defined by having been joined to a particular body, indicating a specific, particular person.

And yes, the spirit can then become separated from the body without losing its identity as a "soul." It is simply destined to be returned to a body, since that is how God made the spirit of a man, as an eternal soul.

Since I've shared this already elsewhere, I won't overstate how I see this.

No, that is the second death, as Christ is the resurrection and the life, and can bring man up from the first death that all must suffer unless they live at the end. Christ said this if you look closely...

Luke 20:35-36
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Notice the question in verse 33, 'Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.' It was not at death but when they are raised up at the end, then we 'Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God'.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, that is the second death, as Christ is the resurrection and the life, and can bring man up from the first death that all must suffer unless they live at the end. Christ said this if you look closely...

I described the death of the soul as the separation of the body from a person's spirit, or soul. How is that the "2nd death?" Everybody I have ever known, who have died, did *not* go through the "2nd Death." Rather, they died for the "1st time!"

Your sense that the soul itself dies, separate from their physical death, has no basis in fact or Scripture. The putting off of the body from a person's spirit is, in fact, the "death of the soul." It is a person's death!

The "death of the soul" does not mean the death of a person's spirit. Rather, it means the soul loses its body, temporarily, which is then called the "death of a person," or the "death of a soul, or human being."

The "soul" is simply representing a human being as a spirit who is designed to live in a body, but who when it loses the body is said to have "died." The "soul" died is another word for "the person died." It has nothing whatsoever to do with the "spirit" itself dying, separate from the body. The annihilation of the soul, or the spirit of a person, is *not* taught in Scriptures!

 

[Davy]

The OP is simply stuck on old Jewish traditions of the 'dead in the ground' theory they base on the 'living soul' idea of Genesis 2:7. They don't heed The New Testament Scripture which make it very plain what happens to our spirit with soul when our flesh dies (2 Corinthians 5; 1 Corinthians 15; Matthew 10:28, etc.)

The orthodox Jews especially believe that when our flesh body dies, our soul dies with our flesh and both sleep in the casket awaiting the resurrection. And then that same flesh with soul that's dead in the casket will awake to a NEW FLESHY body. Their Jewish traditions are so... weaved into their 'fleshy' carnal mind, they lack understanding about spiritual things.

Then their false thinking about the 'spirit' of Eccl.12 going back to God is also with their fleshy thinking, treating that 'spirit' like it is a force only that God animates all living things with.

Hebrews 9:27 says it appointed unto men once to die. So what about those saints that came out of their graves after Christ's resurrection, and appeared to many in Jerusalem? Were they raised only to die again?

After Christ's resurrection, Apostle Peter showed that Jesus went and preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison". That was actual Bible prophecy that Jesus would do that at His 1st coming, per Isaiah 42:7, freeing those in Satan's prison house out of the darkness of that heavenly house.

The 1 Peter 4:6 Scripture is another New Testament Scripture those on the Jew's false 'dead in the ground' theory don't want you to see...

1 Peter 4:6
6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Per Hebrews 4:12, God made us with a 'spirit', 'soul', and a flesh body. Our 'spirit' part is the heavenly body we have which God gave us, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens, according to Apostle Paul (yet another New Testament Scripture the Jews deny)...

2 Cor 5:1
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
KJV

What Paul says above is that if our flesh body ("earthly house") were suddenly dissolved, we STILL have (present tense) a building of God, a spirit body ("an house not made with hands), ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS. That is actually the "spiritual body" Paul first covered back in 1 Corinthians 15. We were supposed to understand about that "spiritual body" before coming here to 2 Corinthians 5!

That is HOW Paul spoke of one he knew that was "caught up" to the third heaven, whether in the body our out of the body, Paul said he didn't know, but that God knew. That agrees with what Paul taught about our 'spirit' which is of the heavenly order, and is attached with our soul part.

 

[Hobie]

I described the death of the soul as the separation of the body from a person's spirit, or soul. How is that the "2nd death?" Everybody I have ever known, who have died, did *not* go through the "2nd Death." Rather, they died for the "1st time!"

Your sense that the soul itself dies, separate from their physical death, has no basis in fact or Scripture. The putting off of the body from a person's spirit is, in fact, the "death of the soul." It is a person's death!

The "death of the soul" does not mean the death of a person's spirit. Rather, it means the soul loses its body, temporarily, which is then called the "death of a person," or the "death of a soul, or human being."

The "soul" is simply representing a human being as a spirit who is designed to live in a body, but who when it loses the body is said to have "died." The "soul" died is another word for "the person died." It has nothing whatsoever to do with the "spirit" itself dying, separate from the body. The annihilation of the soul, or the spirit of a person, is *not* taught in Scriptures!

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[Hobie]

The OP is simply stuck on old Jewish traditions of the 'dead in the ground' theory they base on the 'living soul' idea of Genesis 2:7. They don't heed The New Testament Scripture which make it very plain what happens to our spirit with soul when our flesh dies (2 Corinthians 5; 1 Corinthians 15; Matthew 10:28, etc.)

The orthodox Jews especially believe that when our flesh body dies, our soul dies with our flesh and both sleep in the casket awaiting the resurrection. And then that same flesh with soul that's dead in the casket will awake to a NEW FLESHY body. Their Jewish traditions are so... weaved into their 'fleshy' carnal mind, they lack understanding about spiritual things.

Well, you can say its just the Jews but early church also held that the 'soul' was given to man through the 'breath of life' that God alone can give. Gods Word is quiet clear that He is alone the one who is immortal because if we had it of self, what need would we have for God, Lets look at this question. We have many who are confused by this verse:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28) This verse is not understood by many because the word "soul" has lost its original meaning. Once that is restored, the text becomes clear.

The English word "soul" is a translation of the Greek word psuche and from the Hebrew word nephesh. Both words mean "a living, breathing creature," referring to man or animal. "Soul" never means something immortal inside of man or animal. The words "immortal soul" do not appear in the Bible. In fact scripture tells us that a soul can perish. Ezekiel declares, " the soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4) and repeats it in verse 20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die"(Ezekiel 18:20). The word "soul" pertains to the life of any physical being or creature. Soul simply means "life." God can destroy the physical body and the soul (life). Matthew 10:28 tells us not to fear those who can only kill the physical body, but God who can do both.

So lets look at scripture and see what is a soul?

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as נֶ֫פֶשׁ‎; which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

Genesis 1:20

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.

So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul who sins shall die.

The living creature who sins…

The person who sins…

The individual who sins…


The Spirit (Ruach)

On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

For example

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

2 Corinthians 5:8

Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

James 2:26

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

Genesis 2:7

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach רוח‎; which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

Genesis 7:15

Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

Psalm 104:29

When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ecclesiastes 12:7

the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

 

[Davy]

So brethren in Christ Jesus, I would be very, very careful with listening to the old Jew's tradition of the 'dead in the ground' theory.

It's an old... theory by the Old Testament era Jews who did not yet understand that the soul God made for Adam was not the same thing as Adam's flesh body made from the ground.

Solomon understood the difference between our flesh and our spirit/soul, otherwise he would not have known about that "silver cord" that keeps our spirit attached to our flesh until our flesh dies (Ecclesiastes 12:5-7).

Elijah also knew about the 'soul' leaving the flesh body, when he overspread the child who died, and prayed for God to allow the child's soul to return into the child's flesh body (1 Kings 17).

Thus even back in Old Testament Scripture, we are given examples of an order involving another dimension of existence, the heavenly dimension. This earthly dimension we live in, which is focused on the flesh, is not the only dimension of existence shown in God's Word. But if one's mind is focused only on the carnal nature and fleshy things, matters involving that other dimension of the heavenly will not be realized nor understood.

As a matter of fact, some folks are scared to even think about that heavenly dimension and its order, simply because it is an 'unknown' to them, and man is usually afraid of the unknown. Think about who's fault it is though that those do not know and fear. It's their own fault, because God shows us how things are even with that heavenly dimension in His Word. And The New Testament Scriptures have a whole lot more to say about the heavenly than the Old Testament Scriptures do.

This matter is just one example of many old Jewish traditions of men creeping into the Christian Church that shows more focus on Old Testament Scripture on spiritual things, instead of the greater insight given by Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles per The New Testament Books. But how... are you going to know they are pushing an Old Testament doctrine of the Jews if you don't know at least your New Testament Bible? If this applies to you, might want to get busy in Bible study for yourself.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So brethren in Christ Jesus, I would be very, very careful with listening to the old Jew's tradition of the 'dead in the ground' theory.

It's an old... theory by the Old Testament era Jews who did not yet understand that the soul God made for Adam was not the same thing as Adam's flesh body made from the ground.

Solomon understood the difference between our flesh and our spirit/soul, otherwise he would not have known about that "silver cord" that keeps our spirit attached to our flesh until our flesh dies (Ecclesiastes 12:5-7).

Elijah also knew about the 'soul' leaving the flesh body, when he overspread the child who died, and prayed for God to allow the child's soul to return into the child's flesh body (1 Kings 17).

Thus even back in Old Testament Scripture, we are given examples of an order involving another dimension of existence, the heavenly dimension. This earthly dimension we live in, which is focused on the flesh, is not the only dimension of existence shown in God's Word. But if one's mind is focused only on the carnal nature and fleshy things, matters involving that other dimension of the heavenly will not be realized nor understood.

As a matter of fact, some folks are scared to even think about that heavenly dimension and its order, simply because it is an 'unknown' to them, and man is usually afraid of the unknown. Think about who's fault it is though that those do not know and fear. It's their own fault, because God shows us how things are even with that heavenly dimension in His Word. And The New Testament Scriptures have a whole lot more to say about the heavenly than the Old Testament Scriptures do.

This matter is just one example of many old Jewish traditions of men creeping into the Christian Church that shows more focus on Old Testament Scripture on spiritual things, instead of the greater insight given by Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles per The New Testament Books. But how... are you going to know they are pushing an Old Testament doctrine of the Jews if you don't know at least your New Testament Bible? If this applies to you, might want to get busy in Bible study for yourself.

I agree with your belief about the soul, but don't wish to characterize the opposite belief as necessarily a "Jewish belief." That may be true with some, but I would see it more as the product of agnosticism or atheism. And that exists among all ethnic groups.

However, your belief in the "heavenly dimension" is well put, in my view.

 

[Hobie]

I agree with your belief about the soul, but don't wish to characterize the opposite belief as necessarily a "Jewish belief." That may be true with some, but I would see it more as the product of agnosticism or atheism. And that exists among all ethnic groups.

However, your belief in the "heavenly dimension" is well put, in my view.

Well, you have to understand that the Greeks, under the Hellenistic teachings of Plato and other pagan philosophers taught of the duality of body/spirit (some say body/soul). This teaching spread and was accepted by a large number of Jews, but the problem is that it replaced the OT wholism concept of body/spirit/soul. The dualistic view is based in paganism that came in from Greek thought, not scriptural teachings, and was spread by the church at Rome and corrupted doctrine such as Gnosticism and its adherents like Origen in his 'Peri Archon iii, 5' that held that 'souls' in humans and ' angels' were the all the same.

 

[Hobie]

Now some try to claim the Bible does says that men have spirits that are angels and give this text..
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

So what does Paul mean by, 'to the spirits of just men made perfect', well lets look at the context.
Hebrews 1218-24
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake.
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

As we saw, in the Greek of the NT, the soul was put as the Greek word psuche and is translated "spirit" (pneuma) which is "a living, breathing creature". The text in question, 'to the spirits of just men made perfect', is not written for people who are already in heaven, but for Christian believers on this earth who are confronted with the challenges and temptations of everyday life. Paul is telling the Christians that they have not been confronted with the remarkable experience of seeing God's glory on Mount Sinai, of hearing His mighty voice, and seeing the earth shake as the law was proclaimed. Now that Christ has died and risen again, the divine love and glory are manifested in other ways.

Though some of the things Paul says which believers have come to are in heaven and some on earth, the believers themselves remain on earth. If they were in heaven they would not need the intercession of Christ as we see he says in the last verse. So we see that it doesnt mean that this text speaks of an immaterial, invisible, immortal essence in man, which floats up to heaven at death. If you look, no instance of the occurrence of the word in the original Hebrew or Greek will sustain such a definition.