The Spiritual Function of the Prophets have ceased !

[Lizbeth]

I have been working with Christian leaders..involved in pioneering work (since 1990's)..
- in unreached (restricted) regions/countries.
--
Many of them are not into/interested in..about the title (apostle)..
- even though..they are involved in apostolic mission/ministry.

Wonderful. And thank you for responding here. I agree, and think in terms of gifting and functioning rather than offices/titles. But do any of you discern apostles among you? (as apart from being church or ministry-appointed) Sometimes we can discern what part of the Body of Christ someone is. I'm not sure all missionaries are necessarily apostles.

 

[ChristisGod]

Old covenant prophets were until John. But Paul wrote instructions for prophets in the new covenant ekklesia, that they were to take turns and that their prophesying is subject to them, ie, they are able to hold their tongue so that other prophets can have their turn speaking. And I mean I have to consider that we just do see people prophesying in the church today. But they are not writing new scriptures, on that I agree. They prophesy, exhort, encourage, comfort. Bible says the Holy Spirit would show us things to come.

And I agree that the old covenant prophets who wrote scripture form the foundation along with the original 12 apostles who Jesus said would judge the 12 tribes of Israel (believe He was talking about the tribes of the Israel of God, the 12 "tribes" in the church being possibly according to gifts/callings)...the gospel and truths that they preached, taught and wrote, and how they had been personally discipled by Jesus and then began the building of the church (foundation). I have wondered if the 144,000 spoken of in the book of Rev are apostles...they seem as if they are particularly set apart.....following the Lamb wherever He goes, and also sealed. If we check out the number twelve in Revelation.....12,000 sealed from each tribe (12x12000=144000) and how there are twelve foundations in the heavenly city...it does seem as though it is alluding to the twelve apostles and possibly apostleship in the church/Israel of God in a more general way.

It does seem as though there are other apostles alluded to in the new testament, brother....I haven't looked into this before and had to go searching online, and here are some apparent references: Matt 13:55 (Jesus' brother James); Acts 14:14 (Barnabus); 1 Thess 1:1 and 2:6 (Silas and Timothy); 1 Cor 4:6 and 4:9 (Apollos). Also there is another possible one that is not conclusive and is debated over: Rom 16:7 (Andronicus and Junia). But it doesn't seem out of line to me that the original 12 apostles would have been discipling the next generation of apostles to continue the work after they had left this life.

Just a thought, but if apostles are the ones who are especially gifted with grace to make new converts and establish new congregations/churches with the new converts, then maybe we just wouldn't expect to see them in places where the church has already been well established for a long time, such as in the west. Just a thought there. I have never seen any (genuine) apostles that I know of and have never been to countries where Christianity is a pioneering work. I just would be interested to know their thoughts on this (churches in the third world), whether they believe they have apostles among them.

See below from the Thayers Greek Lexicon

Specially applied to the twelve disciples whom Christ selected, out of the multitude of his adherents, to be his constant companions and the heralds to proclaim to men the kingdom of God: Matthew 10:1-4; Luke 6:13; Acts 1:26; Revelation 21:14, and often, but nowhere in the Gospel and Epistles of John; ("the word ἀπόστολος occurs 79 times in the N. T., and of these 68 instances are in St. Luke and St. Paul." Lightfoot). With these apostles Paul claimed equality, because through a heavenly intervention he had been appointed by the ascended Christ himself to preach the gospel among the Gentiles, and owed his knowledge of the way of salvation not to man's instruction but to direct revelation from Christ himself, and moreover had evinced his apostolic qualifications by many signal proofs: Galatians 1:1, 11; Galatians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:17; 1 Corinthians 9:1; 1 Corinthians 15:8-10; 2 Corinthians 3:2ff; 12:12; 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11, cf. Acts 26:12-20. According to Paul, apostles surpassed as well the various other orders of Christian teachers (cf. διδάσκαλος, εὐαγγελιστής, προφήτης), as also the rest of those on whom the special gifts (cf. χάρισμα) of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed, by receiving a richer and more copious conferment of the Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11. Certain false teachers are rated sharply for arrogating to themselves the name and authority of apostles of Christ: 2 Corinthians 11:5, 13; Revelation 2:2.

3. In a broader sense the name is transferred to other eminent Christian teachers; as Barnabas, Acts 14:14, and perhaps also Timothy and Silvanus, 1 Thessalonians 2:7 (6), cf. too Romans 16:7 (?). But in Luke 11:49; Ephesians 3:5; Revelation 18:20, 'apostles' is to be taken in the narrower sense. (On the application of the term see especially Lightfoot on Galatians, pp. 92-101; Harnack, on 'Teaching etc. 11, 3 [ET]; cf. BB. DD. under the word)

 

[ChristisGod]

Old covenant prophets were until John. But Paul wrote instructions for prophets in the new covenant ekklesia, that they were to take turns and that their prophesying is subject to them, ie, they are able to hold their tongue so that other prophets can have their turn speaking. And I mean I have to consider that we just do see people prophesying in the church today. But they are not writing new scriptures, on that I agree. They prophesy, exhort, encourage, comfort. Bible says the Holy Spirit would show us things to come.

And I agree that the old covenant prophets who wrote scripture form the foundation along with the original 12 apostles who Jesus said would judge the 12 tribes of Israel (believe He was talking about the tribes of the Israel of God, the 12 "tribes" in the church being possibly according to gifts/callings)...the gospel and truths that they preached, taught and wrote, and how they had been personally discipled by Jesus and then began the building of the church (foundation). I have wondered if the 144,000 spoken of in the book of Rev are apostles...they seem as if they are particularly set apart.....following the Lamb wherever He goes, and also sealed. If we check out the number twelve in Revelation.....12,000 sealed from each tribe (12x12000=144000) and how there are twelve foundations in the heavenly city...it does seem as though it is alluding to the twelve apostles and possibly apostleship in the church/Israel of God in a more general way.

It does seem as though there are other apostles alluded to in the new testament, brother....I haven't looked into this before and had to go searching online, and here are some apparent references: Matt 13:55 (Jesus' brother James); Acts 14:14 (Barnabus); 1 Thess 1:1 and 2:6 (Silas and Timothy); 1 Cor 4:6 and 4:9 (Apollos). Also there is another possible one that is not conclusive and is debated over: Rom 16:7 (Andronicus and Junia). But it doesn't seem out of line to me that the original 12 apostles would have been discipling the next generation of apostles to continue the work after they had left this life.

Just a thought, but if apostles are the ones who are especially gifted with grace to make new converts and establish new congregations/churches with the new converts, then maybe we just wouldn't expect to see them in places where the church has already been well established for a long time, such as in the west. Just a thought there. I have never seen any (genuine) apostles that I know of and have never been to countries where Christianity is a pioneering work. I just would be interested to know their thoughts on this (churches in the third world), whether they believe they have apostles among them.

And here

During the first century of the church, there was an office of apostle and there was a spiritual gift of apostle. The office or position of apostle was held by the 12 disciples of Jesus plus Matthias, who took Judas’ place, and Paul. Those who held the office or position of apostle were chosen specifically by Christ (Mark 3:16-19). The replacement for Judas is seen in Acts 1:20-26. Note in this passage that Judas' position was called an office. It should also be noted that Paul was chosen by Christ (1 Corinthians 15:8-9; Galatians 1:1; 2:6-9). These men were given the task of setting up the foundation of the church. It should be understood that it was for the universal church that these men were a part of the foundation (Ephesians 2:20). The foundation of the church (universal church) was laid in the first century. This is why the office of apostle is no longer functioning.

There was also a spiritual gift of apostle (this is not to be confused with the office—they are separate). Among those who had the spiritual gift were James (1 Corinthians 15:7; Galatians 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:4, 14; 1 Corinthians 9:6), Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7), possibly Silas and Timothy (1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2:7), and Apollos (1 Corinthians 4:6, 9). This latter group had the gift of apostleship but not the apostolic "office" conferred upon the Twelve and Paul. Those who had the gift of apostle, then, were those who carried the gospel message with God’s authority. The word "apostle" means "one sent as an authoritative delegate." This was true of those who held the office of Apostle (like Paul) and those who had the spiritual gift (like Apollos). Though there are men like this today, men who are sent by God to spread the gospel, it is best NOT to refer to them as apostles because of the confusion this causes since many are not aware of the two different uses of the term apostle.

The gift of prophet was a temporary gift given by the Christ for the laying of the foundation of the universal church. Prophets also were foundational to the universal church (Ephesians 2:20). The prophet proclaimed a message from the Lord for the believers of the first century. These believers did not have the advantage we have of having a complete Bible. The last book of the New Testament (Revelation) was not completed until late in the first century. So the Lord provided gifted men called prophets who proclaimed messages from God to the people until the canon of Scripture was complete.

It should be noted that the current teaching of the restoration of prophet and the office of apostle is far from what Scripture describes of the men who held the gift of prophet and the office of apostle. Those who teach the restoration of the office teach that the men who claim to be apostles and prophets should never be spoken against, should never be questioned, because the person who speaks against them is speaking against God. Yet, the Apostle Paul commended the people of Berea for checking what he said against the Word of God to make sure he spoke the truth (Acts 17:10-11). The Apostle Paul also stated to those in Galatia that if anyone, including himself, should teach another Gospel, that person should be "accursed" (Galatians 1:8-9). In everything, Paul kept pointing people to the Bible as the final authority. The men who claim to be apostles and prophets today make themselves the final authority, something Paul and the Twelve never did.

It should also be noted that Scripture refers to these men in the past tense. 2 Peter 3:2 and also Jude 3-4, state that the people should not stray from the message the apostles gave (past tense). Hebrews 2:3-4 also speaks in the past tense of the those who performed (in the past) signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Lizbeth]

See below from the Thayers Greek Lexicon

Specially applied to the twelve disciples whom Christ selected, out of the multitude of his adherents, to be his constant companions and the heralds to proclaim to men the kingdom of God: Matthew 10:1-4; Luke 6:13; Acts 1:26; Revelation 21:14, and often, but nowhere in the Gospel and Epistles of John; ("the word ἀπόστολος occurs 79 times in the N. T., and of these 68 instances are in St. Luke and St. Paul." Lightfoot). With these apostles Paul claimed equality, because through a heavenly intervention he had been appointed by the ascended Christ himself to preach the gospel among the Gentiles, and owed his knowledge of the way of salvation not to man's instruction but to direct revelation from Christ himself, and moreover had evinced his apostolic qualifications by many signal proofs: Galatians 1:1, 11; Galatians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:17; 1 Corinthians 9:1; 1 Corinthians 15:8-10; 2 Corinthians 3:2ff; 12:12; 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11, cf. Acts 26:12-20. According to Paul, apostles surpassed as well the various other orders of Christian teachers (cf. διδάσκαλος, εὐαγγελιστής, προφήτης), as also the rest of those on whom the special gifts (cf. χάρισμα) of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed, by receiving a richer and more copious conferment of the Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11. Certain false teachers are rated sharply for arrogating to themselves the name and authority of apostles of Christ: 2 Corinthians 11:5, 13; Revelation 2:2.

3. In a broader sense the name is transferred to other eminent Christian teachers; as Barnabas, Acts 14:14, and perhaps also Timothy and Silvanus, 1 Thessalonians 2:7 (6), cf. too Romans 16:7 (?). But in Luke 11:49; Ephesians 3:5; Revelation 18:20, 'apostles' is to be taken in the narrower sense. (On the application of the term see especially Lightfoot on Galatians, pp. 92-101; Harnack, on 'Teaching etc. 11, 3 [ET]; cf. BB. DD. under the word)

yes, I agree that apostles that come after are not part of the foundation, but could we say that they will be found continuing the work of putting in the (right) foundation where it has not yet been laid...? ...or even re-laying the proper foundation where there has been a straying away from the right foundation..?

Also I am not sure Paul is part of the 12 who will be judging the twelve tribes of the Israel of God..? There are only twelve who do that, and one was already appointed to take the place of Judas.

And brother I couldnt agree more about there being many false prophets and false apostles around.

 

[ChristisGod]

yes, I agree that apostles that come after are not part of the foundation, but could we say that they will be found continuing the work of putting in the (right) foundation where it has not yet been laid...? ...or even re-laying the proper foundation where there has been a straying away from the right foundation..?

Also I am not sure Paul is part of the 12 who will be judging the twelve tribes of the Israel of God..? There are only twelve who do that, and one was already appointed to take the place of Judas.

And brother I couldnt agree more about there being many false prophets and false apostles around.

judas replacement is debatable whether they took it upon themselves to do or wait until Jesus personally picked and chose the replacement just like He chose them. And we know Jesus personally appeared to Paul and chose him. I'm just suggesting this as an alternative view and I'm not dogmatic about it. We never hear from matthias after they chose him and Paul wrote 1/2 of the New Testament and was the biggest influence on the N.T. church and the other Apostles. Paul was Jesus chosen vessel to reach the gentiles.

 

[Wrangler]

built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Does God reveal truth to someone in a supernatural way and enable that person to deliver that message to others? Absolutely! But is this the biblical gift of prophecy? No.

Depending on how you mean this, can’t say I agree. God telling someone to pass on a message is not prophecy, per se.

However, when that message is prophetic, then it is the gift of prophecy. This is the gift that I received.

To keep things straight; I did NOT get prophecy about the foundation of our faith. The gift of prophecy I was given, which included a vision of the future, was for a choice one individual was considering.

 

[Lizbeth]

And here

During the first century of the church, there was an office of apostle and there was a spiritual gift of apostle. The office or position of apostle was held by the 12 disciples of Jesus plus Matthias, who took Judas’ place, and Paul. Those who held the office or position of apostle were chosen specifically by Christ (Mark 3:16-19). The replacement for Judas is seen in Acts 1:20-26. Note in this passage that Judas' position was called an office. It should also be noted that Paul was chosen by Christ (1 Corinthians 15:8-9; Galatians 1:1; 2:6-9). These men were given the task of setting up the foundation of the church. It should be understood that it was for the universal church that these men were a part of the foundation (Ephesians 2:20). The foundation of the church (universal church) was laid in the first century. This is why the office of apostle is no longer functioning.

There was also a spiritual gift of apostle (this is not to be confused with the office—they are separate). Among those who had the spiritual gift were James (1 Corinthians 15:7; Galatians 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:4, 14; 1 Corinthians 9:6), Andronicus and Junias (Romans 16:7), possibly Silas and Timothy (1 Thessalonians 1:1; 2:7), and Apollos (1 Corinthians 4:6, 9). This latter group had the gift of apostleship but not the apostolic "office" conferred upon the Twelve and Paul. Those who had the gift of apostle, then, were those who carried the gospel message with God’s authority. The word "apostle" means "one sent as an authoritative delegate." This was true of those who held the office of Apostle (like Paul) and those who had the spiritual gift (like Apollos). Though there are men like this today, men who are sent by God to spread the gospel, it is best NOT to refer to them as apostles because of the confusion this causes since many are not aware of the two different uses of the term apostle.

The gift of prophet was a temporary gift given by the Christ for the laying of the foundation of the universal church. Prophets also were foundational to the universal church (Ephesians 2:20). The prophet proclaimed a message from the Lord for the believers of the first century. These believers did not have the advantage we have of having a complete Bible. The last book of the New Testament (Revelation) was not completed until late in the first century. So the Lord provided gifted men called prophets who proclaimed messages from God to the people until the canon of Scripture was complete.

It should be noted that the current teaching of the restoration of prophet and the office of apostle is far from what Scripture describes of the men who held the gift of prophet and the office of apostle. Those who teach the restoration of the office teach that the men who claim to be apostles and prophets should never be spoken against, should never be questioned, because the person who speaks against them is speaking against God. Yet, the Apostle Paul commended the people of Berea for checking what he said against the Word of God to make sure he spoke the truth (Acts 17:10-11). The Apostle Paul also stated to those in Galatia that if anyone, including himself, should teach another Gospel, that person should be "accursed" (Galatians 1:8-9). In everything, Paul kept pointing people to the Bible as the final authority. The men who claim to be apostles and prophets today make themselves the final authority, something Paul and the Twelve never did.

It should also be noted that Scripture refers to these men in the past tense. 2 Peter 3:2 and also Jude 3-4, state that the people should not stray from the message the apostles gave (past tense). Hebrews 2:3-4 also speaks in the past tense of the those who performed (in the past) signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit. got?

hope this helps !!!

ok, I do differ that new covenant prophets are part of the foundation. I take that to mean it was the OT prophets who were foundational, ie, their testimony and prophecies of scripture formed the foundation (along with the 12 apostles, and of course the Cornerstone).

There are words that are translated as "office" in both testaments (had to refresh my memory), I agree.......BUT I believe we need to be careful of ascribing a worldly understanding to that word. Worldly formalities and titles in the church give me the heebeejeebies. For one thing the church is not a corporation or a political entity, and for another, worldly authority opens the door to all kinds of abuses. I get the sense of more of a ROLE of serving (ministering) and oversight. And it is spiritual authority, rather than fleshly, ie, "do not exercise authority upon them as the pagans do."

I really like what you said there about Paul pointing to God's word as the final authority and not himself (though at times he did have to defend his ministry when he was being challenged).

 

[Lizbeth]

judas replacement is debatable whether they took it upon themselves to do or wait until Jesus personally picked and chose the replacement just like He chose them. And we know Jesus personally appeared to Paul and chose him. I'm just suggesting this as an alternative view and I'm not dogmatic about it. We never hear from matthias after they chose him and Paul wrote 1/2 of the New Testament and was the biggest influence on the N.T. church and the other Apostles. Paul was Jesus chosen vessel to reach the gentiles.

Paul is certainly well-beloved by all of us who love the truth and appreciate all his hard work and what he suffered for the gospel. I had assumed that he was the first who was given a spiritual gift of apostle after the twelve, but like you I'm not dogmatic about that either. Will check out the scripts where that one was chosen to replace Judas... Actually I'm just now recalling that it was prophesied in the OT that another would take his place...so at this minute I think I'm leaning in that direction.

 

[GTW27]

yes, I agree that apostles that come after are not part of the foundation, but could we say that they will be found continuing the work of putting in the (right) foundation where it has not yet been laid...? ...or even re-laying the proper foundation where there has been a straying away from the right foundation..?

Also I am not sure Paul is part of the 12 who will be judging the twelve tribes of the Israel of God..? There are only twelve who do that, and one was already appointed to take the place of Judas.

And brother I couldnt agree more about there being many false prophets and false apostles around.

Blessings in Christ Jesus Lizbeth! The false prophets and the false apostles are a fulfillment of scripture, a fulfillment of Jesus's words coming to pass. He warned us about these times. What is coming upon this world will come without warning as it is designed to catch many unaware and off guard.(at an hour you least expect). The true anointed ones of The Lord can see that the table is set, and yet they are silent. Now why would that be? Perhaps, it is because we are not to be caught sleeping, as His disciples did, when Jesus went to pray. We are to watch. "Could you not watch with Me for one hour?"

 

[JunChosen]

judas replacement is debatable whether they took it upon themselves to do or wait until Jesus personally picked and chose the replacement just like He chose them. And we know Jesus personally appeared to Paul and chose him. I'm just suggesting this as an alternative view and I'm not dogmatic about it. We never hear from matthias after they chose him and Paul wrote 1/2 of the New Testament and was the biggest influence on the N.T. church and the other Apostles. Paul was Jesus chosen vessel to reach the gentiles.

Yes, Judas' replacement was debatable.

We read in Matthew 27:35:

"And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots."

"Casting Lots" is a form of gambling! And, there are many passages in Scripture indicating this.

Now, concerning prophets, ALL believers are prophets! The definition of a prophet is one who declares the word of God (Gospel).

Matthew 28:19-20 reads:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

I hope this helps.

To God Be The Glory

 

[GRACE ambassador]

judas replacement is debatable whether they took it upon themselves to do or wait until Jesus personally picked and chose the replacement just like He chose them.

Disagree, not debatable, Because:

"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number​

of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, This Scripture ​

must needs have been fulfilled, which The Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before​

concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.​

For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry....and his bishoprick ​

let another take.​

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the LORD Jesus ​

went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that ​

He was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection.​

​

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.​

And they prayed, and said, Thou, LORD, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether ​

of these two Thou Hast Chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from​

which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth​

their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."​

(Acts 1:15-26)​

Not debatable by saying "the eleven were in error, not waiting to 'choose Paul (who was
'not even qualified'" (vs. 21-22)), But Scripturally Confirmed By:

Act 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost..."​

And, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) * ← PG rated "Approved" *

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

* PG = Perfect God / Parental Guidance:



Amen.