The Temporal Law

[Randy Kluth]

The Law was temporary and fulfilled in time.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The clause "until heaven and earth disappear" does not mean that the Law will remain in effect until that the universe disappears. It means that it is more certain that the Law must be fulfilled by Christ than the certainty that the universe will continue.

How do I know that? The same version is worded in a slightly different way elsewhere, indicating not that the universe is eternal, and therefore the Law is eternal.

On the contrary, it is stated clearly that the universe is, in fact, in a temporary mode until it is created new. Therefore, the Law is not being equated with the eternity of the Universe. On the contrary, it is being asserted that the Law is more certain to be fulfilled by Christ, in time, than the certainty that the universe will continue forever. The universe may not continue forever in its present mode. But the Law will most certainly be fulfilled in time, at the cross of Christ.

Luke 16.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Matt 13.31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The idea concerns the atonement of Christ being more important to be fulfilled than the need for the universe to continue in its present state forever.

Luke 12.33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Some people who want the covenant of Law to be eternal point to the often-used phrase, "it is for all your generations." But it was a contract in perpetuity, but not a contract guaranteed for eternity. Once a contract is broken, and it was a conditional contract, the contract ceases to exist. It was for all of Israel's generations, as long as they remained in compliance with the terms of the covenant.

There is a sense that Divine Law is eternal, stemming from the creation of Man "in God's image and likeness." But this is generic law, which does last forever. This concept of "law" is to be distinguished from the *covenant* of Law, which was designed to only temporarily establish a relationship between God and Israel until eternal atonement could take place, establishing an eternal relationship between them.

 

[DPMartin]

The Law was temporary and fulfilled in time.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The clause "until heaven and earth disappear" does not mean that the Law will remain in effect until that the universe disappears. It means that it is more certain that the Law must be fulfilled by Christ than the certainty that the universe will continue.

How do I know that? The same version is worded in a slightly different way elsewhere, indicating not that the universe is eternal, and therefore the Law is eternal.

On the contrary, it is stated clearly that the universe is, in fact, in a temporary mode until it is created new. Therefore, the Law is not being equated with the eternity of the Universe. On the contrary, it is being asserted that the Law is more certain to be fulfilled by Christ, in time, than the certainty that the universe will continue forever. The universe may not continue forever in its present mode. But the Law will most certainly be fulfilled in time, at the cross of Christ.

Luke 16.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Matt 13.31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The idea concerns the atonement of Christ being more important to be fulfilled than the need for the universe to continue in its present state forever.

Luke 12.33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Some people who want the covenant of Law to be eternal point to the often-used phrase, "it is for all your generations." But it was a contract in perpetuity, but not a contract guaranteed for eternity. Once a contract is broken, and it was a conditional contract, the contract ceases to exist. It was for all of Israel's generations, as long as they remained in compliance with the terms of the covenant.

There is a sense that Divine Law is eternal, stemming from the creation of Man "in God's image and likeness." But this is generic law, which does last forever. This concept of "law" is to be distinguished from the *covenant* of Law, which was designed to only temporarily establish a relationship between God and Israel until eternal atonement could take place, establishing an eternal relationship between them.

no, law is a covenant, an agreement, a contract, a marriage, a constitution, so on and so forth.

if you enter another country you by default agree to obey their laws or suffer what the agreement (law) allows. what makes it law is its a nationally upheld agreement enforced by the governing body thereof. whereas default a contract and that could nullify the contract or if there's enforcement the offender could be forced to pay restitution or damages.

its all agreements, when you go into a store by default you agree doesn't matter if in your heart your intentions are different. but because you walked into the store you are under that agreement that you will pay for anything before you leave with it. and if available that agreement can be enforced. could be because the gov agrees to prosecute offenders for the store, or the store has a nasty bouncer at the door.


almost all human interaction requires some sort of an agreement, which is the distinction because all affairs' between God and man are under a agreement starting with Adam, then Noah. all souls that are the sons of Noah receive the life of Noah in which one can find grace in God's sight.

the sons of Jacob are under the covenant with Abraham Isaac and Jacob the Children of Israel (Jacob) are under the agreement at mount Sinai hence the benefits and the cures thereof which God made them agree to.

and Jesus fulfilled all these agreements to the Father's satisfaction becoming the eternal covenant. between God and man. no man comes to the Father but through the Son correct? and essentially all before Christ were under the same because its about the faithful to the Word of God. or better said, faithful to God through and in His Word.

 

[Randy Kluth]

no, law is a covenant, an agreement, a contract, a marriage, a constitution, so on and so forth.

I'm not real clear about what you're saying, and what you're arguing against? The Law of Moses was a contract made between God and Israel--not God and the world. And it was a conditional contract, which Israel failed to live by. It was therefore annulled.

God did restore it after the Babylonian Captivity, but He did not choose to restore it once Jesus made a different contract with Israel and with the whole world. That covenant fulfilled the previous agreement with Israel, making what it did unnecessary and superfluous. No need to keep making offerings for sin once they had been all atoned for!

 

[DPMartin]

I'm not real clear about what you're saying, and what you're arguing against? The Law of Moses was a contract made between God and Israel--not God and the world. And it was a conditional contract, which Israel failed to live by. It was therefore annulled.

God did restore it after the Babylonian Captivity, but He did not choose to restore it once Jesus made a different contract with Israel and with the whole world. That covenant fulfilled the previous agreement with Israel, making what it did unnecessary and superfluous. No need to keep making offerings for sin once they had been all atoned for!

nope, the contract between Israel and the Lord their God still stands. they are under it now. one isn't within a agreement unless one is in agreement and the Jews are not in agreement with Jesus. therefore the agreement isn't replaced when it comes to children of Israel that are not in agreement in Christ Jesus.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Law was temporary and fulfilled in time.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The clause "until heaven and earth disappear" does not mean that the Law will remain in effect until that the universe disappears. It means that it is more certain that the Law must be fulfilled by Christ than the certainty that the universe will continue.

How do I know that? The same version is worded in a slightly different way elsewhere, indicating not that the universe is eternal, and therefore the Law is eternal.

On the contrary, it is stated clearly that the universe is, in fact, in a temporary mode until it is created new. Therefore, the Law is not being equated with the eternity of the Universe. On the contrary, it is being asserted that the Law is more certain to be fulfilled by Christ, in time, than the certainty that the universe will continue forever. The universe may not continue forever in its present mode. But the Law will most certainly be fulfilled in time, at the cross of Christ.

Luke 16.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Matt 13.31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The idea concerns the atonement of Christ being more important to be fulfilled than the need for the universe to continue in its present state forever.

Luke 12.33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Some people who want the covenant of Law to be eternal point to the often-used phrase, "it is for all your generations." But it was a contract in perpetuity, but not a contract guaranteed for eternity. Once a contract is broken, and it was a conditional contract, the contract ceases to exist. It was for all of Israel's generations, as long as they remained in compliance with the terms of the covenant.

There is a sense that Divine Law is eternal, stemming from the creation of Man "in God's image and likeness." But this is generic law, which does last forever. This concept of "law" is to be distinguished from the *covenant* of Law, which was designed to only temporarily establish a relationship between God and Israel until eternal atonement could take place, establishing an eternal relationship between them.

There never really was a question that the Law would pass...go away...or change. The Old Testament referred to them as forever around 200 times and Christ affirmed that.

The question is who do they apply to? And that is very simple, to those that are part of the Old Covenant with God....in other words, not Christians.

 

[Randy Kluth]

nope, the contract between Israel and the Lord their God still stands. they are under it now. one isn't within a agreement unless one is in agreement and the Jews are not in agreement with Jesus. therefore the agreement isn't replaced when it comes to children of Israel that are not in agreement in Christ Jesus.

Sorry, Jesus never wanted Israel to fail their agreement with God by the Law. But they did. They broke the Law. They annulled the Law--not Jesus. Jesus just sealed the deal. He confirmed that the covenant had been broken...forever, by dying on the cross. And then he began a new agreement that could not be broken, because the new agreement depends on his own perfect performance, and not on the frailty of Man.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There never really was a question that the Law would pass...go away...or change. The Old Testament referred to them as forever around 200 times and Christ affirmed that.

The question is who do they apply to? And that is very simple, to those that are part of the Old Covenant with God....in other words, not Christians.

The Law of Moses was created to last from generation to generation, but not to exist in its present state forever. God knew the agreement would be broken by Israel, and thus terminated.

So Jesus did not come to break the Law himself, as if he was party to breaking the Law. He did not come to either abolish the requirements for Israel, nor to destroy the agreement. But he knew Israel was failing, and would fail to meet their terms of the agreement, thus abrogating the agreement.

As long as the Law remained in play, Jesus required performance under the Law. And those who tried to deemphasize this would be called less in the Kingdom of heaven.

At that time, the "Kingdom" referred to the theocracy that God had created in Israel. It was established on the Law. And as long as that covenant remained in play, the rules would remain the same.

But God had always planned to complete the agreement in a new agreement, because the old agreement could never bring eternal life. It would always end in failure.

Even if Israel had never failed under the Law, Jesus had always planned to establish a new agreement with Israel, completing the old agreement of Law. And that's because the Law could not overcome the record of sin indicting Israel and all mankind.

Therefore, Jesus had always planned to introduce a new and final covenant, which could never fail. It did not depend on Israel's performance, and disregarded the failure of mankind. It was based on Jesus' perfect performance, and would apply only to those among the nations who accept him as the basis of their righteousness.

 

[DPMartin]

Sorry, Jesus never wanted Israel to fail their agreement with God by the Law. But they did. They broke the Law. They annulled the Law--not Jesus. Jesus just sealed the deal. He confirmed that the covenant had been broken...forever, by dying on the cross. And then he began a new agreement that could not be broken, because the new agreement depends on his own perfect performance, and not on the frailty of Man.

the Torah provides for forgiveness and mercy, God knew they couldn't keep the agreement before He made one with them. its not in human nature to do so. there are many times when the Lord let them suffer the results of their actions when they broke contract, how many time did they go after other gods? but He always came to deliver them when they turned to Him and there were circumstances where He ignored their cries, see the book of Judges for example and the OT prophets. it was never nullified, God always kept them in it, notice that it toke the Son of God in the flesh to acutely fulfill it for them. the Jews can't get out of the contract they are in it as long as there are Jews on the planet and no matter how many times the world has tried to wipe them out, they are still here.

i suspect you're just throwing anything out there so, i'm done with this.

 

[Randy Kluth]

the Torah provides for forgiveness and mercy, God knew they couldn't keep the agreement before He made one with them. its not in human nature to do so. there are many times when the Lord let them suffer the results of their actions when they broke contract, how many time did they go after other gods? but He always came to deliver them when they turned to Him and there were circumstances where He ignored their cries, see the book of Judges for example and the OT prophets. it was never nullified, God always kept them in it, notice that it toke the Son of God in the flesh to acutely fulfill it for them. the Jews can't get out of the contract they are in it as long as there are Jews on the planet and no matter how many times the world has tried to wipe them out, they are still here.

i suspect you're just throwing anything out there so, i'm done with this.

And this just shows you're insincere. Those who want to deliver answers to others, do so--not turn and run, claiming it's not worth their time. You're on the wrong side of the Bible. Hebrews argues that if there had been nothing wrong with the 1st covenant there would not have been another one. But there was a New Covenant, supplanting the 1st one.

And you're not even addressing the fact that sin was forgiven under the Law, but the annulment of a contract is something greater. Many times Israel sinned, and were forgiven, because it hadn't yet risen to the level of nation-wide apostasy. But once things approached no return, then the covenant was broken.

I know that because the Bible says they were divorced, and stopped being, for a time, "God's People." They were exiled from their land, and had the temple, the symbol of their covenant, completely removed.

Restoring the covenant of Law, after its failure, was God's prerogative. But it's also God's prerogative not to restore it at all. And He has chosen to advance to the New Covenant, to complete what the Old Covenant had started. I'm sorry that you're unable to continue, but I want others to know the answer to your claims.

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

There never really was a question that the Law would pass...go away...or change. The Old Testament referred to them as forever around 200 times and Christ affirmed that.

The question is who do they apply to? And that is very simple, to those that are part of the Old Covenant with God....in other words, not Christians.

This is an exceptionally false statement, and people subscribe to this false theology because they assume the NT was written and completely canonized in the 1st century. The Law does not only apply to OT Israel, specifically because there is a multitude of NT passages that disproves this fallacy.

"But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” - Matt. 4:4

The only set of scriptures that existed when Christ said that was the OT, and He said all of mankind was supposed to live by what was written in the OT, not just Israelites. The same goes for what Paul told Timothy in 2 Tim. 3:16-17:

"and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Again, the only set of scriptures that existed at this point was the OT writings. It's incredibly foolish to say only Israelites were expected to live by the principles that were in the Law when God judged the Pre-Flood world, Sodom, Gomorrah, the neighboring cities, the Canaanites, and other groups of non-Israelites by the same standard. People who engaged in acts like idol worship, homosexuality, witchcraft, lying, and murder were all described as evildoers in the OT regardless of the perp's ethnicity. It's even more laughable that people actually say God abolished His standards of what constitutes biblical morality while ironically referencing those same standards when it comes to abortionists, people who participate in witchcraft, and the LGBT community.