The Theological to Eschatology Move

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,739
2,871
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Eschatology (/ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ (listen); from Ancient Greek ἔσχατος (éskhatos) 'last', and -logy) concerns expectations of the end of the present age, human history, or of the world itself.

Some of these threads are better fit for the Eschatology & Prophecy forum and have been moved... But... Not many! As I sometimes post topics in an inappropriate forum myself please take this as a friendly move... Thanks!
 

grumix8

Active Member
Jul 23, 2020
565
157
43
d.f.
Faith
Christian
Country
Mexico
Eschatology and Theology, both serve the lord to seperate end times is neccesary from Theology.
 

Bob Estey

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2021
5,788
3,133
113
72
Sparks, Nevada
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Eschatology (/ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ (listen); from Ancient Greek ἔσχατος (éskhatos) 'last', and -logy) concerns expectations of the end of the present age, human history, or of the world itself.

Some of these threads are better fit for the Eschatology & Prophecy forum and have been moved... But... Not many! As I sometimes post topics in an inappropriate forum myself please take this as a friendly move... Thanks!
But how many people read the Eschatology & Prophecy forum? When I start a thread, I want to post it where a significant number of people will read it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: grumix8

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,739
2,871
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But how many people read the Eschatology & Prophecy forum? When I start a thread, I want to post it where a significant number of people will read it.
So many have developed their own unique views these days, in which can get on ones nerves. Some will spend decades researching some passage and then want to hold others in darkness for not conforming to their unique views. Which is probably the reasons so few read into that forum... But... Enough is enough! One forum for that type of conversation is enough. And we want new comers and young people to be edified from our postings and not confused.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Philip James

Bob Estey

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2021
5,788
3,133
113
72
Sparks, Nevada
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So many have developed their own unique views these days, in which can get on ones nerves. Some will spend decades researching some passage and then want to hold others in darkness for not conforming to their unique views. Which is probably the reasons so few read into that forum... But... Enough is enough! One forum for that type of conversation is enough. And we want new comers and young people to be edified from our postings and not confused.
When you get old like me, you can look up the word "eschatology" to see what it means, but come tomorrow, you won't remember.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,197
1,072
113
83
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
It was not the intention of God, to give His prophets a clear, instantly understandable message. To have done that would have revealed His plans to all and sundry.

We can’t yet fully ascertain God’s ultimate design for His creation, although it is clear that he does want those who believe in Him and trust to His salvation, to be aware of coming events. We are told to trust Him and hold fast to our faith, but to do that in the midst of sudden and shocking events, without some idea of the outcome of such events, and then it is so much more difficult for us.

Therefore, because God HAS given us the information we need to know about the future, then it is a serious error to ignore it, to fail to gain some understanding or to think that a rapture removal to heaven will take us away from it all.

It must be obvious, to anyone who reads the news, that the current world situation is nearing unsustainability, in terms of resources and population. But the flash point and the focus of God’s plan, is the Middle East.

God has not, in the past 72 years, allowed Israel to be conquered and He will not allow that to happen now. Although there will be a judgement upon the Jewish people as well, a remnant will eventually be forgiven and restored. Ezekiel 16:59-63, Romans 9:27

Many prophecies tell of God’s fire judgement; this has not happened as yet, His first judgement was by a flood. This coming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, is described as a terrible day of fire and earthquakes. It will be a Day when the heavens blaze; 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, burning like a furnace; Malachi 4:1, raining fiery coals; Psalms 11:4-6, fire like a whirlwind, many will be killed; Isaiah 66:15-17, suddenly, in an instant....flames of devouring fire; Isaiah 29:5-6.

But the verse that tells us exactly what God will use on that Day is Isaiah 30:26a The moon will shine as bright as the sun and the sun will shine with 7 times its normal power.
This accurately describes a solar flare, something that does happen on a regular basis, usually harmlessly. In the past there have been larger Coronal Mass Ejections, explosions of the suns surface, but scientists warn of the possibility/probability of a massive CME, that in our modern age of communications, transport and conveniences, would have a devastating effect.

Now, note the second half of Isaiah 30:26b... on that Day, the Lord will bind up the broken limbs of His people and heal their wounds.

This is a wonderful promise to His people, those who love the Lord and follow in His laws, every faithful Christian. Many, many prophecies tell how His people will be conveyed and gathered into the Land of Greater Israel after this Day of judgement. This day and the gathering are quite different from that described at the Return of Jesus - years later.

Isaiah 52:6-12 On that Day, My people will know My Name.....go out leave Babylon, keep yourselves pure, the Lord will guard and guide you.

Ezekiel 28:25-26 When I execute judgement on all of Israel’s scornful neighbours, then My people: all the true believers, gathered from the nations, will live in peace in the Land, I shall show My holiness in them for everyone to see. [Before Jesus Returns]

Ezekiel 20:41-42 I shall accept you....after I have brought you out from the peoples where you have been dispersed, into the Land promised to your forefathers.
Ref: REB. (verses abridged)
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,739
2,871
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How our viewpoints come across to others...

When we had a plating department in our facility I worked myself up to Lab Technician and worked under a chemist. This chemist was very smart and very good at math. When he laid out equations he did so in very neat handwriting and there would be much activity as he turned the results of an analysis into an addition. I would take his calculations and put them in the form of visual basic functions and sub procedures.

Of all the years I worked with this man I had one opportunity to witness to him. I made my presentation while he was analyzing adhesion under a microscope in which you could hear the sounds... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! After my presentation he just continued to look under the microscope as if he ignored everything I said so I just continued in my work. Then... The scratch scratch, scratching stopped! And he speaks!

"You know what I think it is?" He says while continuing to look under the microscope... "I think it is arrogance!"

And then, without taking his eyes off the microscope, he continues his work... Scratch, scratch, scratch! Scratch scratch, scratch! I did not reply but went about my work. Inside I feared he was right. In many cases points of view can inhabit too much personal ego and not end up edifying or doing any good.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,209
3,086
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Keraz is right ;D.

That is your opinion. In my opinion Keraz, because of his inability to understand the Hebrew Text, he does not covey the actual context of the verses written which he quotes/references in his own paraphrases.

For example, Ezekiel 20:41-42, I would paraphrase in this manner: -

41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the fertile field of Israel, {i.e., Christ}, into the earth, for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers.

This is gives a very different contextual understanding from what Keraz presents.

Shalom
 

grumix8

Active Member
Jul 23, 2020
565
157
43
d.f.
Faith
Christian
Country
Mexico
I agree we should look at the hebrew texts and everyone takes it times to understand it because it hard and it isn't easy, we should not all just judge I wish I speak hebrew and to compare to greek it's more harder but respect both opinion I let God judge and he decides not us.

Like a famous writter said.

I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It.​

Voltaire.

Everyone can say what they say and God lets it. He will judge it all, lets see what the end times prepares for us.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,197
1,072
113
83
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
For example, Ezekiel 20:41-42, I would paraphrase in this manner: -

41 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the fertile field of Israel, {i.e., Christ}, into the earth, for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers.
This is basically what I posted. The Lord will gather His [faithful] peoples out from the nations, where they will be His witnesses, Johm 15:27, and His Light to the godless peoples. Matthew 5:14-16
They will live in all of the holy Land, all that area which God gave to Abraham, our Spiritual forefather. Galatians 3:26-29
I agree we should look at the hebrew texts
Nonsense; we cannot all spend the many years of study that would require.
We have received our Bibles in our own languages. If we cannot trust them to be accurate, then we are lost, simple as that.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,209
3,086
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
This is basically what I posted. The Lord will gather His [faithful] peoples out from the nations, where they will be His witnesses, Johm 15:27, and His Light to the godless peoples. Matthew 5:14-16
They will live in all of the holy Land, all that area which God gave to Abraham, our Spiritual forefather. Galatians 3:26-29
Keraz, your contextual understanding of God gathering the Israelites to Himself, does not mean that God is going to gather the Israelites to the Land of Canaan as you are suggesting. Other passages in Ezekiel speak of Gathering the Israelites to God and that they will remain in the places where they are living in the valleys and ravines beside the rivers where God cause them to be scattered to all around the world.

Contextually you have a very different understanding to what I had posted.

Nonsense; we cannot all spend the many years of study that would require.
We have received our Bibles in our own languages. If we cannot trust them to be accurate, then we are lost, simple as that.

You are wrong. The Saints should spend all the time necessary to understand what the context of the Hebrew text actually states. As for having error free translations of the Hebrew texts, you are living in fantasy land. No translated texts completely convey the same intended context of the original source document.

God has consistently stated prophetically that He will plant the Israelites is Christ's fertile field after the time of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children in the third and fourth age of their existence. After the conclusion of the fourth age of the existence of the Israelites, God Gather the Israelites to Himself and sprinkle them with water to cleanse them so that He can renew the Nation of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the Nations Covenant after the Heavenly Hosts are judged in heaven and the King of the Earth are judged on the earth and together the judged heavenly hosts and the Kings of the earth will be imprisoned for many days, i.e. 1,000 years, to await the time of their punishment. This will happen at the very end of this age and the beginning of the next age when the Kings of the earth will be judged at Armageddon.

Shalom
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,739
2,871
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Moving this thread also to Eschatology… :D:Do_O:cool:
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,197
1,072
113
83
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Keraz, your contextual understanding of God gathering the Israelites to Himself, does not mean that God is going to gather the Israelites to the Land of Canaan as you are suggesting. Other passages in Ezekiel speak of Gathering the Israelites to God and that they will remain in the places where they are living in the valleys and ravines beside the rivers where God cause them to be scattered to all around the world.
Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will sharpen My flashing sword and take vengeance on those who hate Me. Rejoice, you heavens, He will avenge His people and cleanse their Land.

There is a wonderful logic in the promise that those people who love the Lord will live in the Promised Land and all those prophecies to His holy people will be fulfilled. They will settle there and be “a light to all nations” as God originally intended.

Isaiah 60:3.... over you, His glory will appear and nations will travel to your light.

Very soon, there will be worldwide, dramatic events, especially in the Middle East, which will completely change the area. The Lord’s faithful people will go to live in all of the holy Land. In the very place that the ancient Israelites were rejected. Romans 9:24-26
You are wrong. The Saints should spend all the time necessary to understand what the context of the Hebrew text actually states. As for having error free translations of the Hebrew texts, you are living in fantasy land. No translated texts completely convey the same intended context of the original source document.
Please provide one example where the original text is mis-translated, in a modern Bible. [I know the KJV has plenty of errors}
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,209
3,086
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will sharpen My flashing sword and take vengeance on those who hate Me. Rejoice, you heavens, He will avenge His people and cleanse their Land.

There is a wonderful logic in the promise that those people who love the Lord will live in the Promised Land and all those prophecies to His holy people will be fulfilled. They will settle there and be “a light to all nations” as God originally intended.

Again, you are accepting the errors in our translations.

In Deu 32:41-43 it actually says this is verse 43: -

41 If I whet My glittering sword,
And My hand takes hold on judgment,
I will render vengeance to My enemies,
And repay those who hate Me.
42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood,
And My sword shall devour flesh,
With the blood of the slain and the captives,
From the heads of the leaders of the enemy."'​
43 "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And render vengeance to His adversaries;
He will provide atonement for His fertile field and His people."​

There is no mention of the Promised Land in this passage, only a fertile soil/field.

Very soon, there will be worldwide, dramatic events, especially in the Middle East, which will completely change the area. The Lord’s faithful people will go to live in all of the holy Land. In the very place that the ancient Israelites were rejected. Romans 9:24-26

Keraz, this is your error in your perverse understanding that the Lord's faithful people will go to live in the holy land.

As for Romans 9:24-26 you are using this passage to elevate the Gentile Christian over God's Holy people, the Israelites.

Please provide one example where the original text is mis-translated, in a modern Bible. [I know the KJV has plenty of errors}

Keraz, I have provided corrections in the texts that I have quoted above, it is really up to you to prove that how I have paraphrased these passages incorrectly. Your written paraphrases of the scriptures bares no resemblance to the Hebrew texts that you quote to justify your misunderstandings of what the End Time holds.
 

Keraz

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,197
1,072
113
83
Thames, New Zealand
www.logostelos.info
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Keraz, this is your error in your perverse understanding that the Lord's faithful people will go to live in the holy land.
Many, many Prophesies tell of how all the Lord's faithful Christian peoples will go to and live in all of the holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the forthcoming Sixth Seal event.

THE LAND BELONGS TO MY PEOPLE :
Jeremiah 32. The Lord tells Jeremiah to buy a field and hide the deed of purchase in a sealed jar, to be preserved for a long time to come.

Verse 30 Israel and Judah provoked My anger by their idolatry, therefore...

Verse 36 .... the Land is given over to the sword, famine and pestilence.

Verse 37-43 God’s people, all the Israelites of God, gathered from all the lands to which I banished them. They will be My people and I shall be their God. [the Christian children of the Living God, Romans 9:24-26 Ethnicity has nothing to do with God's People]

Verse 44 Then, once again, property will be bought and sold.

I would love to think that sometime soon, that jar will be found and proof of ownership by the people of God, established forever.
Note how the prophets carefully maintain the separation of Judah and Israel
Also note in Jeremiah 12:14 about what will happen to the “evil neighbours”.

That God's holy peoples are present in the holy Land during the end times, is proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-8, where they are when the 'beast' conquers them.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
8,209
3,086
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Many, many Prophesies tell of how all the Lord's faithful Christian peoples will go to and live in all of the holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the forthcoming Sixth Seal event.

THE LAND BELONGS TO MY PEOPLE :
Jeremiah 32. The Lord tells Jeremiah to buy a field and hide the deed of purchase in a sealed jar, to be preserved for a long time to come.

Verse 30 Israel and Judah provoked My anger by their idolatry, therefore...

Verse 36 .... the Land is given over to the sword, famine and pestilence.

Verse 37-43 God’s people, all the Israelites of God, gathered from all the lands to which I banished them. They will be My people and I shall be their God. [the Christian children of the Living God, Romans 9:24-26 Ethnicity has nothing to do with God's People]

Verse 44 Then, once again, property will be bought and sold.

I would love to think that sometime soon, that jar will be found and proof of ownership by the people of God, established forever.
Note how the prophets carefully maintain the separation of Judah and Israel
Also note in Jeremiah 12:14 about what will happen to the “evil neighbours”.

That God's holy peoples are present in the holy Land during the end times, is proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-8, where they are when the 'beast' conquers them.

Sadly Keraz, you are changing the scripture to support your mistaken belief, by rewriting them without any understanding of the scriptures themselves.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: Keraz