The Trinity

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Davy

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Here is Peter's answer and I agree with it:

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matt 16:16


That does not confirm a Trinity...not to me!


What is impossible for God? [see Mark 10:27]

Very simply I believe God and His Word. I have explained many times here and elsewhere where I am on this issue and why. Many people disagree with me, and some of them allow me some slack. Others do not. I have to stand with what I understand from God until and if He shows me something different. From Him alone comes any increase [read: change if you will].

I'm not convinced that you actually know... how to stay with what is written in God's Word. Even paraphrasing from God's Holy Writ is OK as long as it stays with the flow in God's Holy Writ. But I see you keeping to your 'own' philosophy and men's philosophy about The Bible instead of actually staying with what is written.
 

amadeus

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I'm not convinced that you actually know... how to stay with what is written in God's Word. Even paraphrasing from God's Holy Writ is OK as long as it stays with the flow in God's Holy Writ. But I see you keeping to your 'own' philosophy and men's philosophy about The Bible instead of actually staying with what is written.
Is that what you see? Do you believe that what you see is always what God sees?

How often should we go to the very lowest room carrying no ideas, or beliefs, or doctrines from before with us? Consider what Jesus says here:

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee." Luke 14:10
 

Cooper

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Here is Peter's answer and I agree with it:

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matt 16:16


That does not confirm a Trinity...not to me!


What is impossible for God? [see Mark 10:27]

Very simply I believe God and His Word. I have explained many times here and elsewhere where I am on this issue and why. Many people disagree with me, and some of them allow me some slack. Others do not. I have to stand with what I understand from God until and if He shows me something different. From Him alone comes any increase [read: change if you will].
Hello Amadeus, the other day we spoke about human gods. It was an idiom whereby people elevated themselves to a divine status. Pharaoh was the "son of Ra" and Julius Caesar was known as "son of god." As far as we are concerned we can forget all that jiggery-pokery, but that was current at the time of Christ and the Jews were intent on using it against Jesus.

Mat_27:43 (KJV) He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Joh_10:36 (KJV) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Jesus said he was the Son of God, (see above) he also spoke of his Father, and the Father spoke of his beloved Son. Jesus also claimed he was the I AM and that he existed before Abraham. We need to believe Jesus, accept God's Word and not deny it.

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Joh 10:32-38 KJV)


Exposition
Making himself equal with God - This shows that, in the view of the Jews, the name Son of God, or that calling God his Father, implied equality with God. The Jews were the best interpreters of their own language, and as Jesus did not deny the correctness of their interpretations, it follows that he meant to be so understood. See Joh_10:29-38. The interpretation of the Jews was a very natural and just one. He not only said that God was his Father, but he said that he had the same right to work on the Sabbath that God had; that by the same authority, and in the same manner, he could dispense with the obligation of the day. They had now two pretences for seeking to kill him - one for making himself equal with God, which they considered blasphemy, and the other for violating the Sabbath. For each of these the law pronounced death, Num_15:35; Lev_24:11-14. (Barnes)

Jesus claimed divinity, he never lied, his miracles, death, resurrection, and ascension are the evidence. I believe the one omnipresent God is manifest in heaven, on earth and in our hearts in the form appropriate to the environment, be it physical or spiritual.
 
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JohnPaul

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Actually, what I have is a strong dislike for is the lies that masquerade as Christianity. Jesus himself forewarned that the same kind of apostasy that occurred in Judaism, would also occur in Christianity. A counterfeit form of the Christian Faith was to be sown by the devil (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) and these “weeds” which were sown long ago, were to grow along with the “wheat” in the same field....so both would exist in “the world” together, and identifying one from the other is vital....but not difficult.....you simply have to look at what they do, rather than what they say. Who are practicing what they preach? (Luke 6:46) Certainly not Christendom. (Matthew 7:21-23)

After Jesus’ death, the apostles worked hard to keep the truth from being corrupted by those who wanted to introduce their own ideas about many things. Paul said that there was one acting as a “restraint” against this tide whilst they were alive, but after their death and the final books of the Christian scriptures were written, that window was closed, and the restraint was removed leading to a full blown apostasy which took place within a very short period of time. From the second century on the ECF's began to deviate from the Bible’s teachings and a weakened form of the faith kept growing like the “weeds” that Jesus had predicted.

By the 4th century the situation was ripe for the Emperor of Rome to introduce a new “State Religion”....one Universal (Catholic) faith that would be enjoined on all of his subjects. But this was a political move rather than a religious one. The only way to unite his divided empire was to introduce a single religion that incorporated tenets of both faiths. This Emperor never became a baptized Christian himself until on his deathbed.

This religion was not Christian, but a sad fusion of pagan sun worship and a very weakened form of Christianity. The Emperor who introduced Roman Catholicism was a worshipper of Zeus all his life....and if you see statues of Zeus, you will see a striking resemblance to Catholic images of Jesus.

images
images


Since Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jew, for whom long hair was not permitted, (1 Corinthians 11:14) would this image really represent Jesus? And since images were forbidden in both Jewish and Christian worship, we have to wonder why Catholicism is full of them.....don’t we? (Exodus 20:4-5; 1 Corinthians 10:14)

At the Vatican, you will also see in St Peter’s Square a Babylonian sun wheel with an obelisk in the middle, which was imported from Egypt, originally representing the sun god Ra. Why is it there?

images
images

images
images
images

Sun worship is very visible in the Catholic religion and the main reason why it’s 'holy day' was moved to “Sunday”. It’s all hiding in plain sight if you know what you’re looking at. Even the bread is in the shape of the sun...

So, no....it is not “Christianity” that I have a problem with....it’s what masquerades as such....shown up in everything it believes and teaches. The whole system I believe, is a complete departure from all that Christ and his apostles taught. This is probably why they are so against “sola scriptura”....because they know that what they teach is not from the Bible.

Would you like to discuss those departures? And compare scripture with what the church teaches?
I do not doubt your sincerity for a moment, but I do have grave doubts about the foundations of your faith. I have come from Christendom, so I studied all those beliefs very carefully to prove to myself where they came from, and what the truth was. Are you willing to do that?


LOL....you said it....”Christianity, which has been around for 2,000 years is not teaching what is biblical”...I couldn’t agree more.

The Bible is not the word of man, but the word of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).....no human is responsible for its contents and I can assure you of one thing....not a word in those scriptures was penned by a Catholic writer. Every book was written by a Jew....even the NT.


You have never done any study in the book of Daniel? His prophesies pertain to “the time of the end” which we are living in right now. It was at this time that God said he would ‘purify, cleanse and refine’ his worshippers....yet not all would consent to the cleansing, preferring to stick to their evil ways, like the Pharisees of old.

“As for you, Daniel, keep these words secret, and seal the book until the time of the end. Many shall fall away, and evils shall increase.”. . . . I heard what was said but I did not understand, so I asked, “My lord, what will be the outcome of all these things?” He replied, “Go on your way, Daniel, for these words are to be kept secret and remain sealed until the end time. “Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will persist in their evil ways.” (Daniel 12:4,8-10 - New Catholic Bible)

History is repeating, but the majority cannot see it...again, just like it was in the first century....the Jews rejected the truth based on what their defective religious leaders told them, and lost their place in God’s kingdom. It will happen again....


I feel exactly the same way about you guys.....:(
“Few” Jesus said, are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) Can you tell me why?
Amen @Aunty Jane, the Catholic religion has adopted a lot of it's rituals from the Egyptian religions.
 

Davy

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Is that what you see? Do you believe that what you see is always what God sees?


There you are again with that last sentence above. You moved... off of God's Word again, and into your 'own' philosophical thinking.


 

amadeus

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Hello Amadeus, the other day we spoke about human gods. It was an idiom whereby people elevated themselves to a divine status. Pharaoh was the "son of Ra" and Julius Caesar was known as "son of god." As far as we are concerned we can forget all that jiggery-pokery, but that was current at the time of Christ and the Jews were intent on using it against Jesus.

Mat_27:43 (KJV) He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Joh_10:36 (KJV) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Jesus said he was the Son of God, (see above) he also spoke of his Father, and the Father spoke of his beloved Son. Jesus also claimed he was the I AM and that he existed before Abraham. We need to believe Jesus, accept God's Word and not deny it.

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (Joh 10:32-38 KJV)


Exposition
Making himself equal with God - This shows that, in the view of the Jews, the name Son of God, or that calling God his Father, implied equality with God. The Jews were the best interpreters of their own language, and as Jesus did not deny the correctness of their interpretations, it follows that he meant to be so understood. See Joh_10:29-38. The interpretation of the Jews was a very natural and just one. He not only said that God was his Father, but he said that he had the same right to work on the Sabbath that God had; that by the same authority, and in the same manner, he could dispense with the obligation of the day. They had now two pretences for seeking to kill him - one for making himself equal with God, which they considered blasphemy, and the other for violating the Sabbath. For each of these the law pronounced death, Num_15:35; Lev_24:11-14. (Barnes)

Jesus claimed divinity, he never lied, his miracles, death, resurrection, and ascension are the evidence. I believe the one omnipresent God is manifest in heaven, on earth and in our hearts in the form appropriate to the environment, be it physical or spiritual.
You have done well here. But... please do not expect that my course has been changed significantly. Someone on the forum recently mentioned that to be Divine is not necessarily the same as to be God. Those particular words were someone else's but the idea was already in me.

What can we do with our words after we have already spoken them? Not much for they have already gone out from us. Is this also the case with the One almighty God?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" John 1:14

People can make something more out of that than what it says... at least what it says to me... but I have heard I guess it all before, but on this point, not from God. He gives the increase!
 

Cooper

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You have done well here. But... please do not expect that my course has been changed significantly. Someone on the forum recently mentioned that to be Divine is not necessarily the same as to be God. Those particular words were someone else's but the idea was already in me.

What can we do with our words after we have already spoken them? Not much for they have already gone out from us. Is this also the case with the One almighty God?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" John 1:14

People can make something more out of that than what it says... at least what it says to me... but I have heard I guess it all before, but on this point, not from God. He gives the increase!
Well, the word divine was mine, and it was in connexion with humans, so I wouldn't let that put you off, but hey ho, whatever will be, will be.
.
 
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amadeus

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There you are again with that last sentence above. You moved... off of God's Word again, and into your 'own' philosophical thinking.
I really have not delved into what men call philosophy in 50 years. You call it philosophical thinking. I call it the voice of God as I talk to Him and read the scriptures every day before doing anything else. What a mighty God we serve!

Then there is going to the lowest room empty and letting Him fill or refill or change as is His wont.


"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:2-4
 
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Cooper

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I really have not delved into what men call philosophy in 50 years. You call it philosophical thinking. I call it the voice of God as I talk to H im and read the scriptures every day before doing anything else. What a mighty God we serve!

Then there is going to the lowest room empty and letting Him fill or refill or change as is His wont.


"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:2-4
I am sorry Amadeus but I have to ask if it is alright for the sheep to follow Him only part of the way.
.
 

Wrangler

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I am sorry Amadeus but I have to ask if it is alright for the sheep to follow Him only part of the way.
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Your question is that of a Task Master.

I have a granddaughter who will be 12 months old next month. She's the apple of my eye but I know she cannot follow me all the way. It's a little silly to think she could follow the Son of God all the way either.

I think that is the proper orientation to have, not that of a Task Master.
 
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Davy

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I really have not delved into what men call philosophy in 50 years. You call it philosophical thinking. I call it the voice of God as I talk to Him and read the scriptures every day before doing anything else. What a mighty God we serve!

Then there is going to the lowest room empty and letting Him fill or refill or change as is His wont.


"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:2-4

We have enough single verse preachers out there already, quoting one verse and then presenting their own philosophical treatise on it, when often their presentation is totally skewed from the one verse within the Bible chapter context where it is written.

Why don't those kind of preachers just go ahead and say, "Now I gave you hint of The Word. If you want more, give some more money!"

 

Cooper

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We have enough single verse preachers out there already, quoting one verse and then presenting their own philosophical treatise on it, when often their presentation is totally skewed from the one verse within the Bible chapter context where it is written.

Why don't those kind of preachers just go ahead and say, "Now I gave you hint of The Word. If you want more, give some more money!"
That's not Amadeus though, but like millions of others, doubtless he learnt about the One God, without it being explained to him that One house comprises hundreds of bricks, and like the grains of sand on One beech that make One nation. The number of cells in our body must be countless, and each cell has its own place in the whole, but we are One. We have kidneys, liver, lungs, and a heart but we are One person. Is the multi-faceted omnipresent God in heaven and on earth, a single-celled being who can morph into a rock or a person? God can do all things. There is more to the Almighty than we can ever imagine.
 
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amadeus

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I am sorry Amadeus but I have to ask if it is alright for the sheep to follow Him only part of the way.
.
Can a sheep go astray?

"How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?"
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish" Matt 18:12-14

So then if the sheep does stray, the Shepherd does not give up on him but seeks to find him and bring him back into the fold.

There are people apparently following God who choose to stop even though the fire or cloud is moving. The flock stays with the pillar of cloud or fire. We need to stay with flock following also that pillar. [see Exodus 13:21]
 

Davy

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That's not Amadeus though, but like millions of others, doubtless he learnt about the One God, without it being explained to him that One house comprises hundreds of bricks, and like the grains of sand on One beech. The number of cells in our body must be countless, and each cell has its own place in the whole, but we are One. Is the multi-faceted God in heaven and on earth, a single-celled being who can morph into a rock or a person? It would be foolish to think so.
.

No one can depend on a sole Scripture to understand about The Father, and The Son, and The Holy Spirit as The One GOD. To even come just a little close to understanding it, one must 'stay' in ALL of God's Word like a workman. Sorry, but those who deny Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh, simply are omitting necessary Scripture.
 

amadeus

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We have enough single verse preachers out there already, quoting one verse and then presenting their own philosophical treatise on it, when often their presentation is totally skewed from the one verse within the Bible chapter context where it is written.

Why don't those kind of preachers just go ahead and say, "Now I gave you hint of The Word. If you want more, give some more money!"
My friend, I am 78 years old and serving God as best I can by a daily surrender. I have preached and taught others in churches in the past [last time three years ago] but I have never received a penny from any man for that.

If you disagree with my understanding of the scriptures and God that is your privilege, but please do not doubt my integrity or my purpose. I strive daily to make my purpose equal to God's for me.

My retirement income from my secular employment is not excessive, but it is more than adequate for me and my wife. We never have received, nor do we now expect, nor do we ask for or need material support from anyone.

For more than 40 years I have read all of the Bible continuously in three languages. I do not take my own understandings from any one verse, but from all of the verses as God allows and shows me.

If you do not want to hear where I am, then do not read my posts or ask me any questions. I do not insist that anyone agree with me.

Give God the glory!
 

Davy

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My friend, I am 78 years old and serving God as best I can by a daily surrender. I have preached and taught others in churches in the past [last time three years ago] but I have never received a penny from any man for that.

If you disagree with my understanding of the scriptures and God that is your privilege, but please do not doubt my integrity or my purpose. I strive daily to make my purpose equal to God's for me.

My retirement income from my secular employment is not excessive, but it is more than adequate for me and my wife. We never have received, nor do we now expect, nor do we ask for or need material support from anyone.

For more than 40 years I have read all of the Bible continuously in three languages. I do not take my own understandings from any one verse, but from all of the verses as God allows and shows me.

If you do not want to hear where I am, then do not read my posts or ask me any questions. I do not insist that anyone agree with me.

Give God the glory!

All that is irrelevant to your disbelief that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ. And that is... the matter, because to believe Jesus is The Christ is to believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh and that Jesus is co-equal with The Father. That is what Apostle John was teaching in 1 John 2.

 

amadeus

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All that is irrelevant to your disbelief that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ. And that is... the matter, because to believe Jesus is The Christ is to believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh and that Jesus is co-equal with The Father. That is what Apostle John was teaching in 1 John 2.
The Trinity
 

Wrangler

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because to believe Jesus is The Christ is to believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh
Saying it doesn't make it true.

We know Jesus is not God because Jesus died.
  1. Why did the resurrected Jesus say he was going to his God @ John 20:17 if he were God?
  2. Why did Jesus say his Father is the only true God @ John 17:3 if he were God?
  3. Why did the resurrected Jesus, in heaven, given all authority, receive a revelation from God @ Rev 1:1, if he were God?
 

Cooper

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Can a sheep go astray?

"How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?"
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish" Matt 18:12-14

So then if the sheep does stray, the Shepherd does not give up on him but seeks to find him and bring him back into the fold.

There are people apparently following God who choose to stop even though the fire or cloud is moving. The flock stays with the pillar of cloud or fire. We need to stay with flock following also that pillar. [see Exodus 13:21]
But Amadeus, you know your Bible. How many days does it say the Good Shepherd cares for us? He cares for us ALL the days of our life. This is the God of David, Your God. Jesus is that same Good Shepherd who David knew. Say, "Praise His Glorious Name. Thank You, Lord Jesus, for being my Shepherd, all the days of my life!"

God bless.
.
 
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amadeus

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But Amadeus, you know your Bible. How many days does it say the Good Shepherd cares for us? He cares for us ALL the days of our life. This is the God of David, Your God. Jesus is that same Good Shepherd who David knew. Say, "Praise His Glorious Name. Thank You, Lord Jesus, for being my Shepherd, all the days of my life!"

God bless.
.
Sorry, I guess I misunderstood what you were asking. There is also this:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matt 10:22