The Trinity

[Wrangler]

If you are unable to clarify all of this for me to show why you believe why the scriptures overwhelmingly support the existence of only a Trinity, then perhaps you really should at least withdraw you use of the word, 'overwhelmingly'.

They will never concede. It's the narrative that's important.

I've run numerous laps on points already refuted with trinitarians. The pretend when I say the trinity is not in the Bible, I am only referring to the word itself. Several assert "everything" in the Bible points to it. Others claim figurative language is explicit at the same time ignoring explicit verses that undermine their doctrine.

The most common tactic is to sweep the table of the offending verses and replace the subject of discussion to the more vague and figurative verses they prefer. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Wrangler]

Your last sentence is because you don't understand the Trinity.

Rejecting the idea is not the same as not understanding it.

Jesus being at God's right hand is a metaphor for being with God as His annointed one

You do not understand language usage. Whenever God is in a verse in comparison to Jesus, it proves that Jesus is not God. You cannot be "with" God if you are God. You cannot be at God's right hand - literally or figuratively - if you are God.

One thing you are right about is that Jesus is God's Anointed. Yet, you do not understand language usage. God anointed Jesus. It means that Jesus is not God. The subject of the sentence is God. He is doing the acting. God is doing the anointing. Who is God anointing? The object of the sentence is Jesus. Jesus is passive, being acted upon.

Subjects of sentences are not objects of sentences. They are not co-equal, co-eternal or co-substantial. This is a demonstrable fact. Jesus died. This is how we know he is not God. At every turn Trinitarians have to abuse:
Definition
Logic
Language Usage

Jesus is the Son of God. By definition, this means he is NOT God. No one is the son of themselves. Compare to Hunter is the son of Joe Biden.

 

[Wrangler]

This is a demonstrable fact. Jesus died.

One other point I have to make is the theological significance of Jesus not being God cannot be overstated. If Jesus were God, it destroys the Good News.

If God appeared in human form and only appeared to die but did not, the inescapable theological conclusion is that in trinity land no man - who was only a man - has ever been resurrected in a glorified body. That this happened is our guarantee that God's promise was fulfilled. See Acts 3:18-22 and below.


30 But that was not the end: God raised Him from the dead, 31 and over a period of many days, He appeared to those who had been His companions from the beginning of their journey in Galilee until its end in Jerusalem. They are now witnesses to everyone. 32 We are here to bring you the good news of God’s promise to our ancestors, 33 which He has now fulfilled for our children by raising Jesus. Consider the promises fulfilled in Jesus. The psalmist says, “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.”
Acts 3:18-22 The Voice

 

[amadeus]

They will never concede. It's the narrative that's important.

I've run numerous laps on points already refuted with trinitarians. The pretend when I say the trinity is not in the Bible, I am only referring to the word itself. Several assert "everything" in the Bible points to it. Others claim figurative language is explicit at the same time ignoring explicit verses that undermine their doctrine.

The most common tactic is to sweep the table of the offending verses and replace the subject of discussion to the more vague and figurative verses they prefer. Rinse and repeat.

What bothers me perhaps more than anything is the absolute stand that too many people take in favor a Trinity... when at best they hold that doctrine/belief only by faith. [My own beliefs are also by faith, but the lean in another direction on this.] While, I believe that I understand why some sincere people embrace the Trinity so strongly, I also know that changing their minds or hearts is usually beyond me.

The apparently sincere ones who do not bring up the subject with me I generally leave alone in that area unless I am given reason to do otherwise.

That people come up with a Trinity and say it is from the Bible causes me at times to wonder. [I have probably heard all of the ideas, verses and arguments coming from the other side.]

Did they start their Bible searches about the nature of God and who Jesus is from nothing or did they start with some preconceived ideas and/or doctrines already held? I believe that, usually, the latter is the case.

I really would be surprised to see anyone come up with a Trinity based on an unbiased and honest Bible search. But...who starts the search so clean as that?

I guess I was blessed [I call it that!] in that my only Trinitarian background was as a Catholic with no actual Bible knowledge at all. When God really called me to Him it was through a 'Oneness Jesus Only' brother who lived for God like very few people I have known anywhere in any church. If they all lived like that, I might still be with them. That was 45 years ago and on a number of points of belief I know I now disagree with them doctrines. Through them I did learn to not jump on anyone's band wagon just to be accepted. It is better to walk alone among men.

What provokes a man to look at this issue honestly and without preconceived ideas?

 

[Wrangler]

It is better to walk alone among men.

Profound.

What provokes a man to look at this issue honestly and without preconceived ideas?

Honesty is more important even than not having pre-conceived ideas. The scientific method allows one to explicitly state - and hypothesis test preconceived ideas. For instance, many Christians are not aware that the trinity is not in the Bible. A man in his 80's was surprised when I told him. He always just assumed it.

He still believes in the trinity. But he has been shocked at the many verses that undermine it. Most recently is Rev 1:1. The resurrected Jesus, AFTER being given all authority in heaven and Earth, while in heaven is STILL not God! In that verse, God gives Jesus a revelation.

Knowing the trinity is not in the Bible should give cause to pause for ardent advocates. That it does not is troublesome. It means they put their doctrine over the actual word of God. I've written fairly extensively about the difference between explicit teaching in Scripture compared to merely verses that appear to support a doctrine one already holds. This distinction is sadly ignored by the more ardent advocates.

 

[amadeus]

Profound.

Honesty is more important even than not having pre-conceived ideas. The scientific method allows one to explicitly state - and hypothesis test preconceived ideas. For instance, many Christians are not aware that the trinity is not in the Bible. A man in his 80's was surprised when I told him. He always just assumed it.

He still believes in the trinity. But he has been shocked at the many verses that undermine it. Most recently is Rev 1:1. The resurrected Jesus, AFTER being given all authority in heaven and Earth, while in heaven is STILL not God! In that verse, God gives Jesus a revelation.

Knowing the trinity is not in the Bible should give cause to pause for ardent advocates. That it does not is troublesome. It means they put their doctrine over the actual word of God. I've written fairly extensively about the difference between explicit teaching in Scripture compared to merely verses that appear to support a doctrine one already holds. This distinction is sadly ignored by the more ardent advocates.

As a Catholic they never taught us from the Bible. I remember the nun, telling us about the Trinity, used a large preprinted chart picturing a three-leaf clover. That was probably in the early 1950's.

When I started to read the Bible for the first time in my life in 1976, I immediately started reading the whole Book. I have continued doing that regularly to this day. While I have changed my beliefs on several other points over the many years of reading and studying the Bible, I have never been able to see a Trinity in it... in spite of all those who have insisted it was there. I know their arguments for I have tried to listen to them. Few of them have listened seriously to mine. Only God gives any real increase... but even for that a heart must be open to Him.

 

[Wrangler]

I know their arguments

The trinitarian arguments are few and far between. It does not take long to hear them all. Again, their reliance on figurative verses over explicit verses that go against their doctrine is amazing.

One guy even claimed these verses actually supported the trinity. WTH?! So, I invited him to establish a rejection criteria for his hypothesis. What combination of words would go against the trinity? No answer ... Cricket. Cricket. Cricket. Circular Reasoning case study.

 

[farouk]

Overwhelmingly? To you perhaps, but even in that "perhaps" consider further on this issue if you would.

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

@farouk After you have spoken something with your mouth, are your words at that point a part of you even though they did originate with you?

How are the words spoken by God different than the words you speak? Do you really know? Did God's words become a human body? What were they prior to that? What were your words before you spoke them?

You use the term "overwhelming" perhaps too easily or quickly if you cannot give me clear answers to my questions.

One thing I see in the sum total of the scriptures is that our God is One God. Most of the many scriptures supporting the One God idea make no reference whatever in themselves to the notion of a Trinity... not to me. As to Deity, what is that if not the One God? Why is it that Jesus must Deity overwhelmingly and separate in some way from the One God, that is the Father God?

Is the One omnipotent God unable to form a man who able to be meek and great among men?
What is the difference between Moses and Jesus? What is the difference between Elijah and Jesus?

In each case why would you say the one is only a man with gifts from God while the other must be God?

The Word becomes flesh! What is it we are becoming by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus? If Jesus is God, are we becoming Gods also?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

So then are we moving toward being part of a Multiplicity in God instead to sticking to the One God or a Trinity in God?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:" John 17:20-22

If you are unable to clarify all of this for me to show why you believe why the scriptures overwhelmingly support the existence of only a Trinity, then perhaps you really should at least withdraw you use of the word, 'overwhelmingly'.

If you simply say I do know... I believe, but I do not know, would that not be closer to the truth if you cannot clearly answer my questions? No one else can clearly answer them either, so you would certainly not be alone in that...

God in Three Persons is indeed seen overwhelmingly in the NT.

Examples abound; the end of Matthew 28 in the wording of the Great Commission; John's Gospel, chapter 1 and especially chapters 13 thru 17; Romans 8; the Epistle to the Colossians; John's First Epistle, etc.

The Lord Jesus is truly unique.

"This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased" (Matthew 3.17).

"For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell" (Colossians 1.19) ; "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell".(Colossians 2.9). "

"In Thee most perfectly expressed
The Father’s glories shine;
Of the full deity possessed,
Eternally divine" (J. Conder)

God in Three Persons and the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ are so deeply present in Scripture and have been held by so many generations of Christians that they are truly non-negotiable.

 

[amadeus]

God in Three Persons is indeed seen overwhelmingly in the NT.

Not by me. You did not answer my questions.

Examples abound; the end of Matthew 28 in the wording of the Great Commission; John's Gospel, chapter 1 and especially chapters 13 thru 17; Romans 8; the Epistle to the Colossians; John's First Epistle, etc.

"For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell" (Colossians 1.19) ; "For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell".(Colossians 2.9). "

"In Thee most perfectly expressed
The Father’s glories shine;
Of the full deity possessed,
Eternally divine" (J. Conder)

I could go through each verse you have cited and amplify but it would take time. You along with many others have already decided as if the majority decides what is truth. Why bother with the Holy Ghost when someone else has already done it for us? Why was it that so many left the Catholic Church after Luther posted his thesis?

Ever wonder why most of the 600,000 died in the wilderness in spite of having the law written on stone by the finger of God?

God in Three Persons and the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ are so deeply present in Scripture and have been held by so many generations of Christians that they are truly non-negotiable.

Yes, non-negotiable because of the majority of men have spoken over the generations. Trust in men because they certainly know as did the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees 2000 years ago in Jerusalem.

Just throw out the scriptures reading other wise and follow the biggest crowd of people...? Jesus would have walked on alone before following in the ways of men:

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

 

[farouk]

Not by me. You did not answer my questions.

I could go through each verse you have cited and amplify but it would take time. You along with many others have already decided as if the majority decides what is truth. Why bother with the Holy Ghost when someone else has already done it for us? Why was it that so many left the Catholic Church after Luther posted his thesis?

Ever wonder why most of the 600,000 died in the wilderness in spite of having the law written on stone by the finger of God?

Yes, non-negotiable because of the majority of men have spoken over the generations. Trust in men because they certainly know as did the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees 2000 years ago in Jerusalem.

Just throw out the scriptures reading other wise and follow the biggest crowd of people...? Jesus would have walked on alone before following in the ways of men:

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" John 6:66-67

@amadeus With respect, I find your post rather sad. If you still cannot accept the full and unambiguous Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and the glorious fact of God in Three Persons, most clearly attested in Scripture, there is nothing I can do to help. (I still hope that there is merely some misunderstanding between us, but I fear not.)

 

[GodsGrace]

my point was that they might amount to the same thing

I don't understand.
To me FORCING THEIR WAY INTO THE KINGDOM means that ANYONE wants to be allowed into the Kingdom of God (here on earth)
but they are not willing to follow the teachings of Jesus, who came here specifically for that purpose...to create God's Kingdom here on earth.

(unless you're speaking of heaven, which I know you're not too sure even exists).

 

[GodsGrace]

The trinitarian error is to confuse roles with natures. How we relate is infinite. It does not make one being infinite or 3 persons. It does not change there is one God, the Father.

No confusion Wrangler.
God has ONE NATURE.
He shows Himself to us as 3 distinct "Persons".
Each of those persons has His own role.
And I think you mean finite...not infinite?

And yes, there is only One God.
Every Christian believes this.

 

[Wrangler]

God in Three Persons is indeed seen overwhelmingly in the NT.

Examples abound; the end of Matthew 28 in the wording of the Great Commission

The wording of the Great Commission does not even state the nature of God! If one says, "in the name of motherhood, apple pie and the flag" do these things in no way is that a statement of the nature of God. How are you making the connection?

The answer, it seems, is that you are desperate to see things that aren't there.

Your reply is typical. You assert it is overwhelming, then throw a bunch of verses out hoping something sticks but not one can hold up to scrutiny in meeting a normal language usage standard, such as "The nature of God is 3 persons in one Being" in The Gospel of Farouk 1:1.

 

[Wrangler]

And yes, there is only One God.
Every Christian believes this.

But early Christians certainly did not believe in the trinity as evidenced by its absence in Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

God has ONE NATURE.
He shows Himself to us as 3 distinct "Persons".

Nope. Pure imposing doctrine onto unitarian text.

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus With respect, I find your post rather sad. If you still cannot accept the full and unambiguous Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and the glorious fact of God in Three Persons, most clearly attested in Scripture, there is nothing I can do to help. (I still hope that there is merely some misunderstanding between us, but I fear not.)

This attitude is why I do not get into a lot of debates anymore. People are so often stuck in their ATs and Nehushtans that they have little or no interest in really conversing or discussing. They want to declare and have everyone accept their declarations without discussion. So many have decided that they no longer live by faith but by knowledge. So many have decided that while apostle Paul in his epistle admitted personally to still seeing as through darkened glass, they know and see face to face...even while admitting they are still sinning against God. Is that not a contradiction? Who is growing closer to God with that?
Help us dear Lord!

 

[GodsGrace]

Rejecting the idea is not the same as not understanding it.



You do not understand language usage. Whenever God is in a verse in comparison to Jesus, it proves that Jesus is not God. You cannot be "with" God if you are God. You cannot be at God's right hand - literally or figuratively - if you are God.

One thing you are right about is that Jesus is God's Anointed. Yet, you do not understand language usage. God anointed Jesus. It means that Jesus is not God. The subject of the sentence is God. He is doing the acting. God is doing the anointing. Who is God anointing? The object of the sentence is Jesus. Jesus is passive, being acted upon.

Subjects of sentences are not objects of sentences. They are not co-equal, co-eternal or co-substantial. This is a demonstrable fact. Jesus died. This is how we know he is not God. At every turn Trinitarians have to abuse:
Definition
Logic
Language Usage

Jesus is the Son of God. By definition, this means he is NOT God. No one is the son of themselves. Compare to Hunter is the son of Joe Biden.

I understand language really well Wrangler - I'm sorry if you don't think so.

You had made a statement which shows a misunderstanding of the Trinity...this is not uncommon for those that believe as you do.

You say that whenever God is in a verse in comparison to Jesus, it proves that Jesus is not God.
What does this sentence mean?:
John 20:28
28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (referring to Jesus)

Titus 2:13
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.


Also, could you explain why Jesus was killed?

 

[GodsGrace]

But early Christians certainly did not believe in the trinity as evidenced by its absence in Scripture.

It is not absent in scripture.
There are others that believe as you do,,,but before we proceed,,,
could I ask you Who you DO believe Jesus is?

And then I could show you where the Trinity is found in scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. Pure imposing doctrine onto unitarian text.

Please remember to tell me why Jesus was killed...

 

[GodsGrace]

The wording of the Great Commission does not even state the nature of God! If one says, "in the name of motherhood, apple pie and the flag" do these things in no way is that a statement of the nature of God. How are you making the connection?

The answer, it seems, is that you are desperate to see things that aren't there.

Your reply is typical. You assert it is overwhelming, then throw a bunch of verses out hoping something sticks but not one can hold up to scrutiny in meeting a normal language usage standard, such as "The nature of God is 3 persons in one Being" in The Gospel of Farouk 1:1.

The above is for @farouk

But it's kind of funny...
If someone said IN THE NAME OF MOTHERHOOD, APPLE PIE AND THE FLAG...

It WOULD mean that:

MOTHERHOOD exists
APPLE PIE exists
THE FLAG exists