The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

[TribulationSigns]

5. How will they be killed ? Answer, by the weight of collapsing buildings

1. How will they be killed?

You answered: “By the weight of collapsing buildings.”

Again, where does Revelation 11:13 say that?

It doesn’t mention collapsing buildings, people trapped beneath rubble, or anyone being crushed to death. Those details are being added to the text.

These are not 7,000 people physically killed by an earthquake. The earthquake signifies God’s judgment—the shaking of the unfaithful house of God.

Remember the distinction Revelation already established:

“Hurt not...those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.” — Revelation 9:4

These are people who remain WITHOUT the seal of God. Their being “slain” signifies coming under spiritual judgment, not being crushed by concrete and stone.

Revelation 9:6 even uses striking death language:

“And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it...”

How can men physically seek death after supposedly being physically dead? Clearly your interpretation is flawed! Revelation can use death imagery spiritually.

This judgment is that God gives the unsealed over to deception so that they continue believing the lie and cannot find salvation in Christ. Compare:

“God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.” — 2 Thessalonians 2:11

So no, Revelation 11:13 does not say they are “killed by the weight of collapsing buildings.”

That is your assumption.

The professed Christians, including the false prophets and christs, are spiritually slain under God’s judgment—given over to deception because they are without His seal. The earthquake represents the shaking and judgment of God’s unfaithful house, not a literal building-collapse disaster.

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

6. Who are the rest ? Answer, the survivors of the earthquake, who were frightened by it.

7. Why did they give glory to God of Heaven ? Answer, they were frightened, hoping that God would not issue another judgment for their misdeeds of celebrating the two witnesses deaths.

1. Who are “the rest”?

You answered: “The survivors of the earthquake.”

1. Why did they give glory to God?

You answered that they were frightened and hoped God would not send another judgment.


Very bad speculations! Where does the text say they were hoping to escape another judgment? It doesn’t. Again, that is speculation.

Listen, “the rest” are the Elect—the ones God has already sealed before the judgment will witness His terrible judgment upon the unfaithful church. Their fear is GODLY FEAR as they behold what God has done to his unfaithful church.

Revelation 18 gives us the same judgment imagery concerning Babylon:

“Standing afar off for the fear of her torment... Alas, alas, that great city Babylon... for in one hour is thy judgment come.” — Revelation 18:10

Notice again: FEAR, the GREAT CITY, and the ONE HOUR of judgment.

Likewise, Luke 21:21–27 describes fleeing, days of vengeance, great distress, wrath, fear, and the powers of heaven being shaken.

So the Elect stand apart from the judgment and behold with fear what God has done to the unfaithful church. There is also sorrow in seeing what was once God's house become a spiritually desolate shell under judgment. For example, the elect stand far off in fear of the great terrors that have come upon her, and we mourn for her. For what she use to be, and for what bankrupt desolate shell it is now. Just as if someone was being tortured/tormented and we could watch and yet we4 cann't do anything about it. That is the scenario! We stand in fear of God's terror there, and mourn for the church that was once God's precious bride. Selah!

And why do they give glory to God?

Because they recognize that GOD'S JUDGMENT IS RIGHTEOUS—not because they are merely earthquake survivors hoping another building does not fall on them like you think!

Compare Revelation 19:1–2:

“Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments.”

That fits the spiritual context far better: God's Elect witness His judgment, fear Him, and give Him glory because His judgments are true and righteous. Selah!

Consider my explanation for seven questions carefully! And stop allowing your carnal mind (and your charts) to be your interpreter.

 

[Jay Ross]

So if you claim the Two Witnesses were Jesus and John the Baptist, you have some serious questions to answer:

Smoke screen statement

Who exactly is this Beast?

The four beasts, i.e. the judged heavenly hosts, who after their stint in the Bottomless Pit act in unison during the Little while period.

Why was the Beast in the bottomless pit in the first place?

Isaiah 24:21-22

When was the Beast put there?

The single beast entity was not put into the Bottomless Pit, but rather it was formed in the Bottomless pit from the four beasts of Daniel 2:2-12 during the 1,000-year period, before the Bottomless pit was unlocked at the start of the Little while period.

How long was the Beast restrained there?

Isaiah 24:22 tells us for many days to await the time of their punishment. In Rev 20:1-3 we are told that the Bottomless pit was locked for1,000 years before it was unlocked to release all the entities who where Judged around the time of Armageddon

Are you claiming Herod and/or Pilate was this Beast who “ascended out of the bottomless pit”?

No, Herod and/or Pilate where not judged at the time of Armageddon. The died some 2,000 years before the Armageddon event around 2044/2045 AD.

How does ONE Beast make war against and kill BOTH witnesses when John was killed by Herod and Jesus was condemned under Pilate?

It sounds like your theory is beginning to fall apart with this question.

And where does Matthew 27:52–53 say John the Baptist was among the resurrected saints? It doesn’t.

About the only true assumption that you have made.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

Wait... what?!

Revelation 11:7 says:

“And when they have finished their testimony, THE BEAST THAT RISES FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT will make war on them and conquer them and kill them.”

So if you claim the Two Witnesses were Jesus and John the Baptist, you have some serious questions to answer:

1. Who exactly is this Beast?

Satan himself, and the fallen angels with him.
The propheic 4th Beast in Daniel 9, is the Roman Empire, one of many of the goverments that satan has power over.
Appointed by Rome, Herod Antipas (who had John beheaded) was the official Tetrarch over Galilee.
Pontious Pilate, who had Jesus crucified, was govenor over Judea.

"Roman application: Over time, Rome used the title for minor, dependent princes or governors who held local power over small territories but ranked lower than a full king. (Quoted from AI).
.

1. Why was the Beast in the bottomless pit in the first place?

The bottomless [unending] pit [grave] is this earth. It is the place of satan's eternal existence, until it is destroyed with him in it. Ever since Jesus' death and resurrection [the shedding of His Holy blood], Satan has been permanently bound to this earth of "walking up and down in it" for the present period of the symbolic 1000 years of God's Grace and "longsuffering".
Ever since then, he no longer is allowed to enter into God's Heaven, nor is he allowed to enter into anyone, who has been purchased by Heaven, whereby the Godhead does infill.

1. When was the Beast put there?

Immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection.

1. How long was the Beast restrained there?r

Until after the symbolic 1000 years are expired, which is when AFTER the gospel of the kingdom shall have been Preached to all the world, then shall satan be loosed for a little season for 42 months.

1. Are you claiming Herod and/or Pilate was this Beast who “ascended out of the bottomless pit”?

No! They are only the tools of satan's ability to control this world of men, and to wage war on whomsoever he desires. Sort of like someone we all know today! There are MANY antichrists, not just one!!

1. How does ONE Beast make war against and kill BOTH witnesses when John was killed by Herod and Jesus was condemned under Pilate?

Both Herod and Pilate were appointed by the 4th beast, the Roman Empire, to rule in their jurisdictions.

And where does Matthew 27:52–53 say John the Baptist was among the resurrected saints? It doesn’t.

John the Baptist was physically born HAVING the Holy Spirit already before birth. Everyone who DIES HAVING the Holy Spirit, "...shall never die...".
John 11:26
And whosoever liveth AND believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now, if you can, do you think that you can "suffer" [cause/ keep] anyone who HAS the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, to be buried, entombed and to STAY THERE? No!!
Even today, we who are born again of the Holy Spirit, are not literally in the grave after the death and decomposition of our mortal bodies. John 11:26.

You are connecting Jesus, John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate, and Matthew 27 to Revelation 11 without Scripture actually making those identifications. Bad move!

I presented much scripture already, and as you can see, I am still doing so.

Before declaring that you have identified the Two Witnesses, reconcile your interpretation with Revelation 11:7 and the Beast who ascends from the bottomless pit.

In the above, I just did.

Otherwise, this is speculation, not Scripture interpreting Scripture.

Well of course to you, it wouldn't be to your understanding of how you like Truth to be presented to you. It must be accomplished through the wisdom of men, and how THEY interpret scripture in their denominational Bible Colleges of church-ianity. Personally, I operate by what the Holy Spirit teaches me, using the KJV, according to 1 Cor. 2:13.

1 John 22:7 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Earburner]

Smoke screen statement



The four beasts, i.e. the judged heavenly hosts, who after their stint in the Bottomless Pit act in unison during the Little while period.



Isaiah 24:21-22



The single beast entity was not put into the Bottomless Pit, but rather it was formed in the Bottomless pit from the four beasts of Daniel 2:2-12 during the 1,000-year period, before the Bottomless pit was unlocked at the start of the Little while period.



Isaiah 24:22 tells us for many days to await the time of their punishment. In Rev 20:1-3 we are told that the Bottomless pit was locked for1,000 years before it was unlocked to release all the entities who where Judged around the time of Armageddon



No, Herod and/or Pilate where not judged at the time of Armageddon. The died some 2,000 years before the Armageddon event around 2044/2045 AD.



It sounds like your theory is beginning to fall apart with this question.



About the only true assumption that you have made.

Shalom

In your post #243 you wrote in reference to John the Baptist:
"About the only true assumption that you have made."

EB's reply:
So then, you just said to @TribulationSigns that John the Baptist wasn't physically born HAVING the Holy Spirit already!!
Why are you agreeing with that understanding, when the proof of him being one of the Anointed Ones of Zech 4:14 is staring into the face of all of us.
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Smoke screen statement

Jay, Jay, Jay... you are confusing two different discussions. My post was a response to someone else (Earburner) who specifically claimed that Jesus and John the Baptist were the Two Witnesses. My questions were testing HIS interpretation. So calling my questions a “smoke screen” completely misses the context.

And your answer introduces an entirely different theory that does not solve the problem.

The four beasts of Daniel are NOT identified as the singular “beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit” in Revelation 11:7. You have to demonstrate that connection from Scripture, not simply assert that four beasts somehow merge into one beast while inside the abyss.

Also, Isaiah 24:21–22 does NOT say these beings were cast into “the bottomless pit” of Revelation 20. Isaiah says:

“They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”

Where does Isaiah say this is THE bottomless pit of Revelation? Where does it say Daniel’s four beasts are imprisoned there? Where does it say those four beasts eventually combine into ONE beast?

It doesn’t.

And there is another problem: you said Revelation 20:1–3 teaches that the bottomless pit was locked for 1,000 years and then opened to release “all the entities” imprisoned there.

Read it carefully. Revelation 20:1–3 specifically says SATAN is bound, cast into the bottomless pit, shut up and sealed so that HE should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years are fulfilled. Then HE is released for a little season.

It does not say Daniel’s four beasts were thrown in there and spent 1,000 years combining into the beast of Revelation 11.

That entire construction has been added to the text.

So before accusing my interpretation of “falling apart,” establish yours from Scripture:

Show me where Daniel’s four beasts are cast into Revelation’s bottomless pit.

Show me where those four beasts become ONE beast inside that pit.

Show me where Isaiah 24 identifies its “pit” specifically as Revelation’s abyss.

Show me where Revelation 20 says all these entities—not Satan—are released after the thousand years.

Otherwise you are connecting unrelated passages, filling the gaps with assumptions, and then presenting the resulting construction as though Scripture explicitly teaches it.

That is exactly how Scripture gets misapplied and false doctrine gets built.

And again, none of this answers the original person’s claim that Jesus and John the Baptist were the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11.

Selah, Jay!

 

[TribulationSigns]

When I asked you when the beast was cast into the bottomless pit, you answered:

"Immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection."

Really? Then your own timeline contradicts Revelation 11:7.

Revelation 11:7 says:

“And WHEN THEY HAVE FINISHED THEIR TESTIMONY, the BEAST THAT RISES FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT will make WAR on them and CONQUER them and KILL them.”

Read the order carefully:

The Two Witnesses finish their testimony → the beast RISES from the bottomless pit → the beast makes war against them → overcomes them → kills them.

But according to your interpretation, after Jesus and John the Baptist had already been killed, the beast was supposedly cast back into the bottomless pit AGAIN “immediately after Jesus’ death and resurrection”?!?!

Seriously? So let me get this straight:

The beast comes OUT of the bottomless pit → kills the Two Witnesses → gets thrown BACK into the bottomless pit → and apparently we just ignore the sequence Revelation 11:7 actually gives us?

That is some impressive theological gymnastics.

Revelation 11:7 is straightforward: the witnesses FINISH their testimony, THEN the beast RISES OUT OF the bottomless pit, THEN makes war against them, overcomes them, and kills them.

You have the sequence backwards.

The beast cannot conveniently enter and exit the bottomless pit whenever your interpretation needs him to. Scripture must determine the interpretation—not the other way around.

Funny how “private interpretation” can turn a straightforward sequence into a revolving door at the bottomless pit.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I presented much scripture already, and as you can see, I am still doing so.

Yeah, I can see that. You’ve presented plenty of Scripture. Good job. However...the problem is not the amount of Scripture you quote; it is how you apply it. Quoting verse after verse does not establish a doctrine when those passages are taken out of their proper context and stitched together to support a conclusion they do not actually teach which is what you clearly are doing!

So yes, I got it. You have plenty of Scripture references. What you still need to demonstrate is that Scripture actually supports the connections you are making.

Shalom!

 

[Jay Ross]

Also, Isaiah 24:21–22 does NOT say these beings were cast into “the bottomless pit” of Revelation 20. Isaiah says:

“They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”

Lexicon



Interlinear



A list of 24 translation.

Please note that only 2 of the translations follow the translation that you quoted.

• 
  
• New International Version
  They will be herded together like prisoners bound in a dungeon; they will be shut up in prison and be punished after many days.
• New Living Translation
  They will be rounded up and put in prison. They will be shut up in prison and will finally be punished.
• English Standard Version
  They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished.
• Berean Standard Bible
  They will be gathered together like prisoners in a pit. They will be confined to a dungeon and punished after many days.
• Berean Literal Bible
  And they will be gathered together—a gathering of bound ones in the pit, and they will be shut up in the prison, and after a multitude of days they will be punished.
• King James Bible
  And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
• New King James Version
  They will be gathered together, As prisoners are gathered in the pit, And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished.
• New American Standard Bible
  They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.
• NASB 1995
  They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.
• NASB 1977
  And they will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.
• Legacy Standard Bible
  They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the pit, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.
• Amplified Bible
  They will be gathered together As prisoners [are gathered] in a dungeon; They will be shut up in prison, And after many days they will be visited and punished.
• Berean Annotated Bible
  They will be gathered together like prisoners in a pit. They will be confined to a dungeon and punished after many days.
• Christian Standard Bible
  They will be gathered together like prisoners in a pit. They will be confined to a dungeon; after many days they will be punished.
• Holman Christian Standard Bible
  They will be gathered together like prisoners in a pit. They will be confined to a dungeon; after many days they will be punished.
• American Standard Version
  And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison; and after many days shall they be visited.
• Contemporary English Version
  He will put them in a pit and keep them prisoner. Then later on, he will punish them.
• English Revised Version
  And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
• GOD'S WORD® Translation
  They'll be gathered like prisoners in a jail and locked in prison. After a long time they'll be punished.
• Good News Translation
  God will crowd kings together like prisoners in a pit. He will shut them in prison until the time of their punishment comes.
• International Standard Version
  They will be herded together into the Pit; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be punished.
• NET Bible
  They will be imprisoned in a pit, locked up in a prison, and after staying there for a long time, they will be punished.
• New Heart English Bible
  And they will be gathered, a gathering in a dungeon, and shall be shut up in the prison; and after many days shall they be visited.
• Webster's Bible Translation
  And they shall be gathered, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Please note that all of the above has been copied from the Bible Hub web site.

 

[Jay Ross]

@TribulationSigns

My understanding from scripture is that we are not told the entity type of the two Witnesses is in scripture. Any discussion of who the two witnesses are, is pointless.

Scriptural basis for the point that I made that the beast that rose up out of the Bottomless pit is an amalgamation of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12: -

Daniel 7:19-20: - 19 "Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

Rev 13:1-4: - 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marvelled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

ESV​

Rev 17:3-4: - 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

ESV​

Rev 17:7-9: - 7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
ESV

​

These will do for a start.

Sadly you want the proof to appear is the scriptures near to where you are looking for your confirmation of what you are considering to be God's revelation. To see God's revelation we need to read all of God's words to us.​

 

[TribulationSigns]

@TribulationSigns

My understanding from scripture is that we are not told the entity type of the two Witnesses is in scripture. Any discussion of who the two witnesses are, is pointless.

Wrong-o! It is absolutely important to understand who the Two Witnesses are, especially since Scripture tells us that the Beast from the bottomless pit makes war against them. None of God’s Word is pointless!

The Two Witnesses represent God’s faithful people (born again Christians), empowered to proclaim the Gospel until their testimony is finished. Then the Beast rises from the pit, overcomes them, and “kills” them—silencing their faithful testimony within the apostate congregation, the “great city.” Those not sealed by God are given over to deception and align themselves with the wicked world under judgment.

So yes, identifying the Two Witnesses matters greatly to understanding the prophecy.

Scriptural basis for the point that I made that the beast that rose up out of the Bottomless pit is an amalgamation of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12: -

Daniel 7:19-20: - 19 "Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

Rev 13:1-4: - 13:1 And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marvelled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

ESV​

Rev 17:3-4: - 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

ESV​

Rev 17:7-9: - 7 But the angel said to me, “Why do you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
ESV

​

These will do for a start.

Sadly you want the proof to appear is the scriptures near to where you are looking for your confirmation of what you are considering to be God's revelation. To see God's revelation we need to read all of God's words to us.​

Since you quoted God's Word on Daniel and Revelation, tell me then who are these beasts? And why do they appear again as Leopard, bear and lion into one beast of Revelation 13. What is "your" interpretation, inspired by Holy Spirit as you claimed as "teacher" on who these beasts really are? Will you end up starting with historical/geographical assumptions based on secular history and drawing boundaries, humm?

So yeah, Jay, let hear this from you since you brought it up.

 

[Earburner]

Yeah, I can see that. You’ve presented plenty of Scripture. Good job. However...the problem is not the amount of Scripture you quote; it is how you apply it.

Amazing, that is exactly what I said in my post #1. Were you quoting me, or were you attempting to be original?

Quoting verse after verse does not establish a doctrine when those passages are taken out of their proper context and stitched together to support a conclusion they do not actually teach which is what you clearly are doing!

Evidently, you really do not understand that the Mind of Christ is above the mechinations of "the wisdom of men", in the denominational Bible colleges.
God thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time, and is purposely not chronogical in many of His prophetic presentations.

So yes, I got it. You have plenty of Scripture references. What you still need to demonstrate is that Scripture actually supports the connections you are making.
Shalom!

I can not demonstrate scripture for how you should interpret it.
That is dependent upon which "mind" it is that you are listening to:
1. Your own mind?
2. The mind of Christ within you?
3. The minds of all who are taught from denominational Bible colleges?

 

[Jay Ross]

Since you quoted God's Word on Daniel and Revelation, tell me then who are these beasts? And why do they appear again as Leopard, bear and lion into one beast of Revelation 13. What is "your" interpretation, inspired by Holy Spirit as you claimed as "teacher" on who these beasts really are? Will you end up starting with historical/geographical assumptions based on secular history and drawing boundaries, humm?

So yeah, Jay, let hear this from you since you brought it up.

Paul in Ephesians 6:12 tells us who the beasts are: -

Ephesians 6:10-13: - 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.​

ESV​

​

In Daniel 7:2 we are introduced to the four wings of heaven.

Daniel 7:2: - 2 Daniel declared, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.

ESV​

Why are you and others trying to make everything difficult?

 

[Earburner]

When I asked you when the beast was cast into the bottomless pit, you answered:

"Immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection."

Really? Then your own timeline contradicts Revelation 11:7.

Revelation 11:7 says:

“And WHEN THEY HAVE FINISHED THEIR TESTIMONY, the BEAST THAT RISES FROM THE BOTTOMLESS PIT will make WAR on them and CONQUER them and KILL them.”

Read the order carefully:

The Two Witnesses finish their testimony → the beast RISES from the bottomless pit → the beast makes war against them → overcomes them → kills them.

But according to your interpretation, after Jesus and John the Baptist had already been killed, the beast was supposedly cast back into the bottomless pit AGAIN “immediately after Jesus’ death and resurrection”?!?!

Seriously? So let me get this straight:

The beast comes OUT of the bottomless pit → kills the Two Witnesses → gets thrown BACK into the bottomless pit → and apparently we just ignore the sequence Revelation 11:7 actually gives us?

That is some impressive theological gymnastics.

Revelation 11:7 is straightforward: the witnesses FINISH their testimony, THEN the beast RISES OUT OF the bottomless pit, THEN makes war against them, overcomes them, and kills them.

You have the sequence backwards.

The beast cannot conveniently enter and exit the bottomless pit whenever your interpretation needs him to. Scripture must determine the interpretation—not the other way around.

Funny how “private interpretation” can turn a straightforward sequence into a revolving door at the bottomless pit.

There is a difference of satan being cast out onto this earth, and that of being bound on this earth

You completely misunderstand that Satan was booted/cast out of heaven, and was committed to this earth long ago. His sentence of judgment by God, began at the time of his corrupting influence of lies, to deceive and tempt Adam and Eve to eat of the "Tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Here is God's judgment of punishment to him:
Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST shalt thou eat [figuratively] all the days of thy life:

As for satan being "bound" on this earth, yes ever since the death and resurrection of Jesus, for the figurative 1000 years, satan no longer has access to visit heaven and God's throne in heaven, nor can he enter into (possess) anyone who has been born again of God's Holy Spirit.

For every person who converts to Jesus Christ, Satan must leave that person, and therefore because the Holy Spirit now resides there, Satan can never again re-enter into them again.
See Luke 11:21-26, also Mat. 12:43-45

 

[TribulationSigns]

Amazing, that is exactly what I said in my post #1. Were you quoting me, or were you attempting to be original?

Neither. You seem to be confusing two very different points.

Your opening post argues that prophetic Scripture should be understood spiritually by “comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” Fine. My comment was addressing to someone else whether he are correctly applying the Scriptures you quote to his interpretation.
So no, I wasn’t quoting you or attempting to borrow something “original” from you. The distinction between quoting Scripture and rightly interpreting Scripture is hardly your invention.

Evidently, you really do not understand that the Mind of Christ is above the mechinations of "the wisdom of men", in the denominational Bible colleges.
God thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time, and is purposely not chronogical in many of His prophetic presentations.

Now you’re attacking my understanding of “the Mind of Christ” simply because you don’t like my challenge to your interpretation, eh?

Claiming to have the “Mind of Christ” does not make your interpretation automatically correct, nor does disagreeing with you make someone guilty of following “the wisdom of men.”

The issue remains: Can you demonstrate your interpretation from Scripture? Invoking the “Mind of Christ” is not a substitute for proving your claim from the text.

I can not demonstrate scripture for how you should interpret it.
That is dependent upon which "mind" it is that you are listening to:
1. Your own mind?
2. The mind of Christ within you?
3. The minds of all who are taught from denominational Bible colleges?

That is a false choice. You’re trying to make this about whether I’m following my own mind, the Mind of Christ, or some denominational Bible college. For the record, I never attended a Bible college.

I allow Scripture to interpret Scripture—comparing passages in their context and letting God’s Word define its own symbols and terms.

That is exactly where I believe your interpretation fails. You keep appealing to having the “Mind of Christ,” but that does not exempt your interpretation from being tested by Scripture itself.

And you STILL remain refuted because, instead of answering my biblical arguments with a biblical refutation, you’ve turned your attention to attacking how I supposedly think. That doesn’t answer a single point I raised. Boring.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Paul in Ephesians 6:12 tells us who the beasts are: -

Ephesians 6:10-13: - 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armour of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.​

ESV​

​

In Daniel 7:2 we are introduced to the four wings of heaven.

Daniel 7:2: - 2 Daniel declared, “I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea.

ESV​

Why are you and others trying to make everything difficult?

Jay, you are partly correct. You are getting warmer to my position. I agree that the beasts ultimately concern spiritual forces of evil, so quoting Ephesians 6:12 is not where I disagree with you.

But you STILL have not answered my actual question: Who exactly are the four beasts of Daniel 7?

Are the lion, bear, leopard, and fourth beast four literal historical/geographical empires with earthly boundaries, as they are commonly interpreted? Or do those different beasts describe spiritual forces of evil and differing manifestations/degrees of their deceptive power that attacks God's people on the both side of the Cross?

And then explain why the lion, bear, and leopard are brought together into ONE beast in Revelation 13:2.

That is the specific answer I am waiting for. Please stop being stonewalled and make yourself difficult by giving vague surrounding answers and address the question directly. Selah!

 

[Jay Ross]

But you STILL have not answered my actual question: Who exactly are the four beasts of Daniel 7?

I have been answering your question of the entity type for the beasts in Daniel 7:1-12. The beasts are the heavenly hosts who rebelled with Satan years ago, who are able to influence and bend people to manifest their respective dominate characteristic so as to minimise God's influence in the affairs of people.

Sadly, the reformation fathers, in order to demonise the RCC made beasts to be human in character by combining the Statue Prophecy with Daniel 7 to mesh them together as both being evil and providing a political solution to support their breaking away from an evil, politically constructed, controlling entity, called the RCC.

So, in order to understand the entity type of the Beast(s) we need to reject the constructs at the time of the Reformation and return to what the scriptures actual informs us of who the entities are.

The Daniel 2 Statue prophecy gives us an understanding of the political entities that has and will have dominion over the Land of Babylon.

The political entities are: -

1. Babylon​

2. Medes and Persians​

3. The Grecian Empire(s)​

​

A period of two ages where the Land of Babylon will be desolated, i.e. have no people living within its boundaries, desolated, i.e. all the utility structures destroyed or removed from within the boundaries of the land of Babylon, from around 120 BC up to 1926 AD when the Land of Babylon had a dominion entity established over it.​

​

4. Iraq​

5. The Coalition of the willing who invaded Iraq in 2003 AD to "heal the land of Babylon," led by the President of the USA.​

So, TS, while ever your understanding of what the Scriptures shows is flawed, then your understanding of God's prophetic words will be wide of the mark.

Who the two witnesses are in the overall scheme of the unfolding storyline is not as important as you would have us believe.

What is important is that in just over 1,000 solar years from now, there will be two witnesses who oppose the plans of Satan and after they have been killed in the streets of Jerusalem by "the Beast," they will be resurrected after being left in the streets of Jerusalem, to challenge the controlling dominion of Satan and His fellow heavenly hosts.

People living at this time will have to decide whose side they are on and live with the consequence of their decision as the final judgement of mankind begins shortly afterwards.

Shalom

 

[TribulationSigns]

I have been answering your question of the entity type for the beasts in Daniel 7:1-12. The beasts are the heavenly hosts who rebelled with Satan years ago, who are able to influence and bend people to manifest their respective dominate characteristic so as to minimise God's influence in the affairs of people..

...The Daniel 2 Statue prophecy gives us an understanding of the political entities that has and will have dominion over the Land of Babylon.

The political entities are: -

1. Babylon​

2. Medes and Persians​

3. The Grecian Empire(s)​

​

A period of two ages where the Land of Babylon will be desolated, i.e. have no people living within its boundaries, desolated, i.e. all the utility structures destroyed or removed from within the boundaries of the land of Babylon, from around 120 BC up to 1926 AD when the Land of Babylon had a dominion entity established over it.​

​

4. Iraq​

5. The Coalition of the willing who invaded Iraq in 2003 AD to "heal the land of Babylon," led by the President of the USA.​

Now, Jay, we are finally getting somewhere. You have "at least" clearly stated your position: the four beasts of Daniel 7 are rebellious heavenly hosts who influence mankind. Fine. Now demonstrate that interpretation from the text which you STILL have came up short!

Daniel does NOT merely say, “I saw spiritual forces of evil.” He sees four distinct beasts—lion, bear, leopard, and a dreadful fourth beast—and Daniel 7:17 specifically says:

“These great beasts, which are four, are four kings…”

So my question remains: Why FOUR? Why these particular animals? What distinguishes one beast from another? And why are the lion, bear, and leopard characteristics later combined into ONE beast in Revelation 13:2?

That is what I have been asking you to explain which you STILL FAIL to answer! Duh!

Instead, you suddenly moved into Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Iraq, the United States-led coalition in 2003, and even 1926 AD. What? Are you kidding me?! Where does Daniel himself identify Iraq, 1926, or the 2003 Coalition of the Willing? You are importing historical/geographical events into the prophecy while accusing others of doing essentially the same thing?

And then you jump another 1,000+ years into the future and declare that two literal individuals will be killed in literal Jerusalem. Again, where does Revelation 11 itself establish your timetable to begin with anyway!

I am asking you to do something much simpler: let Scripture interpret its own symbols.

Explain from Scripture WHY Daniel sees four different beasts, what their distinguishing characteristics signify, and why Revelation 13 brings the leopard, bear, and lion together into one beast.

That is the question! I am still waiting for a direct biblical answer rather than another historical/geographical construction.

Selah!

 

[Earburner]

Neither. You seem to be confusing two very different points.

Your opening post argues that prophetic Scripture should be understood spiritually by “comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” Fine. My comment was addressing to someone else whether he are correctly applying the Scriptures you quote to his interpretation.
So no, I wasn’t quoting you or attempting to borrow something “original” from you. The distinction between quoting Scripture and rightly interpreting Scripture is hardly your invention.

I was simply referencing the fact that I too "compare spiritual things with spiritual".

Now you’re attacking my understanding of “the Mind of Christ” simply because you don’t like my challenge to your interpretation, eh?

No! Its Not that at all. We both understand our interpretations between each other, stating that we both are seeking the Lord's Truth by "comparing spiritual things with spiritual".

Claiming to have the “Mind of Christ” does not make your interpretation automatically correct, nor does disagreeing with you make someone guilty of following “the wisdom of men.”

I Absolutely agree! Only the Lord shall discern between us of His Truth. I cannot say anything about who is right or wrong. The only discernment that matters is that it is of the Lord, and not that of our own natural human mind, or of any other natural human mind, that has been ordained among men by a denominational Bible college or seminary.

Edit: When ever I write my posts and/or replies, I am always aware of the audience in the background. So therefore, in essence I have no intention of being derogatory or condescending in how I write.

The issue remains: Can you demonstrate your interpretation from Scripture? Invoking the “Mind of Christ” is not a substitute for proving your claim from the text.

There is no issue remaining!! I have thoroughly demonstrated my interpretation from scripture.
If you cannot discern that the Lord's words are Spirit, and that I have done due diligence in comparing spiritual things with spiritual, then the fault may lie within you.

That is a false choice. You’re trying to make this about whether I’m following my own mind, the Mind of Christ, or some denominational Bible college. For the record, I never attended a Bible college.

Absolutely not!! We all are challenged daily as to whether we are listening to our own mind, the mind of Christ, or the mind(s) of those who are "ordained of men", who say they are in Christ and may not necessarily be.

I allow Scripture to interpret Scripture—comparing passages in their context and letting God’s Word define its own symbols and terms.

I do the same, while always allowing the mind of Christ to interpret His own words to me, instead of "Strong's Concordance", Bible helps and/or "denominational commentary", etc.

That is exactly where I believe your interpretation fails. You keep appealing to having the “Mind of Christ,” but that does not exempt your interpretation from being tested by Scripture itself.

Like I said, I follow the double ruling: Scripture interprets scripture, through the mind of Christ.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And you STILL remain refuted because, instead of answering my biblical arguments with a biblical refutation, you’ve turned your attention to attacking how I supposedly think. That doesn’t answer a single point I raised. Boring.

Sorry to see that you are still standing on "one foot" for your defense of your own interpretations, and the criticism of others!
Seek that which is of the "double ruling".

 

[Jay Ross]

Now, Jay, we are finally getting somewhere. You have "at least" clearly stated your position: the four beasts of Daniel 7 are rebellious heavenly hosts who influence mankind. Fine. Now demonstrate that interpretation from the text which you STILL have came up short!

Daniel does NOT merely say, “I saw spiritual forces of evil.” He sees four distinct beasts—lion, bear, leopard, and a dreadful fourth beast—and Daniel 7:17 specifically says:

“These great beasts, which are four, are four kings…”

So my question remains: Why FOUR? Why these particular animals? What distinguishes one beast from another? And why are the lion, bear, and leopard characteristics later combined into ONE beast in Revelation 13:2?

That is what I have been asking you to explain which you STILL FAIL to answer! Duh!

Daniel 7:2-27: - 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven[1] were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, {i.e. manifestations from out of the sea of humanity.} each different from the other. 4 The first was like a lion . . .

5 "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. . . .

6 "After this I looked, and there was another, i.e. The third beast, like a leopard, . . .

7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. . . .

there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, {the fifth beast} before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.[2]

. . . .

11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

. . . .

Daniel's Visions Interpreted

15 "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 I came near to one of those who stood by and asked him the truth of all this. So, he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.[3] 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.'

The description of the beast that rises up out of the Bottomless pit
that will be released after spending 1,000 years in the Bottomless Pit
and then it will be captured and dispatched into the lake of Fire
along with the Little Horn/the False Prophet

19 "Then I wished to know the truth about the four {faceted} beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

21 "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favour of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

23 "Thus he said:​

'The fourth beast shall be​

A fourth kingdom on earth,​

Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,​

And shall devour the whole earth,​

Trample it and break it in pieces. ​

24 The ten horns are ten kings​

Who shall arise from this kingdom.​

And another shall rise after them;​

He shall be different from the first ones,​

And shall subdue three kings. ​

25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,​

Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,​

And shall intend to change times and law.​

Then the saints shall be given into his hand​

For a time and times and half a time. ​

​

26 'But the court shall be seated,​

And they shall take away his dominion,​

To consume and destroy it at the end of this time period. ​

27 Then the kingdom and dominion,​

And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,​

Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.​

His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,​

And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.' ​

Hopefully you will be able to see dimly and hear faintly.

Shalom

---

[1] The “four winds of heaven” are best understood to be four wicked fallen heavenly host that have gained an influence over the earth, in that, their dominate characteristic are manifested within the sea of humanity and these manifestations are described as beasts. The “four winds of heaven” are mentioned in Daniel 7:2, 8:8 and 11:4, and Zechariah 6:5.
[2] The little horn in these verses is another wicked fallen heavenly host, who is also called the “False Prophet” in Revelation 13:11-15, 16:12-15, 19:20 and 20:10. The little horn also appears in Daniel 8.
[3] A reference to the Beasts coming up out of the Bottomless pit in the Book of Revelation.

Now, Jay, we are finally getting somewhere. You have "at least" clearly stated your position: the four beasts of Daniel 7 are rebellious heavenly hosts who influence mankind. Fine. Now demonstrate that interpretation from the text which you STILL have came up short!

Daniel does NOT merely say, “I saw spiritual forces of evil.” He sees four distinct beasts—lion, bear, leopard, and a dreadful fourth beast—and Daniel 7:17 specifically says:

“These great beasts, which are four, are four kings…”

So my question remains: Why FOUR? Why these particular animals? What distinguishes one beast from another? And why are the lion, bear, and leopard characteristics later combined into ONE beast in Revelation 13:2?

That is what I have been asking you to explain