The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[David in NJ]

Here is a chart I made for reference:

View attachment 68121​

Have you read the Gospel?
Have you read Revelation?

 

[David in NJ]

Jacob saw God's face and lived so only sometimes can one not see God's face.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.





This is not seeing visually but understanding/knowing God.


Clarke:


It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

Jacob, Ezekiel and Isaiah saw GOD the LORD = The WORD that was with GOD and was GOD from the Beginning

The WORD became flesh and dwelt among us

 

[William Barton]

IMO:

The two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) are perhaps Enoch and Elijah, both of whom never died.

Each was taken to heaven (Enoch in Genesis 5:23-24, Elijah in 2Kings 2:11). They will return at a future time.

Enoch was 365 years old when he was taken up (Genesis 5:24).

 

[ewq1938]

Jacob, Ezekiel and Isaiah saw GOD the LORD = The WORD that was with GOD and was GOD from the Beginning

The WORD became flesh and dwelt among us

There is God the Father God the Son. I think Jacob, Ezekiel and Isaiah saw GOD the Father.

 

[Davidpt]

IMO the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah, both of whom never died. They were taken to heaven, and will return at a future time.

Does this mean you take the following as literal---fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies?

 

[Davidpt]

There is God the Father God the Son. I think Jacob, Ezekiel and Isaiah saw GOD the Father.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

The point is, clearly, Christ is God. And I assume you agree. Clearly, when He walked the earth 2000 years ago everyone that saw Him saw God face to face. Therefore, the one meant in Exodus 33:20 can't be meaning the Son but is meaning the Father. And that the one meant in Genesis 32:30 can't be meaning the Father but is meaning the Son. Because if it is meaning the Father, Exodus 33:20 contradicts it, in that case.

 

[David in NJ]

There is God the Father God the Son. I think Jacob, Ezekiel and Isaiah saw GOD the Father.

Good Morning,

It' is always GOOD for us to surmise when reading the scriptures as it leads to investigation.

We were all taught or began our journey assuming it was the FATHER.

Then JESUS Spoke and unveiled the OT for us = Gospel

John 1:18 & John 5:37
And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
38But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.

 

[William Barton]

Does this mean you take the following as literal---fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies?

Literal interpretation does not negate figures of speech and figurative language. Search your internet "metonomy."

Yes, I do take it literally in the verse you cite, but I do not know the nature of this "fire." The same kind of thing is noted in the New Testament:

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29).

 

[ewq1938]

Good Morning,

It' is always GOOD for us to surmise when reading the scriptures as it leads to investigation.

We were all taught or began our journey assuming it was the FATHER.

Then JESUS Spoke and unveiled the OT for us = Gospel

John 1:18 & John 5:37
And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18No one has seen God at any time.
The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

This means no one has understood God not that no one has not visually seen Him. The bible says people have visually seen God.

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

 

[David in NJ]

This means no one has understood God not that no one has not visually seen Him. The bible says people have visually seen God.

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

We know that JESUS never erred in the Truth that HE Spoke.

So we must believe the LORD when HE Says: "no one has seen the FATHER's Form nor heard the FATHER's voice at any time."

As you know, the correct word for 'God' is 'Elohim'
Elohim is Plural = Genesis 1:26 = Elohim Said, let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"
Therefore THREE are available to us to examine and Find which of the THREE did they SEE!!!

JESUS, the Way the Truth the Life, Says: ""no one has seen the FATHER's Form nor heard the FATHER's voice at any time."

By this Truth we rule out the FATHER as the One who was seen and heard by Adam & Eve, Cain & Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham/Isaac/Jacob, Moses and the OT patriarchs.

That leaves us with TWO = the LORD and the HOLY SPIRIT

We know that the HOLY SPIRIT Spoke thru the OT patriarchs = @ Peter 1:21
However, no form of the HOLY SPIRIT was seen by them and the voice they heard was that of the men who spoke by the Holy Spirit.

This leaves us only One of the Elohim that was heard directly and whose Form was directly made visible/appeared to the OT patriarchs.

This REVELATION was given to the Apostle John = by which John opens His Gospel with = John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

SHALOM

 

[William Barton]

IMO:

No one has seen God the Father, because God the Father is invisible (Colossians 1:15). Likewise God the Spirit.

Jesus is God (the Word become flesh, John 1:14), and Jesus is visible. He will rule on earth, sitting on his throne, for 1000 years, and that necessitates being visible.

 

[ewq1938]

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

The point is, clearly, Christ is God. And I assume you agree. Clearly, when He walked the earth 2000 years ago everyone that saw Him saw God face to face. Therefore, the one meant in Exodus 33:20 can't be meaning the Son but is meaning the Father. And that the one meant in Genesis 32:30 can't be meaning the Father but is meaning the Son. Because if it is meaning the Father, Exodus 33:20 contradicts it, in that case.

It could be for that particular moment, God did not want Moses to see his face, but allowed others to see his face and live.

 

[ewq1938]

We know that JESUS never erred in the Truth that HE Spoke.

So we must believe the LORD when HE Says: "no one has seen the FATHER's Form nor heard the FATHER's voice at any time."

From a Greek scholar fluent in that ancient language:

Clarke:


It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

 

[David in NJ]

From a Greek scholar fluent in that ancient language:

Clarke:


It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

Thank you and Yes, i began my studies 40 years ago comparing what i read with the hebrew/greek/latin word usage .

The Scriptures that are Holy Spirit Authored contain the Truth which is locked and unlocked by the Author.

JESUS was very specific as to "seeing" and "hearing".

The efficacy of these words of CHRIST are in fact authenticated in the OT.
If it were not to be found in the OT and that JESUS was equating Himself to YHWH, then jesus would be a mere man and a liar.

The Jews knew that JESUS was equating to Himself as the LORD of the OT = thus why the 'death sentence' imposed on HIM from their lack of understanding and lack of the Holy Spirit.

What is the unique claims by JESUS that are only spoken of YHWH in the OT???

 

[ewq1938]

Thank you and Yes, i began my studies 40 years ago comparing what i read with the hebrew/greek/latin word usage .

And when God said Moses would die if he saw His face, was that Jesus or the Father?

 

[David in NJ]

And when God said Moses would die if he saw His face, was that Jesus or the Father?

Most important is the fact that the WORD that was GOD became flesh.

It is at this point when the OT Prophesy of Genesis and Isaiah 7:14 and Psalm 40:6-8 became REALITY/FULFILLMENT on earth/history.

When we refer back to the OT it is not Jesus the man but the WORD that was GOD from the Beginning.

Jesus made quite a few statements of Himself that are only attributed to the OT LORD.

The most well known is John 8:58

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

A good verse to begin with is Revelation 12:1:



The woman represents the carrier of the 'seed of the woman' that began in the Garden of Eden. In the context of Revelation 12:1, the woman carrying the seed at that particular moment in time was Sarah, who gives birth to Isaac. Similarly, the 'manchild' represents the carrier of Abraham's seed on the father's side.

Years pass and now the seed of the woman, through genealogy of the Israelites, flees into the wilderness of the Exodus. For 1260 years, the seed is nourished until Jesus is born. The Tabernacle in the Wilderness begins the 1260 years:



The 'place prepared' is the body of Jesus, i.e., the Tabernacle:



Again, the Israelites took care of their Messiah, baby Jesus, for 1260 years. At the same time, the Two Witnesses begin to testify. From Moses to John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses testify for 1260 years until the birth of Jesus:



All of the verses match up perfectly.

Here is a basic timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds the Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place (Messiah is cut off).
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

And there you have it. The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

PS: To those of you who believe you are one of the Two Witnesses, I am sorry to tell you... it aint you kid.

Thus sayewth the Word of Exegesis. The Word according to God says much differently.

 

[David in NJ]

Since so many believe that the Two Witnesses are still future, I will share another viewpoint that actually fits Scripture.

A good verse to begin with is Revelation 12:1:



The woman represents the carrier of the 'seed of the woman' that began in the Garden of Eden. In the context of Revelation 12:1, the woman carrying the seed at that particular moment in time was Sarah, who gives birth to Isaac. Similarly, the 'manchild' represents the carrier of Abraham's seed on the father's side.

Years pass and now the seed of the woman, through genealogy of the Israelites, flees into the wilderness of the Exodus. For 1260 years, the seed is nourished until Jesus is born. The Tabernacle in the Wilderness begins the 1260 years:



The 'place prepared' is the body of Jesus, i.e., the Tabernacle:



Again, the Israelites took care of their Messiah, baby Jesus, for 1260 years. At the same time, the Two Witnesses begin to testify. From Moses to John the Baptist, the Two Witnesses testify for 1260 years until the birth of Jesus:



All of the verses match up perfectly.

Here is a basic timeline:

• Woman on moon flees to the wilderness, i.e., the Exodus.
• Moses builds the Tabernacle in the Wilderness on day/year 1.
• The Seed of the Woman on moon is nourished for 1260 days/years until Jesus is born.
• At the same time, the Two Witnesses testify from Moses to John the Baptist for1260 days/years.
• Jesus is born on day/year 1260.
• Jesus begins ministry on day/year 1290, thirty years later.
• On day/year 1290, the Two Witnesses are killed. This would be the beginning of week 70.
• 3-1/2 days/years later, in the middle of the week, the Crucifixion takes place (Messiah is cut off).
• The Two Witnesses are raised. A great earthquake occurs.
• On day/year 1335, 45 years later, Jerusalem is destroyed.

And there you have it. The Two Witnesses already did their thing thousands of years ago.

PS: To those of you who believe you are one of the Two Witnesses, I am sorry to tell you... it aint you kid.

Change your member name to: 'idk'

 

[William Barton]

You just said "before they died"

Yes, before they died.

o. Elijah (2Kings 2:1) :

o Enoch. (Genesis 5:24):

You just said "before they died"

Heaven is a great place. You do not have to be dead to visit, the Apostle Paul made such a visit (2Corinthians 12:2).

 

[William Barton]

And so is

Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

8 verses later and Enoch was one of the "All these people"