The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[Spiritual Israelite]

"By faith Enoch was taken up from this [life], so that he should *not see death* ..." (Hebrews 11:5).

"According to faith these [that died] all died...". (Hebrews 11:13)

Why are you changing the text of Hebrews 11:13 to try to make it as if it doesn't say that all of those of faith previously mentioned, which included Enoch, all died? Do you think it's acceptable to twist God's word like that? It's not.

 

[William Barton]

Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

They had to die from their mortal bodies to enter heaven

Marty Fox says:
<had to die to enter heaven>

Bible says:

o "Enoch walked with God, and he was not, because God took him."
(Genesis 5:24)

o "Elisha walked with God and he was not, because God took him."
(2Kings 2:1)

IMO they are the two witnesses (neither had ever died, rather both were caught up to heaven).

 

[William Barton]

And so is

Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

8 verses later and Enoch was one of the "All these people"

Marty Fox noted:
"All these people."

That refers to those in the group just mentioned that died.
Enoch is in a different group, since he did not die.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Marty Fox noted:
"All these people."

That refers to those in the group just mentioned that died.
Enoch is in a different group, since he did not die.

No, it refers to all of the people with faith that were previously mentioned, which included Enoch, and it says they all died. You are changing the text to fit your beliefs.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

All these people are all of the people previously mentioned, which included Enoch. Stop trying to change what this verse says.

 

[Marty fox]

No, it refers to all of the people with faith that were previously mentioned, which included Enoch, and it says they all died. You are changing the text to fit your beliefs.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

All these people are all of the people previously mentioned, which included Enoch. Stop trying to change what this verse says.

He keeps replying this to me but I'm not sure why as I have already replied to him a few times so I'm just ignoring it. No use saying the same thing over and over.

 

[William Barton]

Why would you assume that when the text is contained within the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible? The two witnesses are said to be "two olive trees" and "two candlesticks" (or lampstands). How does that fit the idea of them representing two individuals? In Revelation 1:20 candlesticks (lampstands) represent churches.

I read "these all died" as "all those that died."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I read "these all died" as "all those that died."

You won't find any translations that word it that way. But, just go ahead and believe what you want to believe since that's obviously what you want to do.

 

[William Barton]

He keeps replying this to me but I'm not sure why as I have already replied to him a few times so I'm just ignoring it. No use saying the same thing over and over.

The same passage

He keeps replying this to me but I'm not sure why as I have already replied to him a few times so I'm just ignoring it. No use saying the same thing over and over.

Hebrews 11:5:
"By faith ENOCH was *taken up,* so that he should not see death..."

2Kings2:9:
"When they had crossed, ELIJAH said to Elisha, " Tell me what I can do for you before I am *taken from you."*

2Kings 2:11:
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of, and ELIJAH *went up to heaven in a whirlwind.*

ENOCH and ELIJAH were both taken up to heaven, never having died. . IMO they are the two witnesses, two olive trees (Zechariah 4:11-13).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The same passage

Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch was *taken up,* so that he should not see death..."


2Kings2:9: "When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, " Tell me what I can do for you before I am *taken from you."*

2Kings 2:11: As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses if fire appeared and separated the two of, and Elijah *went up to heaven in a whirlwind.*

Enoch and Elijah, both taken up to heaven.

But, they were not taken up to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is or else Jesus wouldn't have said this....

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus made no exceptions here. No one, including Enoch and Elijah, had ever gone to heaven up to that point except for Jesus Himself who came from heaven, as in the third heaven/paradise.

 

[Marty fox]

The same passage

Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch was *taken up,* so that he should not see death..."


2Kings2:9: "When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, " Tell me what I can do for you before I am *taken from you."*

2Kings 2:11: As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses if fire appeared and separated the two of, and Elijah *went up to heaven in a whirlwind.*

Enoch and Elijah, both taken up to heaven.

Jesus teaches us that taken is another word for dying

Mathew 24
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Luke 17
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

 

[Marty fox]

But, they were not taken up to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is or else Jesus wouldn't have said this....

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus made no exceptions here. No one, including Enoch and Elijah, had ever gone to heaven up to that point except for Jesus Himself who came from heaven, as in the third heaven/paradise.

As you show here and I did in post #310 I go by the very direct words out of Jesus mouth over someones interpretation of other biblical writers

 

[IndianaRob]

But, they were not taken up to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is or else Jesus wouldn't have said this....

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus made no exceptions here. No one, including Enoch and Elijah, had ever gone to heaven up to that point except for Jesus Himself who came from heaven, as in the third heaven/paradise.

They weren’t taken to the third heaven, they were taken to Abraham’s Bosom/Paradise. The same place all Old Testament believers went when they left this world.

 

[William Barton]

So, how do you interpret Hebrews 11:13 which says that the people of faith, which included Enoch, all died? Hebrews 11:5 does not say that Enoch never died. He was taken up at that time so that he didn't die at that time, but Hebrews 11:13 indicates that he must have died later. Why are you not willing to accept what Hebrews 11:13 indicates?


Jesus did not say that no one but Him ascended to heaven, He said no one but Him ascended to heaven, period. Why do you keep twisting the text of these verses to make them say what you want them to say?

Spiritual Israelite noted:
<no one but Him ascended to heaven>

Consider the following:

Zechariah 4:13:
"...'These are the *two* anointed ones who *stand by* the Lord of all the earth.'"

Revelation 11:3,12:
"And I will grant authority to my *two* witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1260 days, clothed in sack-cloth."'

Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them."

I'm thinking Enoch and Elijah.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They weren’t taken to the third heaven, they were taken to Abraham’s Bosom/Paradise. The same place all Old Testament believers went when they left this world.

They weren't taken there bodily. Their souls and spirits would have been taken to Abraham's bosom when they physically died.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite noted:
<no one but Him ascended to heaven>

Consider the following:

Zechariah 4:13:
"...'These are the *two* anointed ones who stand by the Lord of all the earth.'"

Revelation 11:3-4:
"And I will grant my *two* witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."'

I'm thinking Enoch and Elijah.

So, you think they will be resurrected then? Or are you still going to insist they were taken to the heaven where Jesus resides (the third heaven/paradise) despite Jesus saying no one had been there except Him as of the time He spoke in John 3:13?

 

[IndianaRob]

They weren't taken there bodily. Their souls and spirits would have been taken to Abraham's bosom when they physically died.

I agree. God took their souls and spirits and the body stayed behind. As I’ve said before that’s how all believers leave here and go to be with the Lord and that’s why Jesus said whoever believes in Him shall never SEE death.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus teaches us that taken is another word for dying

One yes, but the other one is a completely different Greek word and it does not mean death.

Mathew 24
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Death.

Luke 17
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

Taken here is not death butr left has this in it's definition, "left on dying" or in otherword left to die.

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

He's talking about where he will take the saints as they will be with him to witness what Rev 19 speaks about.

 

[ewq1938]

They weren’t taken to the third heaven, they were taken to Abraham’s Bosom/Paradise.

Same place, 3 different names.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Same place, 3 different names.

Abraham's bosom could not have been the third heaven/paradise because Jesus said no one had been in heaven except for Him as of the time He said this...

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus is talking about the third heaven/paradise here. The souls/spirits of dead believers were in Abraham's bosom at the time He said this, so Abraham's bosom cannot be the third heaven/paradise. I believe that the souls/spirits of dead believers were taken from Abraham's bosom to the third heaven/paradise when Jesus died. He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that way in paradise. I don't believe anyone but Jesus had been to paradise until that day.

 

[William Barton]

Jesus teaches us that taken is another word for dying

Mathew 24
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Luke 17
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Marty Fox suggested:
"taken is another word for dying"

IMO in this context (return of Jesus) "on that night" refers to the time of the return of Jesus in vengeance (Luke 17:34).

By contrast believers are "taken" at the rapture, to spare them from the horrific judgments to come (John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12, 14:16).