The ultimate corruption of religion

[mjrhealth]

My son has moved to germany, his wife was a protestant he a catholic, so because they belonged to a church they get taxed to support the church. Now they have to pay 10EU to leave officialy, corruption corrupts as does religion. The true and most ugly face of religion.

In all his Love

 

[jiggyfly]

This was a first, I have never heard of having to pay your way out of a church but then it is a form of slavery. Religion really is an ugly tyrant.

 

[Raeneske]

My son has moved to germany, his wife was a protestant he a catholic, so because they belonged to a church they get taxed to support the church. Now they have to pay 10EU to leave officialy, corruption corrupts as does religion. The true and most ugly face of religion.

In all his Love

Could you elaborate on this a little please, i'm having difficulty discerning what you're saying.

Which church is it, that taxes them, and to pay to leave such corruption?

 

[Foreigner]

I have lived in Europe a couple of times.
Charges like that are normally applied by an individual church for administrative purposes.
They are NOT charged as a requirement by a specific denomination.
Obviously, the church is more concerned about money than leaving the door open for an eventual return of their lost sheep.

 

[THE Gypsy]

I hadn't heard about having to pay to leave but I did read several articles on the Catholic Church forcing a "tax" on the people and if they didn't pay then they could no longer receive sacraments...and the Vatican approved the decree.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/us-germany-catholic-churchtax-idUSBRE88K0LX20120921

 

[Selene]

I hadn't heard about having to pay to leave but I did read several articles on the Catholic Church forcing a "tax" on the people and if they didn't pay then they could no longer receive sacraments...and the Vatican approved the decree.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/us-germany-catholic-churchtax-idUSBRE88K0LX20120921

The article is not saying that the Roman Catholic Church in Germany is forcing "leaving" Catholics to pay a tax. It says that Catholics who don't pay the Church tax cannot receive the sacraments nor receive religious burials. The sacraments can be withheld and a Mass does not need to be said for the deceased. However, the canon law of the Catholic Church says that the person must be buried. According to the canon law, Catholics can bury non-Catholics, but the Mass (sacrament of the Eucharist) is withheld.

 

[Foreigner]

Do you feel this is acceptable for the Catholic church to do this?

 

[THE Gypsy]

The article is not saying that the Roman Catholic Church in Germany is forcing "leaving" Catholics to pay a tax. It says that Catholics who don't pay the Church tax cannot receive the sacraments nor receive religious burials. The sacraments can be withheld and a Mass does not need to be said for the deceased. However, the canon law of the Catholic Church says that the person must be buried. According to the canon law, Catholics can bury non-Catholics, but the Mass (sacrament of the Eucharist) is withheld.

I believe I MADE that distinction...

I hadn't heard about having to pay to leave .....

Foreigner has a valid question. I too would like to hear your opinion.

 

[Selene]

I believe I MADE that distinction...


Foreigner has a valid question. I too would like to hear your opinion.

You said that they were forced to pay the Church tax. They're not forced. It's still up to them to decide if they want to pay the Church tax or not. They just don't receive the sacraments if they chose not to pay it.

Do you feel this is acceptable for the Catholic church to do this?

I have no idea what the laws regarding taxes in Germany and had to look up "Church tax" on the Internet. From what I gather, it seems that a Church tax is imposed on members of some religious congregations. The Church tax is mostly in Europe. Article 147 of the Weimar Constitution of 1919 and Article 140 of the German Basic Law are the legal basis of this practice. We don't have Church taxes here in Guam.

When members denounce their faith, they are no longer members of that Church and are then not obligated to pay the Church tax. According to the canon law of the Catholic Church, if a Catholic leaves the Catholic Church, they are no longer a Catholic and cannot receive any of the sacraments. So, the Church is correct in this. On the other hand, Catholics who denounce their faith to avoid paying the Church tax, but continue to be a member of the Church are being dishonest, which is a sin. Also, to denounce your faith even in pretense to avoid payment is a serious sin. A Catholic who commits a deliberate and mortal sin cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Communion. In the case of burial, canon law states that the Church cannot withhold the burying of a person regardless of whether they are Catholic or non-Catholic, but the burial Mass can be withheld.

 

[THE Gypsy]

You said that they were forced to pay the Church tax. They're not forced. It's still up to them to decide if they want to pay the Church tax or not. They just don't receive the sacraments if they chose not to pay it.

Oh...I see...so the sacraments, burial rites etc are not important to the believers. If that is the case then I wonder why they are catholic.

And actually...I didn't say that. I said I had read several articles which stated they were forced.

 

[Selene]

Oh...I see...so the sacraments, burial rites etc are not important to the believers. If that is the case then I wonder why they are catholic.

And actually...I didn't say that. I said I had read several articles which stated they were forced.

If they denounce their Catholic faith, they are no longer Catholic. And if the sacraments are that important to them, they will pay the tax. To a Catholic, money should never be more important than the sacraments because a Catholic knowledgeable in the Catechism understands that Christ is present in the sacraments. To denounce their faith just to avoid paying a church tax shows that money is more important than their faith.

 

[THE Gypsy]

If they denounce their Catholic faith, they are no longer Catholic. And if the sacraments are that important to them, they will pay the tax.

IOW...they are forced to pay the tax. No pay, no sacraments. You can twist it all you want, however it still boils down to the great shakedown. Selling sacraments...I wonder what Jesus will have to say to them when they reach the gates.

What a racket.

 

[aspen]

The Eucharist is intimately connected with salvation in the Catholic Church and should never be contingent on payment. Simony is a sin.

 

[Selene]

IOW...they are forced to pay the tax. No pay, no sacraments. You can twist it all you want, however it still boils down to the great shakedown. Selling sacraments...I wonder what Jesus will have to say to them when they reach the gates.

What a racket.

What racket are you referring to? In the first place, they denounced their Catholic faith in order to avoid paying the tax. By denouncing their faith, they are no longer Catholic. Non-Catholics cannot receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The purpose of the Church tax is to pay for church-related expenses. It is not to purchase a sacrament. If a member is to use the Church, it is only fair that they support the Church so that the Church pay for the candles, missal books, and other things that the congregation use. Members who denounce their Catholic faith are no longer members and are not supposed to take advantage of the Church.

Members who denounce their faith in order to avoid paying the tax should not pretend to be Catholic members and continue to receive the sacraments when they have already denounced their Catholic faith.

 

[THE Gypsy]

What racket are you referring to? In the first place, they denounced their Catholic faith in order to avoid paying the tax. By denouncing their faith, they are no longer Catholic. Non-Catholics cannot receive the Sacrament of the Eucharist. The purpose of the Church tax is to pay for church-related expenses. It is not to purchase a sacrament. If a member is to use the Church, it is only fair that they support the Church so that the Church pay for the candles, missal books, and other things that the congregation use. Members who denounce their Catholic faith are no longer members and are not supposed to take advantage of the Church.

Members who denounce their faith in order to avoid paying the tax should not pretend to be Catholic members and continue to receive the sacraments when they have already denounced their Catholic faith.

You go ahead and twist it all you want. There is no wiggling out of this.

If I go to the store and need some milk, I buy it. They sell it. If I do not pay, I do not get it.

Sacraments for sale! You just can't make this stuff up.

 

[Selene]

You go ahead and twist it all you want. There is no wiggling out of this.

If I go to the store and need some milk, I buy it. They sell it. If I do not pay, I do not get it.

Sacraments for sale! You just can't make this stuff up.

Really Gypsy, let's act like mature adults and read carefully the articles YOU post. I'm going by what the article says. Didn't you read the article YOU posted? This is the weblink you posted in your own post.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/us-germany-catholic-churchtax-idUSBRE88K0LX20120921

And according to the weblink that YOU posted, this is what it stated:

"This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," a statement from the bishops conference said. "It is not possible to separate the spiritual community of the Church from the institutional Church."..........

The bishops said the consequences of leaving the church had not been clearly spelled out in the past. Some Catholics have tried to remain active in their parish or have a religious burial despite leaving the church to avoid paying the tax.

Therefore, since these people denounced their Catholic faith even if it's to avoid paying the tax, the sacraments should not be given to them. They should be treated the same way as those who actually left the Church. A true Christian would never denounced their Christian faith even to avoid paying taxes.

Afterall, even Christ paid the temple taxes, and here you are complaining about the Church tax??

Matthew 17:24-27 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax. "Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?" "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

 

[THE Gypsy]

And what about those that DON'T denounce their faith?


Oh...wait...never mind...Sacraments for sale!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rex]

Afterall, even Christ paid the temple taxes, and here you are complaining about the Church tax??

Matthew 17:24-27 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax. "Yes, he does," he replied. When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes--from their own sons or from others?" "From others," Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours."

By using this verese I can only presume you identify your church with the Scribes and Pheressess. The Kings of the earth.

"Then the sons are exempt,"
Instruction to the Sons
Matthew 10:8-9

 

[Selene]

By using this verese I can only presume you identify your church with the Scribes and Pheressess. The Kings of the earth.

"Then the sons are exempt,"
Instruction to the Sons
Matthew 10:8-9

The temple itself does not represent the Scribes and Pharisees. It represent Judaism and Christ was a Jew. By using this verse, I was identifying what a true Christian should do. Christ did not give up His faith and went ahead and paid the temple tax.

And what about those that DON'T denounce their faith?


Oh...wait...never mind...Sacraments for sale!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The article YOU posted was for those who denounced their faith. To compare a Church to a store is ridiculous. The sacraments are not for sale nor are they for everyone. God bless. :)

 

[THE Gypsy]

The article YOU posted was for those who denounced their faith. To compare a Church to a store is ridiculous. The sacraments are not for sale nor are they for everyone. God bless. :)

Aparrently they are since if you do not pay you cannot have them.


Besides your excuse doesn't work...

Germany's Roman Catholic bishops have decreed that people who opt out of a "church tax" should not be given sacraments and religious burials, getting tougher on worshippers who choose not to pay.

You don't have to denounce your faith. You just have to "opt out of the church tax".

In all fairness...it's not just Catholics. It also applies to Protestants and Jews.

What a sick society. Considering Jesus overturned the tables in the temple, he must be fuming over this one.