The unpopular (but deadly) truth of conditional salvation
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All I am teaching about practicing righteousness and being obedient to ChristRach said:
agrees with James' "works proves saving faith". Kapishola?
How do you define obedience? Perhaps that would help clarify your position in people's minds.evangelist-7 said:
That unfortunately is not all that you are teaching. And I can't help but notice you used the word "teaching", as if somehow you feel you are here as a teacher. Be that as it may, you are 'teaching' that we are to MAINTAIN our life and salvation by our works and obedience.. This is a far cry from what you call 'proving' one has saving faith.evangelist-7 said:
Maintaining what one has received is not the same as proving what one has received. kapishola?
James said nothing about maintaining anything. Salvation was not on the table in his letter. Faith does not save. We are saved by grace, through faith. Faith is merely the means by which we freely receive things from God (ie.Rom.8:32)
James merely observed the quality of their love towards one another and reminded them that works are a product of faith. In terms of cause and effect, works are the effect. It is like fire and smoke. If smoke is the goal, we do not try to make smoke. We merely light a fire.
The point is that fruit is an inevitable by product of faith. We do not need to produce works of fruit. They happen naturally. Faith gives us the new birth. Our new nature will manifest itself if we do not deliberately dig a hole and bury it, which is an indicator of opposition to it. How many real believers do you think are opposed to bearing fruit?
This is a start at least ...FHII said:
• Salvation is through God’s grace and is NOT through any of man’s good works. Because of his sin
nature, man has always been spiritually blind and deaf and totally incapable of accepting God’s truth.
God gives some people a spiritual revelation, which is His free gift of grace-faith-salvation. However,
man has the free-will choice to accept or reject this revelation (this is called “prevenient grace”).
• Those who initially believe-trust in Jesus and His gospel are given the Holy Spirit to be inside them.
These are BACs, and it is never promised that this grace-faith-salvation will remain forever until the
end of their lives. Only the faithful “elect” of God are given some NT verses of guaranteed salvation.
The famous “easy-believism” verses are simply to help gospel acceptance. But, yes, one who truly
believes (unto obedience and full sanctification) is part of God’s “elect” and will gain eternal life.
FHII
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I don't see how that answers the question.... Either you didn't answer it or I misunderstood.evangelist-7 said:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I'll be a little more direct: Does grace cover all our sins of the flesh?
Nevermind. I can define obedience in two words: faith and love. Anything beyond that is commentary.evangelist-7 said:
This demonstrates how little you really understand about the new birth and the elect. There is no way you can scripturally prove your opinion that only a special selection of believers have assurance that is based on their personal performance. That is merely another way of saying.."be good (really, really really good) and you will live forever", which of course is the lie that you are caught up in.evangelist-7 said:
Furthermore, the new birth is a new spirit within a person. That is what makes him a BAC. That which is born OF the spirit IS spirit. Those who are born of Adam are NOT Adam, but rather, his offspring. Similarly, it is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that makes one a BAC. It is one who has a new spirit which is "offspring" of Christ. This is the new wineskin that Jesus referred to. The new wine is the Holy Spirit. The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is a separate phenomenon than the BAC. One is made possible by the other. We are indwelt because we are BAC,s. The new birth accommodates the indwelling of the Spirit. Kapish?
As far as the Calvinist type of presentation, that is a topic for another thread. It is also false. Fallen man is certainly capable of reasoning and responding to information and evidence. Man has been fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image. It is an insult to His accomplishment to suggest that one act from Adam could totally undo what God created. It left him empty. It did not change his created image.
Wormwood
Chaps
Not saying I agree with all the conclusions in the OP, but the Greek in these passages do, in fact, mean "if." In the Greek, there are sentence constructions that indicate whether or not something is conditional. The Greek word "ean" can mean since, or therefore, but when it is used in a construction that has "de" at the beginning of the sentence, it is making a conditional statement. Therefore, the author really is saying what the "if" implies. (de) Condition #1 is true "if" (ean) condition #2 is met.
You could not be more in error, if you believe that is true.FHII said:
The free gift of grace given to a person initially makes him a BAC.
And Christ's righteousness is imputed to him, etc.
But, nowhere is this grace promised to last until death.
The MANY DOZENS of warnings ... warn to the contrary!
Some even specifically mention losing eternal life, threaten perdition, etc.
And the BAC who actually "practices righteousness" (1 John 3:7, etc.) ...
is thereby PROVING he is righteous ... and on the way to a future salvation.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
The righteousness of Christ is a 110% sinless righteousness. Therefore;evangelist-7 said:
people with it imputed to them are reckoned 110% sinless and
consequently in no more danger of the wrath of God than is Christ.
According to John 3:36, John 6:47, John 5:24, and 1John 5:13 all believersevangelist-7 said:
possess eternal life; which is a supernatural kind of life that's impervious to
death, decay, and the aging process. Therefore; all believers are impervious
to the wages of sin.
†. Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in
Jesus Christ our Lord.
In addition: according to Rom 6:1-23, believers died on the cross with
Christ, and rose from the dead with Christ. Seeing as how Christ is now
exempt from death for sin, then they who rose from the dead with him are also
exempt from death for sin; which is how Jesus could get away with saying at
John 5:24 that believers have passed from death into life and will never be
condemned for their sins.
Buen Camino
/
Wormwood
Chaps
WH,
In my opinion, we are "in Christ" through faith. It is not our righteousness that saves us, but Christ's. We partake in that righteousness by faith. Salvation is not merely a state, but a person. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life." We are not and cannot be condemned for our sins as we abide in Christ. However, we stand by faith and if we reject Christ then we also turn away the eternal life and grace he provides (Romans 11:22). Just my opinion on a very divisive subject
.
In my opinion, we are "in Christ" through faith. It is not our righteousness that saves us, but Christ's. We partake in that righteousness by faith. Salvation is not merely a state, but a person. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life." We are not and cannot be condemned for our sins as we abide in Christ. However, we stand by faith and if we reject Christ then we also turn away the eternal life and grace he provides (Romans 11:22). Just my opinion on a very divisive subject
.Your unsurpassable tact is most duly noted.Wormwood said:WH,
In my opinion, we are "in Christ" through faith. It is not our righteousness that saves us, but Christ's. We partake in that righteousness by faith. Salvation is not merely a state, but a person. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life." We are not and cannot be condemned for our sins as we abide in Christ. However, we stand by faith and if we reject Christ then we also turn away the eternal life and grace he provides (Romans 11:22). Just my opinion on a very divisive subject
Yes, man's free will is King ... and he can do anything his little heart desires!
Like, stay "in Christ", or not.
Problem is: many BACs are not taught what being "in Christ" really means.
Hint: it does not mean being born-again.
Yes, the Holy Spirit is "in them", but are they "in Christ"?
This is absurd. Obedience is walking in grace through faith. As it is written, 'As you received Christ Jesus the lord, walk in him'. To state what you did above is the spirit of the works of law, not the works of faith.evangelist-7 said:
If the holy spirit is in them, they are in Christ. Whether they are walking in the spirit is an entirely different matter.evangelist-7 said:
Yes, I must agree ... cows are not very advanced animals.ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Next cow, please ...
When we are born in this world, we are physical offspring of Adam, having his seed in us. Therefore we are "in" the family of Adam. 'Family', meaning 'species'. When we are born from above, we have His seed in us (1Pet.1:23, 1John 3:9). Thus we are new creations. If anyone is "in Christ", he is a new creation (2Cor.5:17). This is what "in Christ" means. Read it for yourself in 2Cor. 5:17.It means we have the beginnings of a brand new species within us which qualifies us to be called a new creation, and this will be completed upon the resurrection when we are gifted with a new body. And this begins through the new birth. So you are dead wrong...again. One must be born again to be placed "in Christ". So while you like to refer to cows, the reality is that some of us have been casting pearls before swine.evangelist-7 said:
The funny thing about your disrespectful, arrogant, non-humorous attempt at humor is that you will have to answer for it.evangelist-7 said:
Wormwood,
Would you be willing to share your knowledge of Greek re: this passage?
E.G. Does this only refer to a BAC going back into continual habitual unrepentant sinning?
2 Pet 2:20-22 • For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and
overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been
better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them
according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and,
“a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Would you be willing to share your knowledge of Greek re: this passage?
E.G. Does this only refer to a BAC going back into continual habitual unrepentant sinning?
2 Pet 2:20-22 • For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the
knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and
overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been
better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them
according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and,
“a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
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