The Verdict... Guilty.

[shnarkle]

How then do you answer those who use as an excuse for their unbelief, the preponderance of evil? Why, in your view/opinion, does God allow continuing suffering even upon the innocent?

Only the guilty suffer. Christ takes on the penalty himself, and shows that this is the path to salvation, which is through suffering. Only the self can suffer, therefore the self must be denied/sacrificed.

 

[brakelite]

Only the guilty suffer. Christ takes on the penalty himself, and shows that this is the path to salvation, which is through suffering. Only the self can suffer, therefore the self must be denied/sacrificed.

Taking upon my self the role of devils advocate...
How does constant suffering testify to a loving God? What are the thousands of children murdered daily in abortion hospitals guilty of that they deserve to suffer? What of the thousands that were interred in concentration camps and suffered horribly through rape, torture, and death? Why did God allow his own church members in the dark ages to be murdered and butchered...pregnant women ripped open and their unborn children held aloft on spears while their persecutors laughed and played games? Who is this God who stands by and watches without intervening? Where is this just and loving God you speak of?

 

[brakelite]

Only the guilty suffer. Christ takes on the penalty himself, and shows that this is the path to salvation, which is through suffering. Only the self can suffer, therefore the self must be denied/sacrificed.

Sorry, but your theological religious theories dont answer my questions.

 

[shnarkle]

Taking upon my self the role of devils advocate...
How does constant suffering testify to a loving God?

Where did I claim suffering needs to be constant?

What are the thousands of children murdered daily in abortion hospitals guilty of that they deserve to suffer?

They have no idea what's going on. They feel pain. They do not suffer. Bad analogy.

What of the thousands that were interred in concentration camps and suffered horribly through rape, torture, and death?

This is a better example because it shows how they learned to let go. Through surrender, they were able to choose not to suffer. One needn't go through a concentration camp in order to do this, but it can facilitate it for those who are incapable of surrendering any other way.

Why did God allow his own church members in the dark ages to be murdered and butchered...pregnant women ripped open and their unborn children held aloft on spears while their persecutors laughed and played games? Who is this God who stands by and watches without intervening? Where is this just and loving God you speak of?

This isn't something God allows. This is God's intended purpose which is to show that it is only the ego or Satan himself who can suffer. The self must be denied. When this happens, it usually requires intense suffering as part of the process. Those who let go of their persona, don't suffer anywhere nearly as much, but when they do, it is embraced. We see this in John's gospel where instead of Christ being a victim, he is in control of his fate. He is glorified in his crucifixion. The very act of being lifted up on the cross is glorious in drawing all of humanity to him. Self sacrifice is an act of ecstatic suffering. Again, only the ego or self can suffer, and as it does, the image of God is liberated, sanctified, and glorified. It is through this process that one steps into eternity, in "the twinkling of an eye".

Again, it is only suffering with regards to oneself, which is explicitly condemned to suffer. It has to suffer because deep down it knows it isn't real to begin with. The ego goes through life never being able to achieve anything. It is never satisfied. It can never do enough to warrant justification. It is a fraud, and a liar from the beginning.

 

[shnarkle]

Sorry, but your theological religious theories dont answer my questions.

They not only answer your questions, they are theologically and biblically consistent.

 

[brakelite]

Where did I claim suffering needs to be constant?



They have no idea what's going on. They feel pain. They do not suffer. Bad analogy.



This is a better example because it shows how they learned to let go. Through surrender, they were able to choose not to suffer. One needn't go through a concentration camp in order to do this, but it can facilitate it for those who are incapable of surrendering any other way.



This isn't something God allows. This is God's intended purpose which is to show that it is only the ego or Satan himself who can suffer. The self must be denied. When this happens, it usually requires intense suffering as part of the process. Those who let go of their persona, don't suffer anywhere nearly as much, but when they do, it is embraced. We see this in John's gospel where instead of Christ being a victim, he is in control of his fate. He is glorified in his crucifixion. The very act of being lifted up on the cross is glorious in drawing all of humanity to him. Self sacrifice is an act of ecstatic suffering. Again, only the ego or self can suffer, and as it does, the image of God is liberated, sanctified, and glorified. It is through this process that one steps into eternity, in "the twinkling of an eye".

Again, it is only suffering with regards to oneself, which is explicitly condemned to suffer. It has to suffer because deep down it knows it isn't real to begin with. The ego goes through life never being able to achieve anything. It is never satisfied. It can never do enough to warrant justification. It is a fraud, and a liar from the beginning.

How is your average uncoverted man or woman going top understand any of that to such an extent that it explains God? How is an atheist , or the deist, to appreciate the above so in his eyes the history of mankind with all its woe and war and death, God's seeming hands off attitude is vindicated?

 

[shnarkle]

How is your average uncoverted man or woman going top understand any of that to such an extent that it explains God? How is an atheist , or the deist, to appreciate the above so in his eyes the history of mankind with all its woe and war and death, God's seeming hands off attitude is vindicated?

They're not supposed to understand any of it. They're unconverted. They can't understand any of it. To the unconverted, the flesh is worth something. To the converted, it is worthless. To the converted, human beings bear God's image, but they see that it is God, not his image that provides the image with value. When the self image is what is valued, then the only result possible is war, genocides, murder, etc. When all that is seen are separate individuals, then the world is divided up between "us" and "them", theist and atheist, Catholics, and Protestants, Capitalists and Marxists, etc. When the spirit reveals the image of God in humanity, there are no separate individuals. That oxymoron no longer makes sense. It is seen as an oxymoron. We then see, just as Christ sees, we are born to die to this world which is quickly passing away. This fallen world isn't worth fighting for. The flesh counts for nothing.

 

[brakelite]

They're not supposed to understand any of it. They're unconverted. They can't understand any of it. To the unconverted, the flesh is worth something. To the converted, it is worthless. To the converted, human beings bear God's image, but they see that it is God, not his image that provides the image with value. When the self image is what is valued, then the only result possible is war, genocides, murder, etc. When all that is seen are separate individuals, then the world is divided up between "us" and "them", theist and atheist, Catholics, and Protestants, Capitalists and Marxists, etc. When the spirit reveals the image of God in humanity, there are no separate individuals. That oxymoron no longer makes sense. It is seen as an oxymoron. We then see, just as Christ sees, we are born to die to this world which is quickly passing away. This fallen world isn't worth fighting for. The flesh counts for nothing.

Then the problem of evil and suffering in the world is therefore not something we should attempt to answer when asked, because "they won't understand"?
Sorry, but I can't agree. The issue is important not just for others to realise they're is an answer that isn't t theologically driven spiritually and linguistically like a foreign language, but it should be something we should understand in simple enough terms to be able to explain it.

 

[shnarkle]

Then the problem of evil and suffering in the world is therefore not something we should attempt to answer when asked, because "they won't understand"?

Non Sequitur. I didn't say there was no answer. I answered your question. I'm simply pointing out that the unconverted can't understand it. The gospel is the answer regardless of whether they understand or not.

The issue is important not just for others to realise they're is an answer that isn't t theologically driven spiritually and linguistically like a foreign language, but it should be something we should understand in simple enough terms to be able to explain it.

And I did explain. In a nutshell, self denial/self sacrifice is key to entering the kingdom, and one cannot begin to deny oneself until they have discovered the kingdom. However, this isn't to say that one shouldn't bother to deny themselves because this in itself helps to reveal the problem. Most people can understand that selffishness is not beneficial, but in our selfie worldview, this isn't so obvious anymore.