The Verdict... Guilty.

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brakelite

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  • STUBBORN FAITH
BY NATHAN BROWN |


On a number of occasions during his writing life, Nobel Prize winner and author Elie Wiesel tried to re-tell the story of a profound experience he’d had as a young boy in the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz. He wrote a play, a novel and even a cantata to try to re-create his memory of this event, each of which remained unpublished. Finally, he wrote another play, set in another time and location, to try to capture the spirit of the event, which was published in 1979 as The Trial of God. But his re-imagining of the story remains less compelling than even a brief re-telling of the experience itself.

Amid the terrors of the camp, a scholar of Judaism befriended 15-year-old Wiesel and invited him to study together whenever they had opportunity, as “their act of religious defiance”. One evening, the scholar took Wiesel back to his barracks, where they met with two other highly accomplished Jewish legal scholars. Together, these three scholars had decided to put God on trial for the suffering and horror they were witnessing around them, for “allowing His children to be massacred”.

With Wiesel as the only audience, the three scholars argued the case against God over a number of evenings. With all the available evidence compiled, all the arguments made, the scholars arrived at a unanimous verdict: “The Lord God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, was found guilty of crimes against creation and humankind.”

Their solemn conclusion reached, the participants in the makeshift courtroom fell silent. The silence was only interrupted when one of them noted that it was time for evening prayers—and then together they recited the traditional evening service.


Their faith demanded a verdict against God, which gave way to silence . . . and then to worship. This story is equally awe-inspiring, troubling and challenging. And it encapsulates the central tension of faith.

At least to some degree, faith offers an explanation of “life, the universe and everything” as author Douglas Adams put it. It provides a rationale for how things are, an overview of what matters most, perhaps glimpses of the Power at work behind our physical world and everyday lives, and an expectation of how things ought to be. Faith then sketches out some principles for how to live well within these realities, as well as prompting us to look for, to hope for and even to work for something more.

But then life happens—in all its tragedy, beauty and ordinariness—and the explanations, rationales and expectations of faith seem to fall short at exactly the moment when we most need faith. Our faith is disappointed, our God is guilty or absent at best, the universe seems not as good as we had hoped and our best “living well” seems to count for little. And when our best believing feels like it has turned to dust, we most need faith.

In that “eternity of silence”—as Wiesel would later describe it—between the damning verdict on the failures and disappointments of faith and the time for evening prayers, we choose faith or not. Some would seek to diminish this silence with arguments about our incomplete knowledge and inadequate understanding—but these are the problems, not the answers. That we work with human limitations of perspective and insight is reason for both our need for faith and why our faith is so fraught.

When it seems God is guilty of tragic and criminal neglect, we need evening prayers more than ever. When our best efforts at doing good in the world seem to achieve nothing or worse, we need to choose the next good thing. Somehow, amid the silences that follow tragedy and disappointment, we need to go on. And faith offers us the best possibility of this.

This is why worship is such an important element of faith. To worship is to look outside ourselves and our present circumstances. Worship is the choice to break the silence of disappointment and tragedy with prayer—because it is time to pray, rather than waiting for our feelings to come around. Rather than re-starting the argument, restating the verdict or lapsing into permanent silence, we speak into this silence and break the power of the silence.

This “going through the motions” might sound counterintuitive when we place so much store in the value of authenticity, but acting on what we believe, beyond what we can be sure of and before we feel like it, is precisely what we mean when we talk about faith. In this sense, worship is choosing to act in faith: “We think that if we don’t feel something there can be no authenticity in doing it,” wrote The MessageBible translator, Eugene Peterson. “But the wisdom of God says something different: that we can act our way into a new way of feeling much quicker than we can feel ourselves into a new way of acting. Worship is an act that develops feelings for God, not a feeling for God that is expressed in an act of worship.”

The story of those three Jewish scholars and the young Wiesel that night in the barracks of the Auschwitz death camp is haunting. In those horrific circumstances, finding God guilty of crimes against creation and humanity seems so devastatingly just. In those horrific circumstances, an “eternity of silence” seems the only appropriate thing to offer. In those horrific circumstances—at the time for evening prayers—reciting the evening service seems the only human response, a courageous and humble act of religious defiance and stubborn faith.

So, after having read the above, how would YOU defend God when looking into a pit of burning children?
 
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4Jesus

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This thread could get ugly...

To the three witnesses, on the stand, the defense asks:
1)As you believe in God, do you admit that His rebellious angel, luci/satan, opposes Him in all that he does?
2)Do you admit that luci/satan preyed on Adam and Eve, with the result being that the earthly kingdom defaulted to luci/satan?
3)Do you admit disobeying God and rejecting God's Son, Jesus Christ, as a final sacrifice for your sins?
4)Do you admit to continuuing in disobeying God during the time of and preceding this war?
5)Do you admit God could have turned you over to luci/satan's control for your continual rejecting and disobeying of Him?
6)Is luci/satan ultimately responsible for the actions of humans under his control?
7)Is luci/satan ultimately responsible for the physical actions (killing and torturing) of humans under his control herein the timeframe on earth?
8)Will you now obey the one true God?
 
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amadeus

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The focus of people on the "now" and the carnal results which sometimes are terrible has always been man's problem. I can understand the carnal feelings of those three, but carnal they still were. Even in the OT under the law that they had the main problem people had then as now was looking to themselves and their natural families more than they looked to and trusted in God:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prob 3:5-6


Sometimes then and now the pathway set before by God will have a terrible and painful end as man views it, but man's view should not have their view and it should not be ours.

Consider the feelings of the flesh of Jesus when in the Garden of Gethsemene knowing the pain and suffering that lay ahead of him, he still refused to fight against it when he could have.

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

"Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?" Matt 26:53-54


"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." John 10:18
 
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4Jesus

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The defense now calls the prosecutor*, luci/satan, to the stand...

*This ain't no human court - the defense has the capability to put the prosecutor on the stand.
 
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brakelite

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So in this great controversy between Christ and Satan, we are called as witnesses. Which raises some questions which in consideration of the above OP, I would like to find what answers may be forthcoming from the members.
First question, what is it that we are to be witnesses to?
Second question, how do we give that witness?
Third question, and the most crucial, what is at stake? Is it all about us and our eternal reward etc, or is there something far more important that needs to be settled in this great drama?
 

quietthinker

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We are a witness to the vindication of God but we can only be a witness to that if we if we know what is at stake....and what is it? .....me thinks none other than Gods character....what he claims, what he pronounces and how he acts.
We give that witness by honouring his Law just as Jesus did.
 

Naomi25

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I things happen that are simply beyond our comprehenion. Why God allows things to happen is something we may never be privy to. I think the question we must ask is this: do we believe it is his right to allow such things? We mouth platitudes about his sovereignty, but do we really believe it. Do we really afford to him, the maker of heavens and earth, the absolute right to act in accordance to his will, in our lives and in the world in general, in order to bring about his plans of salvation and ultimate glory to himself? Do we rest in his sovereignty, and all that means for our lives, or do we fight against it unless things go well?
I submit that we need to be like little children who, in times of hurt and confusion...even in times of punishment from that very parent, turns to that parent for comfort and support. Because, as Peter said...'where else can we go?' Where else would we even want to go?
 
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brakelite

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We are a witness to the vindication of God but we can only be a witness to that if we if we know what is at stake....and what is it? .....me thinks none other than Gods character....what he claims, what he pronounces and how he acts.
We give that witness by honouring his Law just as Jesus did.
Why does God need to be vindicated? I would have thought that His character was beyond question. At least until you become a resident in Auschwitz, then you would start questioning everything I guess.
@Naomi25 would we possibly be doing God a disservice if we write off everything that is evil to God's sovereignty? As if He is the one ultimately responsible and we dare not question that because we believe He rules everything according to His will?
If evil and wicked things that take place all around us (which they inevitably at some time do) but we cannot comprehend or understand why, then what good are we as witnesses... Even eye witnesses? Because of our calling and the vital place we stand in as God's witnesses, do you think we ought to be searching for answers and seek to understand what is really going on?
 

quietthinker

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Why does God need to be vindicated? I would have thought that His character was beyond question. At least until you become a resident in Auschwitz, then you would start questioning everything I guess.
I think its a good question. If it were not for Lucifer's challenge and claim that God's system (his Law) his way of doing things is unjust then I suppose God would not need to be vindicated. It is precisely to answer Lucifers charge that God humbled himself and became a man living on the run even from birth. 'a man of sorrows acquainted with grief' Isaiah tells us, so that the watching Universe (angels and other inhabitants) could see God in action from a position of disadvantage.
 

Naomi25

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@Naomi25 would we possibly be doing God a disservice if we write off everything that is evil to God's sovereignty? As if He is the one ultimately responsible and we dare not question that because we believe He rules everything according to His will?
If evil and wicked things that take place all around us (which they inevitably at some time do) but we cannot comprehend or understand why, then what good are we as witnesses... Even eye witnesses? Because of our calling and the vital place we stand in as God's witnesses, do you think we ought to be searching for answers and seek to understand what is really going on?

I don't think its so much of a 'writing evil off as it comes under sovereignty". I think its good and right to call evil, evil. I think God himself calls evil, evil. I think what we must do, however, is recognize that God, being above all, and in control of all, has the ability to use evil to still achieve his purposes. Evil does not surprise him or stall his plan for any of his people.
And...I don't even think its a bad thing to cry out 'why'?! What I think we must be more careful of is 'how dare you's?' That implies we don't think God has ultimate authority or the long view of his plan in sight. Or, our best at heart. Our best is not always the easy road, sometimes it is the hard road, but it is still the best, as it takes us to him.
And...I cannot say for certain that it IS our place to always understand why. Consider our brothers and sisters in Christ in areas such as the Middle East or in North Korea. Do you think they are able to fully understand or explain why Christians have been consistently persecuted for so very long, in such horrible ways? I suppose we could say evil men and evil deeds stand against them. Perhaps even Satan behind the evil men. But, we know of these sorts of opposition. We know we have them in this world. And yet, we see these persecuted people's faith and declaration of it, in more vibrant ways than our own at times. They see more clearly than we do that when you have nothing but God, you don't blame God, you cling to his beauty and preciousness. And in doing this, glory is given to God. This is right and just, and the strange and wonderful thing about it, is that when we glorify him we are most content and peaceful in our own lives, no matter the suffering we walk through. You see this testimony time and time again from people who are persecuted and even martyred. Rarely do we see someone strung up for Christ moaning and belly-aching that they wish they could take it all back. No! Such peace and joy propels them forward. Why is this? They have learnt in their ultimate sufferings what we, in our comfort and theological musings, often do not. God IS Sovereign in any experience, even the evil ones, and Jesus Christ IS worth any price at all.
This is what I see...but...I could be wrong!
 

Waiting on him

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So in this great controversy between Christ and Satan, we are called as witnesses. Which raises some questions which in consideration of the above OP, I would like to find what answers may be forthcoming from the members.
First question, what is it that we are to be witnesses to?
Second question, how do we give that witness?
Third question, and the most crucial, what is at stake? Is it all about us and our eternal reward etc, or is there something far more important that needs to be settled in this great drama?
It’s the glory of God that’s presented, not ours.
There’s nothing at stake, it’s a closed case.
 
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brakelite

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It’s the glory of God that’s presented, not ours.
There’s nothing at stake, it’s a closed case.
But 90% of the world side with Lucifer. They reject God's government... They refuse to obey His laws... Even professing Christians declare that God's laws cannot be obeyed and are therefore insinuate they are too demanding, unfair, unjust. By rebelling, Lucifer was declaring that he, as a prince, could rule better. And by their actions, even Christians agree. Doesn't seem to me to be such a closed case when even God's own people are going along with the opposition that says God's ways are impossible to follow.
 
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brakelite

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I don't think its so much of a 'writing evil off as it comes under sovereignty". I think its good and right to call evil, evil. I think God himself calls evil, evil. I think what we must do, however, is recognize that God, being above all, and in control of all, has the ability to use evil to still achieve his purposes. Evil does not surprise him or stall his plan for any of his people.
And...I don't even think its a bad thing to cry out 'why'?! What I think we must be more careful of is 'how dare you's?' That implies we don't think God has ultimate authority or the long view of his plan in sight. Or, our best at heart. Our best is not always the easy road, sometimes it is the hard road, but it is still the best, as it takes us to him.
And...I cannot say for certain that it IS our place to always understand why. Consider our brothers and sisters in Christ in areas such as the Middle East or in North Korea. Do you think they are able to fully understand or explain why Christians have been consistently persecuted for so very long, in such horrible ways? I suppose we could say evil men and evil deeds stand against them. Perhaps even Satan behind the evil men. But, we know of these sorts of opposition. We know we have them in this world. And yet, we see these persecuted people's faith and declaration of it, in more vibrant ways than our own at times. They see more clearly than we do that when you have nothing but God, you don't blame God, you cling to his beauty and preciousness. And in doing this, glory is given to God. This is right and just, and the strange and wonderful thing about it, is that when we glorify him we are most content and peaceful in our own lives, no matter the suffering we walk through. You see this testimony time and time again from people who are persecuted and even martyred. Rarely do we see someone strung up for Christ moaning and belly-aching that they wish they could take it all back. No! Such peace and joy propels them forward. Why is this? They have learnt in their ultimate sufferings what we, in our comfort and theological musings, often do not. God IS Sovereign in any experience, even the evil ones, and Jesus Christ IS worth any price at all.
This is what I see...but...I could be wrong!
I agree. Those who can, even in the most dire of circumstances, live a life of holiness and die with praises on their lips, are true witnesses that God is love, and worthy of our worship.
But how do we, by our lifestyles, prove Satan wrong in his idea that God's government and His laws are not worthy of our obedience? We make all manner of excuses that His commandments cannot be obeyed, even to the point of saying they were abolished because we couldn't obey them... How does that help God's cause in the courtroom? How can we be true witnesses when we openly declare God's laws cannot be kept? Are we not agreeing with Lucifer's first rebellion that God's form of governance must be unfair and unjust?
 

Waiting on him

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But 90% of the world side with Lucifer. They reject God's government... They refuse to obey His laws... Even professing Christians declare that God's laws cannot be obeyed and are therefore insinuate they are too demanding, unfair, unjust. By rebelling, Lucifer was declaring that he, as a prince, could rule better. And by their actions, even Christians agree. Doesn't seem to me to be such a closed case when even God's own people are going along with the opposition that says God's ways are impossible to follow.
I don’t see this as a race I run to display what I can do, but rather a race where Christ display what He’s done.
Example;

Psalm 19:4-5 KJV
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, [5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Notice who is running the race, for me to state it’s me diminishes His Glory. I’m just a vessel.
Tecarta Bible
 
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brakelite

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I don’t see this as a race I run to display what I can do, but rather a race where Christ display what He’s done.
Example;

Psalm 19:4-5 KJV
[4] Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, [5] Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Notice who is running the race, for me to state it’s me diminishes His Glory. I’m just a vessel.
Tecarta Bible
I agree. And that is precisely the point. When Christians declare the commandments cannot be kept, and accuse those who declare they can as being legalusts, those accusers are saying that God had made impossible laws and punishes that unfairly because He doesn't lift a finger to help. Yet the opposite is true. We can, by faith in the grace and power of Christ, obey all the commandments. And yes, it is God's doing... From beginning to end... And Christ gave His life to accomplish it.
Out witness to God's saving power must be in our overcoming sin and our walking in holiness and righteousness... That walk can only be accomplished by faith... But it can be accomplished, and that witness is what makes Satan the liar when he declared of Job, he only obeyed you because you bless him. We need to obey, not because there's a reward to come, but because we recognise God's authority and it is simply the right thing to do. And how do we obey? By yielding to His Spirit... He does the work. But that will never be so long as we declare its impossible and our sin is greater than Christ's righteousness.
 
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Naomi25

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I agree. Those who can, even in the most dire of circumstances, live a life of holiness and die with praises on their lips, are true witnesses that God is love, and worthy of our worship.
But how do we, by our lifestyles, prove Satan wrong in his idea that God's government and His laws are not worthy of our obedience? We make all manner of excuses that His commandments cannot be obeyed, even to the point of saying they were abolished because we couldn't obey them... How does that help God's cause in the courtroom? How can we be true witnesses when we openly declare God's laws cannot be kept? Are we not agreeing with Lucifer's first rebellion that God's form of governance must be unfair and unjust?

Ahh...I truly don't wish to, but I fear I may get sucked into a major theological debate on this issue, where we perhaps...alright, clearly, disagree....I would start by putting up this quote I found the other day.
"Genuine freedom liberates believers to do what is good. Those who use freedom as license for evil reveal that they are not truly free since a life of wickedness is the very definition of slavery." - Dr Tom Schreiner on 1 Pet 2:16
Grace, where it is received genuinely within the soul of a repentent and thankful believer, is never taken with a 'as I choose' to live with a total and absolute disregard for God and his statutes. Not because we MUST keep his laws in order to recieve or keep salvation. But because we know his laws are good, and right, and just...just as he is. We don't murder, because it would grieve God. We don't hate, or slander, or steal, because it would grieve God. And while our 'not' doing these things is not what earns or keeps us in his grace, it is where the genuine believer dwells out of love, and joy and awe.
I feel I also must add...yes...there are people who struggle with certain sins. And I suppose sometimes these people are those who are false, who just callously disregard the need or want to live in a manner their Saviour would have when he trod the earth. But, sometimes there are genuine believers who love the Lord with All. Their. Might. And yet they still struggle. They know it wrong. They weep, they fight, they pray. And yet they stumble. I think there is that in most of us, if we are honest. And I think we must be very, very careful at labelling them as false, as lawbreakers, or any such nonsense. Jesus Christ died for sinners, and grace keeps them, and us, returning to him in faith and love, til the day they die. That is an amazing battle that speaks of an amazing love. On his side, on ours.
And honestly, I cannot think of a better 'witness', can you? A love on his side that is all forgiving, all encompassing, all supporting in growth, and then one on our side where we cling in every situation, returning again and again, knowing we have a home, a Father; one who holds our hand as we seek to put sin to death and grow in holiness.
 
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brakelite

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Ahh...I truly don't wish to, but I fear I may get sucked into a major theological debate on this issue, where we perhaps...alright, clearly, disagree....I would start by putting up this quote I found the other day.
"Genuine freedom liberates believers to do what is good. Those who use freedom as license for evil reveal that they are not truly free since a life of wickedness is the very definition of slavery." - Dr Tom Schreiner on 1 Pet 2:16
Grace, where it is received genuinely within the soul of a repentent and thankful believer, is never taken with a 'as I choose' to live with a total and absolute disregard for God and his statutes. Not because we MUST keep his laws in order to recieve or keep salvation. But because we know his laws are good, and right, and just...just as he is. We don't murder, because it would grieve God. We don't hate, or slander, or steal, because it would grieve God. And while our 'not' doing these things is not what earns or keeps us in his grace, it is where the genuine believer dwells out of love, and joy and awe.
I feel I also must add...yes...there are people who struggle with certain sins. And I suppose sometimes these people are those who are false, who just callously disregard the need or want to live in a manner their Saviour would have when he trod the earth. But, sometimes there are genuine believers who love the Lord with All. Their. Might. And yet they still struggle. They know it wrong. They weep, they fight, they pray. And yet they stumble. I think there is that in most of us, if we are honest. And I think we must be very, very careful at labelling them as false, as lawbreakers, or any such nonsense. Jesus Christ died for sinners, and grace keeps them, and us, returning to him in faith and love, til the day they die. That is an amazing battle that speaks of an amazing love. On his side, on ours.
And honestly, I cannot think of a better 'witness', can you? A love on his side that is all forgiving, all encompassing, all supporting in growth, and then one on our side where we cling in every situation, returning again and again, knowing we have a home, a Father; one who holds our hand as we seek to put sin to death and grow in holiness.
We need to obey, not because there's a reward to come, but because we recognise God's authority and it is simply the right thing to do. And how do we obey? By yielding to His Spirit... He does the work. But that will never be so long as we declare its impossible and our sin is greater than Christ's righteousness.
I don't think we are that far apart.
 

Naomi25

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I don't think we are that far apart.
Maybe not...but maybe. While I believe fully and completely that Christians who are wholely changed WANT to know live for Christ in a manner worthy of what they have recieved, there IS still that sticky debate over whether or not people are capable or not...and that is where our differences might become more evident.
Don't get me wrong, I think that a new heart in Christ is set free to conquer sin in a way that we were not able to before, but we still fall short of perfection. We are not Christ, and we are not yet what we will be.
Paul shows in Romans 1:18-3:20 that all men violate the law. We can't help it. And Christ showed this by revealing that even men who do not murder are still murdering if they hate, and so on. The law is violated in multiple different ways just by our betraying emotions, even if we do not act upon them. Paul then goes on in Galatians 3 to tell us that if we reply upon the law even slightly to prove our righteousness, then we must rely on it in fullness, rather than on Christ. Which, we've seen in scripture, is impossible.
Therefore we must understand that righteousness...salvation, comes through faith in Christ...alone! Living a life of obedience and good works comes after that. Not because we need to in order to earn or keep salvation, but in response to the great grace and mercy shown us. It is in this way that a Christian need not fear falling or stumbling as they attempt to live this way. As we all do. No, as we are under grace and mercy, and our salvation relies on Christ alone, we have that wonderful freedom to take his hand, get back up and walk onwards, towards him.
 
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Truth

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This thread could get ugly...

To the three witnesses, on the stand, the defense asks:
1)As you believe in God, do you admit that His rebellious angel, luci/satan, opposes Him in all that he does?
2)Do you admit that luci/satan preyed on Adam and Eve, with the result being that the earthly kingdom defaulted to luci/satan?
3)Do you admit disobeying God and rejecting God's Son, Jesus Christ, as a final sacrifice for your sins?
4)Do you admit to continuuing in disobeying God during the time of and preceding this war?
5)Do you admit God could have turned you over to luci/satan's control for your continual rejecting and disobeying of Him?
6)Is luci/satan ultimately responsible for the actions of humans under his control?
7)Is luci/satan ultimately responsible for the physical actions (killing and torturing) of humans under his control herein the timeframe on earth?
8)Will you now obey the one true God?

You present 8 Questions, of which you give credence to the one deceiver of mankind!
In all reality, Rabbinic Judaism started 300+ years before the birth of the Savior, and during His Ministry we see that He was taking them to task.

I do not know if you have ever heard that the Torah was a Fence, or a Hedge, Spiritually speaking, around the People. If they had stayed inside of the Torah [ Law] then God would have protected them!
Early Pharisse-ism is the start of, and is in extension to this day, called Rabbinic Judaism, of which these Jews, Rabbis, made all sorts of commandments, they claim to have put a new fence around the Torah to keep their People from breaking the Torah, so a fence around the fence, so to speak!! While Breaking the Commandment, Thou Shalt Not Add To, or Diminish From the Words of God!
So These men that followed what the Rabbis instruct, were and still are Guilty. So they Basically threw themselves under the Bus!

I do Agree that Satan has used influence to lead them to destruction, But they were also blinded, for a reason! If their blindness in part is to your Glory, what will be when their sight returns. Paul is a perfect example!!
Yes, Knowledge and acceptance of the Savior is Paramount to Salvation, yet as stated, after Judging God they did return to lifting Prayer up to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the one True God of Israel. Desperate Time's incur Desperate Measures, maybe they found Solace in their court, Remember there is but one unforgiveable sin, and that is to Insult the Very Spirit Of God.