The "watch rapture view"

[covenantee]

There are no Roman armies destroying Jerusalem in Daniel 12, because the abomination of desolation of Daniel 12:11 is not 70ad.

The abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15 is the Roman armies of Luke 21:20 is the people that destroy the city and the sanctuary of Daniel 9:26.

Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 are end times.

They are 70 AD.

Also Daniel 9:27, the 7 year 70th week is end times. Those 7 years are the same 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the Gog/Magog attack on Israel in the end times.

The 70th week was fulfilled 2,000 years ago at Calvary by Christ the Covenant Confirmer. Daniel 9:27

We are living in the end times.

The last days began 2,000 years ago.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[David in NJ]

You said, "Read and BELIEVE the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE."

Your wording allowed me to infer you were implying what I said. If I was mistaken, I apologize.

If you posted the same to me i would say = AMEN

i love the Holy Scriptures of Truth and even more, the Holy Spirit who is our Guide thru the Scriptures.

until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming.” (Ephesians 4:13-14)

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thank God that the saints of His Judaean Church were immeasurably smarter than you.

As 70 AD approached, they remembered, understood, and acted upon, Jesus' warning; and fled, and survived.
God preserved His Judaean Church.

Meanwhile back in Jerusalem, what is it we see?
TS's sad psychoses, hanging on a tree.
But not without company.
"So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies." (Wars of the Jews, V.11.1)

Your sarcasm only proves how shallow your understanding of prophecy truly is. You’ve traded the weight of Scripture for the comfort of a fulfilled past — while mocking the warnings of Jesus as if they were merely about a Roman invasion.


Jesus wasn’t pointing to a one-time historical event—He was describing the final and unrepeatable Great Tribulation that will precede His return (Matthew 24:21-22). No amount of Josephus quoting will change the fact that Jesus' words extend far beyond 70 AD. He warned of a time unlike any before or after, not a regional skirmish with Titus that history easily forgot except in warped preterist circles.


You say God preserved His "Judaean Church" — yet Revelation shows the faithful remnant is preserved from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world (Revelation 3:10), not just from a siege on one city.

You mock “psychoses hanging on a tree”? Blasphemous. The true Christ hung on a tree, bearing the sins of the world—not some twisted metaphor for those who held fast to faith. If you truly believe God’s people were all saved in 70 AD, where is His Church now? Where is the Kingdom? The resurrection? The visible return of the Son of Man in glory?


You're clinging to a doctrine that strips Jesus of His future judgment and return. The true saints do not mock; they wait with soberness, discernment, and trembling for what is still to come. You're not defending fulfilled prophecy—you’re denying future prophecy, scoffer! Simple as that!

“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers... saying, ‘Where is the promise of his coming?’” (2 Peter 3:3–4)

You’re proving that Scripture still speaks—even now, about people like you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15 is the Roman armies of Luke 21:20 is the people that destroy the city and the sanctuary of Daniel 9:26.

They are 70 AD.

The 70th week was fulfilled 2,000 years ago at Calvary by Christ the Covenant Confirmer. Daniel 9:27

The last days began 2,000 years ago.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

You both missed the point entirely.

Preterists obsess over Jerusalem in 70 AD, while Premillennialists drool over modern-day Israel, waiting for red heifers and third temple blueprints—as if the Kingdom of God is built with bricks and animal sacrifices.

Both camps are stuck in the physical, carnal realm, trying to force eternal, spiritual truths into temporary, earthly events. It’s no wonder they misread prophecy—they interpret with natural eyes instead of spiritual discernment.

The true Jerusalem is not that blood-soaked city in the Middle East, past or present. “But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother” (Galatians 4:26). Christ is not coming to reign in a physical temple built by unbelievers—He already reigns from the right hand of God, and His temple is His body, the Church (Ephesians 2:20-22).

Both sides—Preterist and Premillennial—need to stop idolizing physical geography and start hearing what the Spirit says to the churches.

Until then, you're just arguing over which pile of rubble God supposedly favored.

 

[David in NJ]

You both missed the point entirely.

Preterists obsess over Jerusalem in 70 AD, while Premillennialists drool over modern-day Israel, waiting for red heifers and third temple blueprints—as if the Kingdom of God is built with bricks and animal sacrifices.

Both camps are stuck in the physical, carnal realm, trying to force eternal, spiritual truths into temporary, earthly events. It’s no wonder they misread prophecy—they interpret with natural eyes instead of spiritual discernment.

The true Jerusalem is not that blood-soaked city in the Middle East, past or present. “But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother” (Galatians 4:26). Christ is not coming to reign in a physical temple built by unbelievers—He already reigns from the right hand of God, and His temple is His body, the Church (Ephesians 2:20-22).

Both sides—Preterist and Premillennial—need to stop idolizing physical geography and start hearing what the Spirit says to the churches.

Until then, you're just arguing over which pile of rubble God supposedly favored.

Two Jerusalems

one on earth that is in "bondage"

One that is Above, and the Mother of those who are SAVED in CHRIST"

Now that there are TWO Jerusalems = can you now see that there remains prophecy for the "one in bondage" as well as for the One that is Above

 

[Davidpt]

You both missed the point entirely.

Preterists obsess over Jerusalem in 70 AD, while Premillennialists drool over modern-day Israel, waiting for red heifers and third temple blueprints—as if the Kingdom of God is built with bricks and animal sacrifices.

Both camps are stuck in the physical, carnal realm, trying to force eternal, spiritual truths into temporary, earthly events. It’s no wonder they misread prophecy—they interpret with natural eyes instead of spiritual discernment.

The true Jerusalem is not that blood-soaked city in the Middle East, past or present. “But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother” (Galatians 4:26). Christ is not coming to reign in a physical temple built by unbelievers—He already reigns from the right hand of God, and His temple is His body, the Church (Ephesians 2:20-22).

Both sides—Preterist and Premillennial—need to stop idolizing physical geography and start hearing what the Spirit says to the churches.

Until then, you're just arguing over which pile of rubble God supposedly favored.

What you should have said is this--SOME, THUS NOT ALL PREMILS, drool over modern-day Israel, waiting for red heifers and third temple blueprints—as if the Kingdom of God is built with bricks and animal sacrifices. But instead of that you want to paint this with a broad brush as if that is what all Premils do. Which then misrepresents the Premils who don't do those things. Thus your arguments are moot, thus not valid, thus pointless, in regards to any Premils not doing those things.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Two Jerusalems

one on earth that is in "bondage"

One that is Above, and the Mother of those who are SAVED in CHRIST"

Now that there are TWO Jerusalems = can you now see that there remains prophecy for the "one in bondage" as well as for the One that is Above

I think you misunderstood. The Church consists of two kinds of people: those who are truly saved in Christ, and those who merely profess His name without genuine faith. Both are part of the same visible Church. One group is the "chosen," and the other is the "many who are called." That’s why Jesus said of His Church, “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

For example, Eve is the mother of all living because she brought forth all living, right? Likewise, the unfaithful church is the mother of all spiritual fornications. She gave birth to the seed of the serpent by her lies and deceits. All these children she brings forth are committing abominations, and they all came forth from her unfaithfulness. They are products of her spiritual fornications and idolatries with other gods. Selah. Even as a faithful church is the chaste bride of Christ, so the unfaithful church is a filthy harlot that has turned away from her betrothed to worship the beast--even as a harlot would turn to fornicate freely with others.

Isaiah 1:21

• "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers."

How has the faithful city of Holy Jerusalem become the unfaithful city of Babylon the Harlot? By forsaking their God and going after the gods, desires, politics, and pleasures of men. She didn't come into existence in our day, this harlot is the same as God has spoken about time and time again as being "His People." It's not a mystery to those with the Spirit to discern and recognize abominations. This is why God all throughout Scripture uses the term Harlot to represent His unfaithful congregation. Christ's true Witnesses are warned about this increase of iniquity and the love of God growing cold, and in this context forewarn His servants:

Matthew 24:15-16

• "When ye therefore shall SEE the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Flee because it is written:

2nd Corinthians 6:14-18

• "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
• And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
• And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
• Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
• And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

She is an age-old phenomenon as the faithful city that has become a harlot! Truly, the mother of harlots and abominations in the earth. The congregation of God that has fallen away from the faith once delivered to the saints. Many who are under strong delusion will not flee from her abominations because they cannot "see" the abominations. And that will make the church, the once Holy Place, desolate. This is all a secret kept from those who cannot see, like you, so far. Selah.

 

[TribulationSigns]

What you should have said is this--SOME, THUS NOT ALL PREMILS, drool over modern-day Israel, waiting for red heifers and third temple blueprints—as if the Kingdom of God is built with bricks and animal sacrifices. But instead of that you want to paint this with a broad brush as if that is what all Premils do. Which then misrepresents the Premils who don't do those things. Thus your arguments are moot, thus not valid, thus pointless, in regards to any Premils not doing those things.

Really? Then go ahead—show me a single premillennial interpretation, whether dispensational or not, that doesn’t involve Jerusalem in some way—either tied to 70 AD or 1948 AD—when interpreting the 70th week of Daniel, the book of Revelation, or the Olivet Discourse.

 

[covenantee]

Your sarcasm only proves how shallow your understanding of prophecy truly is. You’ve traded the weight of Scripture for the comfort of a fulfilled past — while mocking the warnings of Jesus as if they were merely about a Roman invasion.


Jesus wasn’t pointing to a one-time historical event—He was describing the final and unrepeatable Great Tribulation that will precede His return (Matthew 24:21-22). No amount of Josephus quoting will change the fact that Jesus' words extend far beyond 70 AD. He warned of a time unlike any before or after, not a regional skirmish with Titus that history easily forgot except in warped preterist circles.


You say God preserved His "Judaean Church" — yet Revelation shows the faithful remnant is preserved from the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world (Revelation 3:10), not just from a siege on one city.

You mock “psychoses hanging on a tree”? Blasphemous. The true Christ hung on a tree, bearing the sins of the world—not some twisted metaphor for those who held fast to faith. If you truly believe God’s people were all saved in 70 AD, where is His Church now? Where is the Kingdom? The resurrection? The visible return of the Son of Man in glory?


You're clinging to a doctrine that strips Jesus of His future judgment and return. The true saints do not mock; they wait with soberness, discernment, and trembling for what is still to come. You're not defending fulfilled prophecy—you’re denying future prophecy, scoffer! Simple as that!

“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers... saying, ‘Where is the promise of his coming?’” (2 Peter 3:3–4)

You’re proving that Scripture still speaks—even now, about people like you.

Did God preserve His Judaean Church? Yes
Were they part of His True Church? Yes
Has He always preserved His True Church? Yes
Will He always preserve His True Church? Yes

So what are you blathering about?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Did God preserve His Judaean Church? Yes
Were they part of His True Church? Yes
Has He always preserved His True Church? Yes
Will He always preserve His True Church? Yes

So what are you blathering about?

“Judaean Church”? That’s a manmade label not found anywhere in Scripture! God never divided His True Church by regional nicknames. There is one Body of Christ—not a “Galilean Church,” “Corinthian Church,” or your invented “Judaean Church” to prop up your false preterist narrative. The true Church began at Pentecost, where visiting people from many nations and regions were saved and added to one Spirit-filled body—not some local, sectarian group made to fit your agenda. Selah!

Yes, God preserves His Church—but again, it's not limited to a location or ethnic label which is absurd.

What am I "blathering" about? I'm pointing out your false extra-biblical invention. If you're going to talk doctrine, stick to what’s written—not what you made up.

 

[covenantee]

“Judaean Church”? That’s a manmade label not found anywhere in Scripture! God never divided His True Church by regional nicknames. There is one Body of Christ—not a “Galilean Church,” “Corinthian Church,” or your invented “Judaean Church” to prop up your false preterist narrative. The true Church began at Pentecost, where visiting people from many nations and regions were saved and added to one Spirit-filled body—not some local, sectarian group made to fit your agenda. Selah!

Yes, God preserves His Church—but again, it's not limited to a location or ethnic label which is absurd.

What am I "blathering" about? I'm pointing out your false extra-biblical invention. If you're going to talk doctrine, stick to what’s written—not what you made up.

Why are you referring to "His True Church"? That’s a manmade label not found anywhere in Scripture!

 

[pandaflower]

“Judaean Church”? That’s a manmade label not found anywhere in Scripture! God never divided His True Church by regional nicknames. There is one Body of Christ—not a “Galilean Church,” “Corinthian Church,” or your invented “Judaean Church” to prop up your false preterist narrative. The true Church began at Pentecost, where visiting people from many nations and regions were saved and added to one Spirit-filled body—not some local, sectarian group made to fit your agenda. Selah!

Yes, God preserves His Church—but again, it's not limited to a location or ethnic label which is absurd.

What am I "blathering" about? I'm pointing out your false extra-biblical invention. If you're going to talk doctrine, stick to what’s written—not what you made up.

Galatians 1:22
And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.

 

[pandaflower]

Topical Bible: The Churches of Judea

The Judean churches refer to early Christian communities established in the region of Judea, which played a significant role in the spread of Christianity after Jesus' resurrection. These churches faced persecution and challenges, as noted in various New Testament writings, including Paul's letters.

Did the churches in Judea know Paul? Why Acts and Galatians contradict Ehrman

2. Did the churches in Judea know Paul? Here again Paul is quite clear. Sometime after he converted he went around to various churches in the regions of Syria and Cilicia, but he “was still u…

essentialchurch.net

 

[covenantee]

Topical Bible: The Churches of Judea

The Judean churches refer to early Christian communities established in the region of Judea, which played a significant role in the spread of Christianity after Jesus' resurrection. These churches faced persecution and challenges, as noted in various New Testament writings, including Paul's letters.

Did the churches in Judea know Paul? Why Acts and Galatians contradict Ehrman

2. Did the churches in Judea know Paul? Here again Paul is quite clear. Sometime after he converted he went around to various churches in the regions of Syria and Cilicia, but he “was still u…

essentialchurch.net

He doesn't believe it, because it does not conform to the letter to his psychotic hallucinations.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why are you referring to "His True Church"? That’s a manmade label not found anywhere in Scripture!

Oh really? You mock the term “His True Church”—yet the Bible clearly identifies it. The elect are Christ’s true Church, chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), sanctified by the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13), and called out of the world to be His own (John 15:19).

Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (John 10:27). He doesn’t say some generic group—He calls them My sheep. That’s the Church—the called-out ones, the elect, the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18).

So yes, Christ does have a “True Church.” Not a manmade institution, but a blood-bought, Spirit-filled, elect people from every nation (Revelation 5:9). Deny that, and you’re not arguing with me—you’re arguing with Scripture.

 

[covenantee]

Oh really? You mock the term “His True Church”—yet the Bible clearly identifies it. The elect are Christ’s true Church, chosen before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), sanctified by the Spirit and belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13), and called out of the world to be His own (John 15:19).

Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (John 10:27). He doesn’t say some generic group—He calls them My sheep. That’s the Church—the called-out ones, the elect, the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18).

So yes, Christ does have a “True Church.” Not a manmade institution, but a blood-bought, Spirit-filled, elect people from every nation (Revelation 5:9). Deny that, and you’re not arguing with me—you’re arguing with Scripture.

Provide one example where the exact expression "His True Church" appears in Scripture.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Judean churches refer to early Christian communities established in the region of Judea, which played a significant role in the spread of Christianity after Jesus' resurrection. These churches faced persecution and challenges, as noted in various New Testament writings, including Paul's letters.

Yes, Galatians 1:22 refers to “the churches of Judea that are in Christ”—but that’s NOT a doctrinal title like “The Judaean Church.” Paul is simply referring to local congregations in a geographical area who are part of the one universal Body of Christ. Scripture regularly refers to churches in regions—like the churches of Galatia (Galatians 1:2), Macedonia (2 Corinthians 8:1), or even Asia (Revelation 1:11). That’s geography, not theology.

There is only one Church—the elect body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6)—made up of many local assemblies across the world. So twisting a regional reference into a theological category like “The Judaean Church” is adding to Scripture.

If you want to be biblical, stay with the biblical terms. Christ's true Church is the elect, drawn from every region, tribe, and tongue—not confined to Judea or invented labels.

Ephesians 1:22-23: “...the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”
Romans 12:5: “So we, though many, are one body in Christ.”

That’s the True Church Christ recognizes—not regional fragments.

 

[covenantee]

Yes, Galatians 1:22 refers to “the churches of Judea that are in Christ”—but that’s NOT a doctrinal title like “The Judaean Church.” Paul is simply referring to local congregations in a geographical area who are part of the one universal Body of Christ. Scripture regularly refers to churches in regions—like the churches of Galatia (Galatians 1:2), Macedonia (2 Corinthians 8:1), or even Asia (Revelation 1:11). That’s geography, not theology.

There is only one Church—the elect body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6)—made up of many local assemblies across the world. So twisting a regional reference into a theological category like “The Judaean Church” is adding to Scripture.

If you want to be biblical, stay with the biblical terms. Christ's true Church is the elect, drawn from every region, tribe, and tongue—not confined to Judea or invented labels.

Ephesians 1:22-23: “...the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”
Romans 12:5: “So we, though many, are one body in Christ.”

That’s the True Church Christ recognizes—not regional fragments.

The exact expression "one universal Body of Christ" does not appear in Scripture.

Stop using it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Provide one example where the exact expression "His True Church" appears in Scripture.

Ha-ha. You’re demanding the exact phrase “His True Church” as if that somehow invalidates the doctrine. Not at all! By that logic, we should throw out the word “Bible”, “Trinity”, and even “Millennium”—none of which appear in Scripture by exact phrase, yet are clearly understood and accepted based on biblical truths.

Instead of playing games with semantics, why not deal with what Scripture actually teaches?

• Matthew 16:18 — “I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” That’s His Church.
• John 10:14 — “I am the good shepherd. I know My own, and My own know Me.” His sheep, His elect.
• Ephesians 5:27 — “That He might present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle... but that she would be holy and blameless.” That’s His pure, true Church.
• 2 Timothy 2:19 — “The Lord knows those who are His.”

So whether you like the phrase “His True Church” or not, Scripture is crystal clear: Christ has a people, they belong to Him, and they are not everyone who simply claims His name (Matthew 7:21-23).


You’re not disproving anything, as usual. You're just exposing your refusal to acknowledge what the Bible plainly reveals. Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

The exact expression "one universal Body of Christ" does not appear in Scripture.

Stop using it.

Not only are you in denial - you are playing a word game to avoid the truth. Grow up.