The Woman Wonder in Heaven (Rev 12) isn't Israel:

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Dave Watchman

Active Member
May 14, 2017
291
89
28
Patmos
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Genesis 37 is where the first time the description of the symbolic woman of Revelation 12 is given. Joseph's brethren are shown symbolically as the 11 stars, and Joseph's mother and father are shown symbolically as the sun and moon.

So the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12 DOES... represent God's Israel. At first it is about historical Israel prior to Christ, and then about Christ's Church as God's Israel per the last Revelation 12 verse. Thus the WHOLE chapter is relevant to Christ's Church!

That probably sounds about right to me.

You got some 144 action going on there, so you must be in the right.

pV23hFU.png


The Revelation 12 Woman is God's faithful People.

From all times.

Sounds backwards to some, like how did the Church give birth to Jesus? Wasn't it the other way around?

It's like the phrase: "necessity is the mother of invention.

God's fallen people were in dire need of a Saviour.

Therefore the Woman, the Bride of Christ, brought forth the Man Child.

And the Dragon, working through Herod, tried to kill Him.

But He was caught up to God's throne.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.
 

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
3,893
1,920
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where did Israel get started? God changed Jacob's name to Israel and his twelve sons generate into the twelve tribes and then into millions. That is where God's church began. Even Joseph's dream forecast who Israel was composed of - (sun, moon and 11 stars, not including himself) - which is symbolic for Israel.
There are multiple literal and symbolic meanings we can get from Rev. 12
Gen. 1:14 tells us that the lights in the heavens are to separate day and night, for seasons and years but also for signs.
Rev. 12:1 tells us where to look, up in the heavens. It is an astronomical sign, Virgo (a woman) clothed with the sun (literally) a d thr moon at her feet with 12 stars (a few being planets) around her head.
This constelation occurred on Sept. 11, 3 BC and was either Jesus Bday or a sign of His coming. It also occured on 9-23-2017, another sign of his coming.
The ancient Israelites used the Mazzaroth, for signs and seasons. (Job 38:32) It means the Zodiac. Some scholars have drawn a correlation between the 12 tribes and the 12 constellations ... I won't get into that.
Satan fell from heaven and took 1/3 of the angels with him is historical.
He tried to kill Jesus after he was born through Herod but the woman (symbolic for Mary) escaped into the wilderness (Egypt) and was protected - likely for around 3 1/2 years. That's history. Heor likely died in Dec. 1 BC (during a more visible eclipse)
Later, Christ came and grafted the Gentiles into that Vine, a spiritual body. But it is clear that God has preserved that blood line as seen in Rev. 7 & 14. (All 12 tribes) And so Israel will be grafted in soon. (see Rom. 11)
So it is a literal sign in the heavens as well as a symbolic signs.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,902
2,536
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A crown of twelve stars doesn't make the Woman wearing it ...Israel. If you read through the thread you would understand Israel is the seed ...not The Woman.

The seed of the Woman starting in Genesis 3 is relative to the Church, since that seed represents the family that Christ would be born through, specifically the tribe of JUDAH, which Judah became one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Just can't get around that with your limited doctrines of man.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,902
2,536
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That probably sounds about right to me.

You got some 144 action going on there, so you must be in the right.

pV23hFU.png


The Revelation 12 Woman is God's faithful People.

From all times.

Sounds backwards to some, like how did the Church give birth to Jesus? Wasn't it the other way around?

It's like the phrase: "necessity is the mother of invention.

God's fallen people were in dire need of a Saviour.

Therefore the Woman, the Bride of Christ, brought forth the Man Child.

And the Dragon, working through Herod, tried to kill Him.

But He was caught up to God's throne.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

Most Christian brethren don't study the Old Testament Books, they think that was all history, so they don't know the Genesis 37 Scripture symbols linked to the symbolic woman of Revelation 12 even exists. Nor do they understand about the concept of God's Israel from its beginning, and I am speaking of the Old Testament faithful like Hebrews 11 does, and Paul in Galatians 3 revealing that the Gospel was preached to Abraham, and thus those of Faith are the "children of Abraham", Abraham being the first to be given The Gospel promise, and he believed God, and thus God accounted Abraham's Faith as righteousness.
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A. Jerusalem Is the City and Mother of Israel
Isaiah 49:18 ...this one is wild.
Psalms 149:2 / Isaiah 12:6 / Isaiah 49:20, Isaiah 49:22 / Isaiah 51:18 / Lamentations 4:2

B. Jerusalem Is The City and Mother of Christians
Galatians 4:26 / Hebrews 12:22
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,902
2,536
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A. Jerusalem Is the City and Mother of Israel
Isaiah 49:18 ...this one is wild.
Psalms 149:2 / Isaiah 12:6 / Isaiah 49:20, Isaiah 49:22 / Isaiah 51:18 / Lamentations 4:2

B. Jerusalem Is The City and Mother of Christians
Galatians 4:26 / Hebrews 12:22

Depends on which Jerusalem, because TODAY'S Jerusalem here on earth is in BONDAGE, and has nothing to do with Christians, which is why for the tribulation at the end Jesus commanded His to flee Judea when the "abomination of desolation" idol is setup there at the end. And Jesus also commanded His in the countries to NOT enter into Jerusalem at that time either.

The Jerusalem above (Heavenly Jerusalem) is FREE, and is the Jerusalem those in Christ are joined to. It will come down to this earth and REPLACE the Jerusalem on earth today that is in bondage.
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jerusalem Is the City and Mother of Israel

...looks like the Woman with Twelve stars turned into a whore?

[Rev 17:15 KJV]
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

[Rev 17:16 KJV]
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

// 70 A.D.


[Rev 17:17 KJV]
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

[Rev 17:18 KJV]
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marty fox

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's why it's a "New" Jerusalem that comes down out of Heaven:


[Rev 3:12 KJV]
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

[Rev 21:2 KJV]
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marty fox

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Moon (Old Covenant) is Mount Sinai for The Woman (The City) to stand on. Bondage to the Law of sin and death.

Gal 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:26
But Jerusalem WHICH IS ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all.
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no mention of a Moon with New Jerusalem because the Old Covenant is done.

It's comical the way people ignore the reason JESUS ended Jerusalem ...hello ...Jerusalem (The City/Woman) turned evil.

New Jerusalem, New Woman.
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did Jerusalem (The Woman) become babylon (whore) ...and fell in 70 A.D.?

[Rev 14:8 NKJV]
And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

[Rev 18:2 NKJV]
And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!

[Rev 17:16 KJV]
And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


Do you think, just maybe, GOD wasn't a fan of Jerusalem if He spiritually labeled It this?:
[Rev 11:8 KJV]
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 
Last edited:

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is something weird going on here. Why would we wail for her? Does The Woman go back and forth between being good and then evil?

[Jer 51:8 NKJV]
Babylon has suddenly fallen and been destroyed. Wail for her! Take balm for her pain; Perhaps she may be healed.
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Commanding a mountain to move ...is telling a false religion/doctrine or excuses to continue in sin ...to move. To stop blocking your path to SALVATION.

------------------------------
This fig tree represented unfruitful Jerusalem (The Woman). ...a mountain to move.
------------------------------

Matthew 21:21
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

------------------------------
Do you see something weird about this mountain?
------------------------------

[Jer 51:24 NKJV]
"And I will repay Babylon And all the inhabitants of Chaldea For all the evil they have done In Zion in your sight," says the LORD.
[Jer 51:25 NKJV]
"Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys all the earth," says the LORD. "And I will stretch out My hand against you, Roll you down from the rocks, And make you a burnt mountain.

[Jer 51:49 NKJV]
As Babylon has caused the slain of Israel to fall, So at Babylon the slain of all the earth shall fall.
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What's weird about Jeremiah 51 ...is that physical babylon wasn't destroyed like this ...the Israelites walked out of there. So when GOD Talks about using a stone from it ...i think He means one of their false religion ideas. As you already know, JESUS is a Corner Stone.

Jer 51:26
They shall not take from you a stone for a corner
Nor a stone for a foundation,
But you shall be desolate forever,” says the LORD.

Jer 51:20
“You are My battle-ax and weapons of war:
For with you I will break the nation in pieces;
With you I will destroy kingdoms;
 

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So the question is ...was Jerusalem (the whore) ...the babylon He was destroying?

Jer 51:29
And the land will tremble and sorrow;
For every purpose of the LORD shall be performed against Babylon,
To make the land of Babylon a desolation without inhabitant.

"daughter of Babylon"???

Jer 51:33
For thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel:

The daughter of Babylon is like a threshing floor
When it is time to thresh her;
Yet a little while
And the time of her harvest will come.”


Jer 50:42
They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.
 
Last edited:

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
[Jer 50:12 NKJV]
YOUR MOTHER shall be deeply ashamed; She who bore you shall be ashamed. Behold, the least of the nations shall be a wilderness, A dry land and a desert.

[Jer 50:13 NKJV]
Because of the wrath of the LORD She shall not be inhabited, But she shall be wholly desolate. Everyone who goes by Babylon shall be horrified And hiss at ALL HER PLAGUES.

The Pregnant Woman standing on the moon (mount Sinai (Old Covenant)) was New/Heavenly Jerusalem that gave Birth to CHRIST.

It was the New Mother after exile happened. New because She was previously left wholly desolate.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
68
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is the Woman with the twelve stars (Tribes) standing on the moon (Mosaic Law/Moses/Old Covenant)?

If Jacob/Israel was born of the Woman and then the Reborn Christians (still Jacob) became Children through CHRIST ...then the Woman isn't Israel?



[Rev 12:1 KJV]
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

[Rev 12:2 KJV]
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

[Rev 12:3 KJV]
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

[Rev 12:4 KJV]
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[Rev 12:5 KJV]
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

[Rev 12:6 KJV]
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.


--------------------------------------

Romans 8:22-23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Matthew 24:8-9
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

In the inspired prophecies, women at times represent organizations “married” to outstanding personalities. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel was spoken of as a wife of YHWH God. (Jeremiah 3:14) In the Greek Scriptures, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14) The woman John here sees is also married to someone, and she is about to give birth. Who is her husband? Well, later her child is “caught away to God and to his throne.” (Revelation 12:5) YHWH thus claims the child as his own. Therefore, the woman that John sees must be YHWH God's symbolic wife.

About eight centuries earlier, YHWH had addressed this symbolic wife, saying: “All your sons will be persons taught by YHWH.” (Isaiah 54:5, 13) Jesus quoted this prophecy and showed that these sons were his faithful followers, who later formed the congregation of anointed Christians. (John 6:44, 45) So members of this congregation, spoken of as God’s sons, are also children of God’s symbolic wife. (Romans 8:14) The apostle Paul adds the final piece of information when he says: “The Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” (Galatians 4:26) The “woman” seen by John, then, is “the Jerusalem above.”

Exactly what, though, is Jerusalem above? Since Paul spoke of her as “above,” and John sees her in heaven, she is clearly not an earthly city; neither is she the same as “New Jerusalem,” since that organization is the bride of Christ, not YHWH God's wife. (Revelation 21:2) Notice that she is crowned with 12 stars. The number 12 is associated with completeness in an organizational setting. Hence, these 12 stars seem to indicate that she is an organizational arrangement in heaven, just as ancient Jerusalem was on earth. Jerusalem above is YHWH God's universal organization of spirit creatures that acts as his wife, both in serving him and in producing offspring.
 
Last edited:

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
New Jerusalem is standing on a desolate moon for a reason.

The Law of sin and death vanished away. There isn't a Covenant for a Jew to be a Jew anymore.

Why does the New Jerusalem that descends out of Heaven look subspecialty like Her?


Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
 
Last edited:

pittsburghjoe

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2021
1,421
285
83
West PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Were the Apostles part of New Jerusalem?

Paul says something curious here:
[Gal 4:19 KJV]
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

New Jerusalem
[Rev 12:1 KJV]
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

[Rev 12:2 KJV]
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


And then John does also:
[1Jo 2:1 KJV]
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,902
2,536
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What a WHACKED thread. I'd be very careful about believing things written on this THREAD.