The Woman Wonder in Heaven (Rev 12) isn't Israel:

[pittsburghjoe]

Is the Woman with the twelve stars (Tribes) standing on the moon (Mosaic Law/Moses/Old Covenant)?

If Jacob/Israel was born of the Woman and then the Reborn Christians (still Jacob) became Children through CHRIST ...then the Woman isn't Israel?


[Rev 12:1 KJV]
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

[Rev 12:2 KJV]
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

[Rev 12:3 KJV]
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

[Rev 12:4 KJV]
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[Rev 12:5 KJV]
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

[Rev 12:6 KJV]
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.


--------------------------------------

Romans 8:22-23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Matthew 24:8-9
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Satan reads and knows scripture too!!! Count the cost!!

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Satan reads and knows scripture too!!! Count the cost!!

Oh, this completely ruins Premillennialism doesn't it? i get why are you are calling me satan.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Is the Woman with the twelve stars (Tribes) standing on the moon (Mosaic Law/Moses/Old Covenant)?

If Jacob/Israel was born of the Woman and then the Reborn Christians (still Jacob) became Children through CHRIST ...then the Woman isn't Israel?


[Rev 12:1 KJV]
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

[Rev 12:2 KJV]
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

[Rev 12:3 KJV]
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

[Rev 12:4 KJV]
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[Rev 12:5 KJV]
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

[Rev 12:6 KJV]
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.


--------------------------------------

Romans 8:22-23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Matthew 24:8-9
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

Did I miss something??? Did you say who you think the woman is and I missed it?

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Did I miss something??? Did you say who you think the woman is and I missed it?

Not that it matters, but i think It is Lady Wisdom or The Spirit of The Body of CHRIST.

The point of the post is that the Reborn are Jacob (Israel) also ...this is a very real problem for Premills.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Jacob/Israel became The Body of CHRIST ...The Born Again ...The Ones with LIFE ...The Ones with a Living Relationship with GOD. GOD'S Kingdom. One with CHRIST.

 

[Timtofly]

Oh, this completely ruins Premillennialism doesn't it? i get why are you are calling me satan.

How does the life of Christ ruin pre-mil? The life of Christ is the pre-mill stance. Amil don't have Christ on earth. These verses do not refute the return of Christ to earth as Prince.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

How does the life of Christ ruin pre-mil? The life of Christ is the pre-mill stance. Amil don't have Christ on earth. These verses do not refute the return of Christ to earth as Prince.

Entering The Kingdom is a Living Relationship with CHRIST. Your Premill view says that doesn't have to happen until the end of time. They offset everything to the future instead cleaning their Temple today. i keep telling you that the majority are waiting for a physical temple or a real mark of the beast to get Right with GOD.

GOD doesn't give signs to dead spirits!

We die in CHRIST so that we can Join Him in His Everlasting Life with Resurrection.

Romans 6:7-12
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Rom 8:10-11
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Col 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'll have to disagree and state that the woman of Revelation 12 that birthed Christ is Israel.

 

[The Light]

Not that it matters, but i think It is Lady Wisdom or The Spirit of The Body of CHRIST.

The point of the post is that the Reborn are Jacob (Israel) also ...this is a very real problem for Premills.

I'm kinda missing what the problem is. Israel is the woman so what you are saying is incorrect. Additionally Jacob had two brides. Leah and the chosen bride Rachel, even as Christ will have two brides.

 

[Timtofly]

Entering The Kingdom is a Living Relationship with CHRIST. Your Premill view says that doesn't have to happen until the end of time. They offset everything to the future instead cleaning their Temple today. i keep telling you that the majority are waiting for a physical temple or a real mark of the beast to get Right with GOD.

GOD doesn't give signs to dead spirits!

We die in CHRIST so that we can Join Him in His Everlasting Life with Resurrection.

Romans 6:7-12
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Rom 8:10-11
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Col 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Not all pre-mill say the church remains on earth. You are denying the earth for Israel by the promise given to Abraham that the earth would forever be his inheritance. Abraham is not the church. Christ is the church. The church is currently in Paradise. That is where they reign. Israel remains on physical earth.

What you reject in error is physical Israel and the physical earth. Abraham and Israel get a sin free, Satan free earth, like Adam had before he disobeyed God. Many of Israel will be redeemed and changed in a day, and then have 1,000 years with their Messiah Prince. Amil, post mill, and many pre-mill are wrong thinking the church is physical on a physical earth. God never took the physical away from Israel. God put the physical on hold for the church and the fulness of the Gentiles. Current Israel outside of Christ will never be the church in Paradise. Amil just want to rush God and tell Him to get over it, and get it done already. They claim there is no 1,000 years of God on earth, like God promised many times in the OT to Israel, not the church.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

pittsburghjoe, said:
Is the Woman with the twelve stars (Tribes) standing on the moon (Mosaic Law/Moses/Old Covenant)?[/QUOTE\]

We know she's is not a literal woman, she is a sign, or a symbol. (Revelation 1:1) In the inspired prophecies, women at times represent organizations “married” to outstanding personalities. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel was spoken of as a wife of YHWH God. (Jeremiah 3:14) In the Greek Scriptures, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14) The woman John here sees is also married to someone, and she is about to give birth. Who is her husband? Well, later her child is “caught away to God and to his throne.” (Revelation 12:5) So, YHWH God claims the child as his own. So, the woman that John sees is YHWH God symbolic wife.

About eight centuries earlier, YHWH God had addressed this symbolic wife, saying: “All your sons will be persons taught by YHWH” (Isaiah 54:5, 13) Jesus quoted this prophecy and showed that these sons were his faithful followers, who later formed the congregation of anointed Christians. (John 6:44, 45) So members of this congregation, spoken of as God’s sons, are also children of God’s symbolic wife. (Romans 8:14) The apostle Paul adds the final piece of information when he says: “The Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” (Galatians 4:26) The “woman” seen by John, then, is “the Jerusalem above.”

 

[Andreas]

IN THE BEGINNING ...

Rosh Hashanah is New Year's Day on the original biblical calendar. It marks the aniversary of Day One of Creation week, as well as the birthday of Jesus Christ. God commanded Israel to celebrate this day with the blowing of trumpets (Lev. 23:23-25). It is the first day of the first month on the original (agricultural) calendar, and the first day of the seventh month on the Festival calendar.



Rosh Hashanah is what 'TODAY' refers to in Psalm 2, "You are My Son, TODAY I have begotten You." Jesus was the "Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15); He is "The Beginning" (Col. 1:18). He called Himself "The Beginning of the Creation of God" (Rev. 3:14). Jesus said: "for out of God I have emerged" (John 8:42 - Gk.). He was the "Son" (Prov. 30:6) of whom Solomon wrote: "From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world," (Pro 8:23-26). Thus, the six days of creation begin with the begetting of the Son. At the appointed time, the Son "emptied Himself" of His divinity to become fully Man (Phil. 2:5-8), being born of the virgin on Rosh Hashanah, the aniversary of His begetting from His Father "in the beginning."

The book of Revelation provides us with the biblical date of Jesus' birth using astronomy, which falls on Rosh Hashanah, the anniversary of the first day of creation when the Son was brought forth out of God.

Revelation 12:1-5
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
The sun is in Virgo during September to early October. The new moon (which becomes visible just after sunset, and sets only minutes later) marks Rosh Hashanah, the new year. Below is a screenshot from Redshift 7 Astronomy Program showing the positions of the sun and moon in relation to Virgo just after dawn on Rosh Hashanah, just after Jesus' birth.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

i think in Revelation 12 we are seeing satan using worldly man's knowledge against GOD'S Wisdom that is in The Tree of LIFE.

Lady Wisdom from Proverbs.

Rev 12:2
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Pro 1:20-21
Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

Proverbs 8 :: King James Version (KJV)
Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Pro 8:3-4
She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

Pro 9:3
She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

Isaiah 26:17-18 ESV
Like a pregnant woman who writhes and cries out in her pangs when she is near to giving birth, so were we because of you, O Lord; we were pregnant, we writhed, but we have given birth to wind. We have accomplished no deliverance in the earth, and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen.

Rev 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Pro 9:1
Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

1 Samuel 2 :: King James Version (KJV)
He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Was Wisdom fed? Did satan attack the Tree of LIFE with the tree of knowledge? Is the "remnant of her seed" Christianity? It doesn’t make much sense for Israel to be fed and to flee …but maybe it does for The Wisdom of The Tree of LIFE …The HOLY SPIRIT?

Israel/Jacob/Reborn is a child, Rev 12 is showing us The Wisdom of The Tree of LIFE that Spiritual Israel (New Jerusalem | Holy City) runs off of.

Rev 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And then it goes right into the war in Heaven.

Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Is it connected to this?
Dan 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Proverbs 3 :: King James Version (KJV)
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

Rev 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Proverbs 3:18
She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.

It’s extra curious that the Tree of LIFE in Revelation has twelve manner of fruits …and the Woman of Rev 12 has twelve stars.

Rev 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

i think she is standing on the moon ...Mosaic Law/Old Covenant/pillars

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Hmm, that's odd, is this saying the living authentic Jews 2,000 years ago, that were Saved, were the Remnant that converted to Messianic? Why is Rev 12 taking about a "Remnant" if Christianity is only starting out at that point?

Is Jacob's trouble involved? Israel is the seed ...not the Woman.

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved:

weird Romans uses a different source word for Remnant G2640
"remnant, remains"​

Rev 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

remnant (STRONGS G3062):

1. remaining, the rest
   1. the rest of any number or class under consideration
      
      
   2. with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number
      
      
   3. the rest of the things that remain

The surrounding text of Rev 12:17 is talking about The Woman (Lady Wisdom) being attacked with a river (man's knowledge, politics, and maybe even armies). So it makes sense for there to be less Christians after that. It goes into the beast coming out of the sea ...and that's more political attacks and false churches.

The remnant of Rev 12 could be talking about First Fruits?

[1Co 15:20 NASB95]
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

[1Co 15:23 NASB95]
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

[Rev 14:4 NASB95]
These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These [are] the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

 

[Davy]

Genesis 37 is where the first time the description of the symbolic woman of Revelation 12 is given. Joseph's brethren are shown symbolically as the 11 stars, and Joseph's mother and father are shown symbolically as the sun and moon.

So the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12 DOES... represent God's Israel. At first it is about historical Israel prior to Christ, and then about Christ's Church as God's Israel per the last Revelation 12 verse. Thus the WHOLE chapter is relevant to Christ's Church!

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Genesis 37 is where the first time the description of the symbolic woman of Revelation 12 is given. Joseph's brethren are shown symbolically as the 11 stars, and Joseph's mother and father are shown symbolically as the sun and moon.

So the symbolic "woman" of Revelation 12 DOES... represent God's Israel. At first it is about historical Israel prior to Christ, and then about Christ's Church as God's Israel per the last Revelation 12 verse. Thus the WHOLE chapter is relevant to Christ's Church!

A crown of twelve stars doesn't make the Woman wearing it ...Israel. If you read through the thread you would understand Israel is the seed ...not The Woman.

 

[Marty fox]

Is the Woman with the twelve stars (Tribes) standing on the moon (Mosaic Law/Moses/Old Covenant)?

If Jacob/Israel was born of the Woman and then the Reborn Christians (still Jacob) became Children through CHRIST ...then the Woman isn't Israel?


[Rev 12:1 KJV]
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

[Rev 12:2 KJV]
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

[Rev 12:3 KJV]
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.



[Rev 12:4 KJV]
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[Rev 12:5 KJV]
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

[Rev 12:6 KJV]
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.


--------------------------------------

Romans 8:22-23
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Matthew 24:8-9
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

Who does the bible show that she is?

Genesis 37:9-10
9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

The Spirit of The Kingdom of The Body of CHRIST


[Mat 13:37 KJV]
He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

[Mat 13:38 KJV]
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

[Mat 13:43 KJV]
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.