"THE WORDS...ARE SPIRIT" version of understanding scripture.

[Lizbeth]

One example is from one of your books that time is an illusion. god showed it is not, I trust Him over you every day.

May I suggest that you seek clarification of what he means. Does God exist in time? Does His kingdom exist in time (wherein we are supposed to walk)? It's not an easy thing to get our little heads around. I seem to have noticed that God's word sometimes is talking from an earthly point of view and other times from an heavenly point of view, and it needs to be rightly divided from which point of view a particular passage is speaking or referring to.

 

[ScottA]

I shall take your condemnations as a badge of honor. I will let my savior judge between you and me. And once again Irepeat the very first instance. If any of your "higher spiritual meanings" contradict the word of God or alters it, they are demonic.

Good, I am glad that you understand the terms of your "savior!"

Because, as seen here below in post #6, that phrase you keep accusing me of--are your words--not mine. Which you have manifest as your own pet peeve, repeatedly making false accusations as a false witness against me--but more importantly against the "higher" "spiritual" ways of God (Isaiah 55:9, John 6:63). Which is therefore, all on you.

Nice non answer. If your higher spiritual meaning contradicts another's higher spiritual meaning are you right or wrong? How does one determine, what basis do you declare someone else's "higher spiritual meaning" right or wrong?

afoolish example. You are given a higher spiritual meaning that pre marital sex is okay. Another is given a higher spiritual meaning that it is wrong. Who i s right and why?

But since the purpose of this thread was to gain understanding, here are some passages you should look at:

• Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. Colossians 3:2
• For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18
• And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2
• Therefore He says: “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.” Ephesians 5:14

 

[ScottA]

Says you, but you have not proven yopurself to be a man of spiritual integrity that I should listen to. Yes I have accussed you and no you cannot show one lie I have printed. If you list one and say it is a lie, and I dig up your words to show I spoke truth, I will push to have you removed from this forum for false accusations
The Words are from god HImself and given to men. I take it you do not think much of Paul for He held high the Scriptures as what is needed for our growth, maturity and ability to Work Also Jesus who said His Word would not pass away. It appears you have some kinfd of disdain for the Word of God and instead just "listen to the Spirit as you would call it.

And do you hear your own self? The Word of God was inspired by the Holy Spirit but you debase it because of the frailty of men.

Then you debase the word of God inspired by the very Holy Spirit you so highly regard because men disagree.

Once again let me remind all I have told you , though you arrogantly refuse to read it with knowledge:

Any "higher spiritual meaning" that comes from me, you or any one else that contradicts or alters the Word of God as given to men by god HImself is demonic and must be resisted as wel as those who sout out thopse demonic teachings.

So God HImself told you tell me I am in WOE? You need to watch yourself. You are bordring on idolatry, making yourself your own god. God has ot nor will ever tell you the condition of my soul. And I qoute the Apostle Paul which is also true of me:

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Now I have also received a higher spiritual meaning- it says to tell you to be careful you are treading on ground that will crush you.

More accusations.

 

[ScottA]

Let me ask you an honest serious question.

You claimed that you were caught up to the third heaven as Paul was. Since that event, what have you done to spread the love of Jesus. what have you done to advance His kingdom and promote the gospel that saves to people?

Yes, "serious" is exactly what this is.

I have done nothing but that which I was sent to do. None of which is mine, but His who sent me. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says."

I will also ask you a question: If you know the scriptures--what have I actually just said to you?

 

[Ziggy]

A good question to ask regarding every word come down from heaven from the Word, showing "the words are Spirit", is:

Are the scriptures the revelation of Jesus Christ, or are they simply howto words about living in this world? In other words, even if "bread" in the scriptures sometimes seems to be just about bread--is it ever really only about bread, as if the world were not passing away and we should settle in to the ways of this world and make sure we have bread for our bellies?

I know, I know--even Jesus got hungry and ate bread! Ah, but was that the only message? Hardly!

Conditions of the heart of mankind.
Some stony, some fallen, and some on good ground.
I believe the words are spiritual, but there is also a worldly narrative.
It can be taken both ways.
Most things that are written we do see with our eyes and hear with our ears and can understand on a carnal basis.
I used to think the OT was the carnal man earthy, and the NT is the spiritual man.
But even in the OT there are traces of the NT. And vice versa.

We are told to be doers and not hearers only.

They went from house to house breaking bread.
I hear this both ways. Literally going house to house and eating bread.
And Spiritually, They went from house to house sharing the Word of the Lord.

Jhn 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Mat 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Sometimes it's just easier to talk the talk than to actually walk the walk and become what God intended us to be.

Hugs

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The holy Spirit does not lead us into misunderstanding.

You may wish to reflect upon your errant ideology to see where it comes from.
It is also what feeds your manner of speech toward those your ideology disagrees with.

So be it,indeed.

You are right He. The spirit does not lead us into misunderstanding. but if you accept that a "higher spiritual meaning" can contrtadict scripture or alter Scripture, then you are not being led by the Spirit in that.

And what exactly do you think my errant ideology comes from.

I guess you disagreed with Paul when he railed against false doctrine, or peter or even Jesus HImself and many of th eprophets. I do not hate a single sould here. but I hate the lies they have bought into.

MKaybe you should not be so quick to judge without getting facts.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christian cults/sects/false ministries also quote scriptures.....does that mean we are to regard the bible (or their favourite verses) with suspicion? The devil loves to discredit the things of God so that we'll be tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It just depends on what the person means by the words they are using, what specific meanings they are talking about. To me higher spiritual meaning is talking about those meanings (truths, not falsehoods) which the carnal mind can't grasp because they are spiritually discerned. We are to serve in the new way of the SPIRIT, not the old way of the letter, so we need the Holy SPIRIT to illuminate the written word to our mind.....and when He does, we have His mind on the matter, the mind of Christ. And bear in mind that our carnal mind is enmity with God....if are going to be suspicious maybe we should start with being suspicious of our own carnal mind so that we learn not to rely on it for spiritual understanding. Yes, we have the mind of Christ, but are we relying on it/Him or on ourselves and our own mind?

We are to be sober and alert in spirit, and test all things, whether what is being said is of God or not.........but that is not the same thing as being suspicious. A spirit of suspiciousness is of the flesh....it comes from relying on ourselves, not on the Lord.

And people with "higher spiritual meanings" also quote Scripture to introduce subtle alterations and twisting of doctrine. that is the part and parcel of cults.

So if you are suspicious, shouldn't you start with your own carnal mind?

Well I seek His understanding all the time. And Yes I serve with the Spirit, not perfectly but like the billions of followers of Jesus who have gone on before, I strive to put the old man in the grave and keep him there. I am not perffect, neither are you.

But let me ask you a direct question. If you receive a "higher spiritual meaning" that alters Scripture or contradicts SCripture do you accept the written Word or this new spiritual revelation? I am not talking about how Jesus used metaphors and parables or personal applications we can glean from the OT, gospels and Acts but What do you do when a "higher spiritual meaning" alters the basic standard meaning of Scripture and brings a change of doctrine?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And just to say, oh dear, why would I call Paul a liar? Rest assured I do not. But I think you probably assume we have to wait to physically die to see the Lord face to face...? I question that. Didn't Job see Him face to face, and Moses, and Jacob? I take it to mean being one with Him, being as close as one can get to another. Jesus IS the truth (and way and life).....so once we possess Him fully and He us, then we have all that we need. I see truth as flowing like a river, from Him, it's alive, and has varying depths/heights - not something that is carved on stone tablets, a dead letter....stoney heart, right and left ventricles; carnal mind, right and left brain. (It's wonderful how God speaks through His creation.)

And I agree with all that and live in that. But do you accept contradictory teachings from SCripture when they appear to come from "higher spiritual meanings"?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

May I suggest that you seek clarification of what he means. Does God exist in time? Does His kingdom exist in time (wherein we are supposed to walk)? It's not an easy thing to get our little heads around. I seem to have noticed that God's word sometimes is talking from an earthly point of view and other times from an heavenly point of view, and it needs to be rightly divided from which point of view a particular passage is speaking or referring to.

I have asked many times for him to specifically define what He means. but he wraps his words in such subtly, that it appears he promotes accepting false doctrine from "higher spiritual meanings" without directly saying so. In his last series of posts if you bothered to read them, he demeaned Scripture as base, this Paul, the Apostles and Jesus and billions of believers down through the ages did not and would not do!

This is exactly what all cultists do.

 

[ScottA]

Conditions of the heart of mankind.
Some stony, some fallen, and some on good ground.
I believe the words are spiritual, but there is also a worldly narrative.
It can be taken both ways.
Most things that are written we do see with our eyes and hear with our ears and can understand on a carnal basis.
I used to think the OT was the carnal man earthy, and the NT is the spiritual man.
But even in the OT there are traces of the NT. And vice versa.

We are told to be doers and not hearers only.

They went from house to house breaking bread.
I hear this both ways. Literally going house to house and eating bread.
And Spiritually, They went from house to house sharing the Word of the Lord.

Jhn 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Mat 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jhn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Sometimes it's just easier to talk the talk than to actually walk the walk and become what God intended us to be.

Hugs

Great points!

There definitely is indeed both carnal and spiritual--but during these times we are counseled to be "rightly dividing" them. Some say rightly "handle" them--which is fine so long as it does not take away or add or change the meaning. "Divide" rather means "cut straight", while "handling" depends on the type of handling.

But since the topic is the word of God, which can be both carnal as well as spiritual--after Jesus' clarification that the words "are spirit"--he leaves no excuse for our favoring the carnal. On the contrary, the teachings that most apply to these times are rather "Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?" Surely the entire New Testament has brought us to the place knowing which is better "which is greater"--which are we to do--referring to the "dividing" difference between what is carnal and that which is spiritual. And what does it say--"walk carnally?" Not at all--"walk in the spirit!"

“No one can serve two masters."

But I know you know all this--thanks for your great input!

@Ronald Nolette

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Great points!

There definitely is indeed both carnal and spiritual--but during these times we are counseled to be "rightly dividing" them. Some say rightly "handle" them--which is fine so long as it does not take away or add or change the meaning. "Divide" rather means "cut straight", while "handling" depends on the type of handling.

But since the topic is the word of God, which can be both carnal as well as spiritual--after Jesus' clarification that the words "are spirit"--he leaves no excuse for our favoring the carnal. On the contrary, the teachings that most apply to these times are rather "Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?" Surely the entire New Testament has brought us to the place knowing which is better "which is greater"--which are we to do--referring to the "dividing" difference between what is carnal and that which is spiritual. And what does it say--"walk carnally?" Not at all--"walk in the spirit!"

“No one can serve two masters."

But I know you know all this--thanks for your great input!

@Ronald Nolette

The Word of God is not carnal- it is man that approaches it carnally. As Jesus said "My words are spirit and life". Your abasing the Scriptures like this will be your undoing.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

May I suggest that you seek clarification of what he means. Does God exist in time? Does His kingdom exist in time (wherein we are supposed to walk)? It's not an easy thing to get our little heads around. I seem to have noticed that God's word sometimes is talking from an earthly point of view and other times from an heavenly point of view, and it needs to be rightly divided from which point of view a particular passage is speaking or referring to.

May I ask you a sincere and honest question? when you get one of these "higher spiritual meanings" or whatever term you would use, how do you validate that it is from god or not? what is the measure and standard you use to insure what you received is truly from god?

 

[ScottA]

The spirit does not lead us into misunderstanding. but if you accept that a "higher spiritual meaning" can contrtadict scripture or alter Scripture, then you are not being led by the Spirit in that.

This obsession with the above statement you keep making is the crux of your great folly here.

First you put "higher spiritual meaning" in quotations--quoting only yourself, then you go about making accusations based on your own phrase. Based on that alone we all have good reason to dismiss anything and perhaps everything you say.

But realistically, the phrase is not actually incorrect, as God is "higher", "spiritual" and his word has "meaning" not always understood; and it is only given "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little", which is the cause of much of it needing to be explained--not as something "new" (as you say)--but as an established biblical pattern. Hence this thread.

 

[ScottA]

The Word of God is not carnal- it is man that approaches it carnally. As Jesus said "My words are spirit and life". Your abasing the Scriptures like this will be your undoing.

We are 130+ posts in...and NO, it is you who has been abasing the scriptures referring to them as only carnal. From your very first post on this thread--and there are many--that has been a big part...oh, and "contradicting"...which you have only accused and name-dropped about without being specific.

 

[Ziggy]

May I ask you a sincere and honest question? when you get one of these "higher spiritual meanings" or whatever term you would use, how do you validate that it is from god or not? what is the measure and standard you use to insure what you received is truly from god?

It's like one of those aha moments.
I was pruning a rose bush one day in my yard. It had become so twisted and smothered with overgrown vines and leaves.
And all these verses started coming to mind concerning how God cleans up our lives, rooting out those things which keep us bound and dying.
So I would answer your question in this manner,
If when you receive a higher spiritual meaning and it agrees with the word of Lord,
It builds up and not tares down, and it moves your understanding towards a more perfect way.
Then that would be my standard that that very higher spiritual meaning comes from God.

I know you wasn't asking me, but I felt inclined to answer for myself.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

Eph 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Hugs

 

[shepherdsword]

Most look to the written word of God as being literary (language-based), and that it is. But more importantly--it's not--but is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.​

As "language"--the words are "confused" by God: Genesis 11:7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”​

​

That is "ALL" language: Genesis 11:9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.​

Most commonly, however, those who study the word of God, study with the idea that the words are literary and the correct understanding of the words is based on language and culture during the time and place they were written, as being the best interpretation, even perfect and exact. From which comes the term: exegesis.

ex·e·ge·sis​

/ˌeksəˈjēsəs/​

​

noun​

noun: exegesis; plural noun: exegeses​

1. critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.

...Which is mostly good--to a point. In fact, I recommend it--at least as a start just after simply reading the scriptures. My wife and I are actually currently participating a group study--although I myself have been doing that sort of study for years--and it's good. The problem is, it should be introduced as elementary, and yet it is not. Instead, it is considered the way of digging deeper into the meaning of scripture--the ultimate, and the way of seminaries and the teachings of men.

These methods are mostly "Tree of Knowledge" stuff

Again--that is all mostly good. But where that leaves us is back in that time--two or more thousand years ago. Two thousand minimum. Which was indeed a great time in human history--but these times were to be "greater" (John 14:12). Throughout history God has been advancing the knowledge of men, and where Jesus and the apostles left off two thousand years ago with much of scripture, only ended with an introduction to the words being spirit (as Jesus said)

Da 12:4
"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

We see the seals of the book broken by Jesus Christ because only He is worthy:

Rv 5:4-5
So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

. And Paul--oh my gosh, Paul--he even said he was determined to "press on" (Philippians 3:12) "leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits" (Hebrews 6:1-3). Are you getting this? He--even then considered those seemingly language and culture-based teachings of Christ to be "elementary."

The key thing is "IF God permits. I pray daily that God permits me to move on as I fellowship with His Spirit in the Word. Sometimes I get it and other times I am dull of hearing because of the hardness of my heart. A problem many of His disciples had:

Mk 16:14
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Lord, have mercy on me!

So, what--we should forever go back and immerse ourselves in "confusion" after picking up where they left off--not pressing on into that "greater" spiritual calling and instruction...as if the Spirit were not greater than what we were told was elementary?

How do we press on into that greater spiritual understanding? Follow the instruction they gave us. Actually press on!

1. Understand that the words of scripture (all language) has been confused.
2. Understand rather that the words are spirit and must be spiritually discerned.
3. Understand that only some people, by the gifts of the Spirit, are given to knowledge and interpretation--yes, among many who are false.
4. Understand that if we hinder the Spirit, we will answer to God for doing so.
5. Test every spirit--not by men's understanding, but by the Spirit. Which means being silent in church just as the bride of Christ (men and women alike) are instructed, that only the Spirit is heard.
6. Build on that--the means by which Jesus said He would build His church--with only that which comes from our Father in heaven, in spirit (as Jesus explained was how Peter knew He was the Christ).
7. "He who has an ear let him hear."

I think God will permit us to go on if we humble ourselves and admit our shortcomings. We need our heart to be circumcised and have it's fallow ground prepared by removing the cares of this world.

Jer 4:3-4
"Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns. ( the cares of this world)
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, ( cultivate a sensitivity to spiritual things
And take away the foreskins of your hearts, (expose your most sensitive heart areas and secret sins)

 

[Gray_Joy]

Yes I am. Are you? I accept god at His word and not seek some hidden, deeper or spiritual meanings to clear simple statements He inspired.

Is that why you resort to the lower case g?

 

[Lizbeth]

And people with "higher spiritual meanings" also quote Scripture to introduce subtle alterations and twisting of doctrine. that is the part and parcel of cults.

So if you are suspicious, shouldn't you start with your own carnal mind?

Well I seek His understanding all the time. And Yes I serve with the Spirit, not perfectly but like the billions of followers of Jesus who have gone on before, I strive to put the old man in the grave and keep him there. I am not perffect, neither are you.

But let me ask you a direct question. If you receive a "higher spiritual meaning" that alters Scripture or contradicts SCripture do you accept the written Word or this new spiritual revelation? I am not talking about how Jesus used metaphors and parables or personal applications we can glean from the OT, gospels and Acts but What do you do when a "higher spiritual meaning" alters the basic standard meaning of Scripture and brings a change of doctrine?

With me, it is scripture that the Lord opens to my understanding. There has never been any contradiction with fundamental doctrine of Christ and Him crucified etc. However He has changed my understanding of certain things........for example regarding the Lord's coming and the "thousand year reign"......Jesus said His coming would not be such that one can say lo here He is or there, and He similarly said that His kingdom is not of this world that we may say lo here it is, or there, but is within us. Now that contradicts conventional teaching, but not scripture....it IS what scripture says, but I needed the Lord to take my blinders off and illuminate it so that I could SEE it. There are things that are plain as plain can be but we are blind to it.....veil of flesh/carnal mind can't perceive truth, especially when we have already imbibed false teachings.

May I ask you a sincere and honest question? when you get one of these "higher spiritual meanings" or whatever term you would use, how do you validate that it is from god or not? what is the measure and standard you use to insure what you received is truly from god?

The whole counsel of God.......it needs to agree with all of scripture. Even just in reading scripture, our understanding of any passage needs to agree with the rest of scripture, otherwise our understanding of the passage must be off. Also, knowing God and His character........He wouldn't do/say anything that is not in keeping with His character. Discernment is a learning and growing thing. The better we know and understand scripture and the better we know the Lord, the better our discernment will be. There is another way too if we are not sure about anything..........simply ask the Lord. He tells us if any lack wisdom to ask Him and He will give it without upbraiding. He has been true to His word and helped me out many times.

 

[ScottA]

These methods are mostly "Tree of Knowledge" stuff

Da 12:4
"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

We see the seals of the book broken by Jesus Christ because only He is worthy:

Rv 5:4-5
So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."


The key thing is "IF God permits. I pray daily that God permits me to move on as I fellowship with His Spirit in the Word. Sometimes I get it and other times I am dull of hearing because of the hardness of my heart. A problem many of His disciples had:

Mk 16:14
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Lord, have mercy on me!



I think God will permit us to go on if we humble ourselves and admit our shortcomings. We need our heart to be circumcised and have it's fallow ground prepared by removing the cares of this world.

Jer 4:3-4
"Break up your fallow ground,
And do not sow among thorns. ( the cares of this world)
Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, ( cultivate a sensitivity to spiritual things
And take away the foreskins of your hearts, (expose your most sensitive heart areas and secret sins)

We have every reason and should be assured that pressing on into spiritual territory, although new and unknown at first, was actually foretold and plotted out for us, that we should rightly meet with expectation. Sadly, some are against even what is written.

Nonetheless, the pressing on of many for the past two thousand years was to come by the Holy Spirit in the way he gave Peter the knowledge of who Christ was (the very means by which Christ was to build his Church), and would be "finished" with the fulfillment of Daniel's and the apostle John's sealed prophecies, as ''all truth" as God had also "declared to his servants the prophets." Every Christian should be on the edge of their seat!

Still we seem to be struggling at the gate, with most happy to settle for the joy of the Lord in their otherwise worldly life. Sad indeed.