The WRATH of God poured out on Christ … where?

[Charlie24]

Where does the Law demand it?

From what I read, “the wages of sin is death” … so all the Law demanded was death (not torture).
The Priest did not inflict unnecessary pain on the lamb.
Was God angry at the Passover lamb?

Christ died a horrible death! If He were to die for the most vilest sins know to man, He would have to die the most vilest death know to man. That death was the Roman crucifixion.

God's Law demanded that the vilest crimes had a special punishment, to be hung on a tree, accursed from God.

It was already determined before the foundation of the world that Christ would hang on a tree (cross) in the vilest form, for the vilest sins.

 

[Enoch111]

(if you want to read a little more from the source: 7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison )

We do not need theologians' "theories" about the sacrifice of Christ. We just need to accept all the relevant Scriptures as given. The wrath of God fell upon the holy soul of Christ for the sins of the whole world. And that is the only way that He could become the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

In addition to that Christ suffered extreme agonies of body, soul, and spirit, which no man can know, nor describe. Even the evangelists only recorded the historical facts of the crucifixion, but the Holy Spirit did not give them the inner details.

 

[atpollard]

Christ died a horrible death! If He were to die for the most vilest sins know to man, He would have to die the most vilest death know to man. That death was the Roman crucifixion.

God's Law demanded that the vilest crimes had a special punishment, to be hung on a tree, accursed from God.

It was already determined before the foundation of the world that Christ would hang on a tree (cross) in the vilest form, for the vilest sins.

That’s a lot of opinions, but I have serious questions about whether you can produce actual scripture to back them up.

1. “If He were to die for the most vilest sins know to man, He would have to die the most vilest death know to man.” … what scripture (or even human law) agrees with this? The Law tends to top out at some crimes are so terrible that they require the “death penalty”, but I am unfamiliar with any law suggesting that the torture of the execution should be on a sliding scale based on how terrible the crime was.
   
2. “God's Law demanded that the vilest crimes had a special punishment, to be hung on a tree” … Chapter and Verse that requires hanging someone from a tree, please. Judas hung from a tree, cursed. Jesus was like the Bronze Serpent on a pole … sin judged that any who looked to Him in faith would live.

 

[atpollard]

The wrath of God fell upon the holy soul of Christ

Verse please.
(Otherwise, you DO need those theologians).

 

[atpollard]

In addition to that Christ suffered extreme agonies of body, soul, and spirit, which no man can know, nor describe. Even the evangelists only recorded the historical facts of the crucifixion, but the Holy Spirit did not give them the inner details.

Isn’t this an “argument from silence”?
You are claiming what we DON’T KNOW as proof.

 

[Charlie24]

That’s a lot of opinions, but I have serious questions about whether you can produce actual scripture to back them up.

1. “If He were to die for the most vilest sins know to man, He would have to die the most vilest death know to man.” … what scripture (or even human law) agrees with this? The Law tends to top out at some crimes are so terrible that they require the “death penalty”, but I am unfamiliar with any law suggesting that the torture of the execution should be on a sliding scale based on how terrible the crime was.
   
2. “God's Law demanded that the vilest crimes had a special punishment, to be hung on a tree” … Chapter and Verse that requires hanging someone from a tree, please. Judas hung from a tree, cursed. Jesus was like the Bronze Serpent on a pole … sin judged that any who looked to Him in faith would live.

Deut. 21:22-23

"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."

 

[quietthinker]

WRATH: strong vengeful anger (Merriam-Webster)

There is a good conversation to be had on the subject of “Jesus and the wrath of God”.
WRATH implies punishment inflicted in anger.

Where is the scripture verse that ever actually says that God (the Father) was EVER angrily punishing Jesus in our place?

I would never suggest that Jesus did not suffer the punishment of God for the sins of men, since there are too many verses that clearly state that.

Nor would I EVER suggest that God will not pour out His wrath on those that reject the salvation offered in Jesus Christ (typically mentioned as part of a final judgement to come).

However, God has also said "The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer [the punishment] for the father's guilt, nor will a father suffer [the punishment] for the son's guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” - Ezekiel 18:20 [NASB20]

Is that not exactly what we claim that God has done when we say that the WRATH of the Father (God) fell on Jesus … angrily punished the innocent for the sin of the guilty?

I would prefer to see a verse that EXPLICITLY supported that claim.
(Now that is a conversation worth having.)

@atpollard ....check this one out mate.
61 The Wrath of God Part 1

 

[Davy]

That’s pretty strong … definitely harshing my mellow.

There is a faction that argues that God the Father is INCAPABLE of forgiving anyone of anything until and unless God has first gotten His “pound of flesh”. Is that really the God revealed in scripture? Imagine for a moment if men were called to follow that example … imagine if Jesus commanded us to “turn the other cheek … only after we had kicked the dog … because OUR WRATH had to be paid before forgiveness could be possible”.

My issues with “Penal Substitution” and the WRATH OF GOD POURED OUT ON CHRIST is that it teaches exactly that message … but generally just ASSUMES that scripture teaches it without even bothering to attempt to prove it with scripture.

• I have said and would say NOTHING against the DIVINITY of Christ … I am a Trinitarian.
  
• I have said and would say NOTHING against the PURITY of His sacrifice on the Cross … I am a blood bought Christian.

I just want to get something as important as WHY JESUS DIED biblically correct in all of the details … that requires clear scripture rather than just many people holding an opinion.

I don't recognize such ideas as being started with 'you', but with those you are listening to. That's who would put such ideas as your OP in your head. But an even greater problem in your case would be, you not recognizing it. So is there a need for rebuke to try and get you back on track in God's Word? I say yes.

 

[Wynona]

WRATH: strong vengeful anger (Merriam-Webster)

There is a good conversation to be had on the subject of “Jesus and the wrath of God”.
WRATH implies punishment inflicted in anger.

Where is the scripture verse that ever actually says that God (the Father) was EVER angrily punishing Jesus in our place?

I would never suggest that Jesus did not suffer the punishment of God for the sins of men, since there are too many verses that clearly state that.

Nor would I EVER suggest that God will not pour out His wrath on those that reject the salvation offered in Jesus Christ (typically mentioned as part of a final judgement to come).

However, God has also said "The person who sins will die. A son will not suffer [the punishment] for the father's guilt, nor will a father suffer [the punishment] for the son's guilt; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” - Ezekiel 18:20 [NASB20]

Is that not exactly what we claim that God has done when we say that the WRATH of the Father (God) fell on Jesus … angrily punished the innocent for the sin of the guilty?

I would prefer to see a verse that EXPLICITLY supported that claim.
(Now that is a conversation worth having.)

You know what? I can't really find where the wrath of God is poured out on Jesus. On first glance, it doesn't seem supported in Scripture.

I will keep looking but the whole wrath of god poured out on Jesus might be another churchism. Thats what I call things commonly said and taught that arent in the Bible.

 

[ChristisGod]

You know what? I can't really find where the wrath of God is poured out on Jesus. On first glance, it doesn't seem supported in Scripture.

I will keep looking but the whole wrath of god poured out on Jesus might be another churchism. Thats what I call things commonly said and taught that arent in the Bible.

Not once is Gods wrath ever poured out on Jesus in the bible and its never poured out on the Righteous but always upon the wicked who reject God. If you get the time please read my posts on the first page of this thread where I have an in depth study on the topic filled with scripture.

 

[atpollard]

Deut. 21:22-23

"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."

Sort of …

Deuteronomy 21:

18 “If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother,and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obeyus, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.​

22 “If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.​

Verses 18-21 are an example of a Law of God that requires someone to be put to death … the explicit manner of execution is specified as stoning (not hanging).

Verses 22-23 place restrictions on MEN choosing to put someone to death by hanging. Verse 22 specifically states “and you hang him on a tree” (a choice of men, not a command of God). Verse 23 prohibits the corpse from hanging on the tree all night “so that you do not defile your land”. This seems more about protecting the people doing the hanging.

This is not a Law of God that requires a hanging.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard ....check this one out mate.
61 The Wrath of God Part 1

Great discussion of God’s wrath … but once again, God’s wrath on Christ must be inferred rather than exegeted from some explicit verse that makes that claim.

 

[atpollard]

I don't recognize such ideas as being started with 'you', but with those you are listening to. That's who would put such ideas as your OP in your head. But an even greater problem in your case would be, you not recognizing it. So is there a need for rebuke to try and get you back on track in God's Word? I say yes.

… and yet you offer nothing but a “Taint So” to correct me.
Would it not have been more effective to just provide the verse that teaches God’s wrath poured on Christ?

 

[Charlie24]

Sort of …

Deuteronomy 21:

18 “If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother,and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obeyus, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.​

22 “If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.​

Verses 18-21 are an example of a Law of God that requires someone to be put to death … the explicit manner of execution is specified as stoning (not hanging).

Verses 22-23 place restrictions on MEN choosing to put someone to death by hanging. Verse 22 specifically states “and you hang him on a tree” (a choice of men, not a command of God). Verse 23 prohibits the corpse from hanging on the tree all night “so that you do not defile your land”. This seems more about protecting the people doing the hanging.

This is not a Law of God that requires a hanging.

The concept is that Christ suffered the curse of the Law as our substitute. Everyone has violated the Law of God in one way or another, the penalty for that is death, that is the curse of the Law. Christ took that punishment on the Cross for us.

Not all crimes punishable by death were required to be hung on a tree. Only the most vilest of crimes, this was a reminder to all this is what will happen to you. Remember this is under the Law of Moses.

Christ was hung on a tree, representing the most vilest of crimes to all. You won't find this in scripture. It is a point made by many theologians that this was necessary. The idea is that for Christ to pay the price for the most vilest sins of man, He must suffer the same equal punishment as those who committed these crimes.

Usually, as you stated, these criminals were stoned to death in the beginning and then hung on a tree, later we see they were thrust through with a sword or spear and then hung on a tree. There are several examples throughout the OT where they were killed in some manner and then hung on a tree.

Christ could not be killed by man, He was God in the flesh and could not die from the hands of man. Christ said, "no one takes it from me, I lay it down of my own will." In other words, for Christ to die as a man, he would have to lay down His life freely, and He did.

This is why Christ died on the Cross, not from stoning, being thrust through with a spear from man, He had to lay His life down freely in the shame of the Cross as our substitute.

 

[Charlie24]

The concept is that Christ suffered the curse of the Law as our substitute. Everyone has violated the Law of God in one way or another, the penalty for that is death, that is the curse of the Law. Christ took that punishment on the Cross for us.

Not all crimes punishable by death were required to be hung on a tree. Only the most vilest of crimes, this was a reminder to all this is what will happen to you. Remember this is under the Law of Moses.

Christ was hung on a tree, representing the most vilest of crimes to all. You won't find this in scripture. It is a point made by many theologians that this was necessary. The idea is that for Christ to pay the price for the most vilest sins of man, He must suffer the same equal punishment as those who committed these crimes.

Usually, as you stated, these criminals were stoned to death in the beginning and then hung on a tree, later we see they were thrust through with a sword or spear and then hung on a tree. There are several examples throughout the OT where they were killed in some manner and then hung on a tree.

Christ could not be killed by man, He was God in the flesh and could not die from the hands of man. Christ said, "no one takes it from me, I lay it down of my own will." In other words, for Christ to die as a man, he would have to lay down His life freely, and He did.

This is why Christ died on the Cross, not from stoning, being thrust through with a spear from man, He had to lay His life down freely in the shame of the Cross as our substitute.

Many believe that Christ died from the injuries and suffering He endured, He did not!

Christ could have stayed on that Cross forever if He so desired, or He could have come off that Cross, thank God He didn't.

Christ could not be killed of man, the only way He could die was to will that death for Himself!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

It is correct that while Jesus prayed in Gethsemane, just before his betrayal, and prayed in great agony, it was bc he was to fulfill the Fathers will to be THE FINAL SACRAFICE for the sins of all mankind.

He prayed in such agony that his sweat became as great drops of blood. This account is in all 4 gospels. As has been stated, he being in sinless perfection was still a man and was touched by our infirminities and felt the impending distress at having to die for the sins of the whole world and throughout time.

Can you just imagine every sin no matter how horrible or disdainful he was taking on his own to the cross bc of such great love from God. Wow ,how this should humble us for WE truly are unworthy !

The Father sent an angel to comfort him in the garden for his love for his Son was beyond our comprehension.

Imagine,even though Jesus knew the Father could NOT bear the stench of sin on his Son and therefore turned his back to Jesus, this hurt the human in the Lord. If we could see how our sins rip at the heart of God,WOULD WE STRIVE TO OVERCOME BETTER?

It is true as the word says the wrath of God is on the evil,unbelieving, disobedient children whom refuse him. Yet that wrath is STILL
tempered with grace and love at this time for our Father wants NONE to perish. HOW UNGRACIOUS WE ARE THAT WE CRY FOR THE DEATH OF THOSE WHOM WE THINK HAVE COMMITED WORSE SINS THAN OURSELVES!

All sin seperates from God and if ppl refuse they will surely face the wrath of God just as he has said,JESUS IS OUR ONLY ESCAPE CLAUSE. He was offered once and now having fulfilled the Fathers will sat down at his right hand.
AMEN,MAY GOD HAVE MERCY!

 

[ChristisGod]

It is correct that while Jesus prayed in Gethsemane, just before his betrayal, and prayed in great agony, it was bc he was to fulfill the Fathers will to be THE FINAL SACRAFICE for the sins of all mankind.

He prayed in such agony that his sweat became as great drops of blood. This account is in all 4 gospels. As has been stated, he being in sinless perfection was still a man and was touched by our infirminities and felt the impending distress at having to die for the sins of the whole world and throughout time.

Can you just imagine every sin no matter how horrible or disdainful he was taking on his own to the cross bc of such great love from God. Wow ,how this should humble us for WE truly are unworthy !

The Father sent an angel to comfort him in the garden for his love for his Son was beyond our comprehension.

Imagine,even though Jesus knew the Father could NOT bear the stench of sin on his Son and therefore turned his back to Jesus, this hurt the human in the Lord. If we could see how our sins rip at the heart of God,WOULD WE STRIVE TO OVERCOME BETTER?

It is true as the word says the wrath of God is on the evil,unbelieving, disobedient children whom refuse him. Yet that wrath is STILL
tempered with grace and love at this time for our Father wants NONE to perish. HOW UNGRACIOUS WE ARE THAT WE CRY FOR THE DEATH OF THOSE WHOM WE THINK HAVE COMMITED WORSE SINS THAN OURSELVES!

All sin seperates from God and if ppl refuse they will surely face the wrath of God just as he has said,JESUS IS OUR ONLY ESCAPE CLAUSE. He was offered once and now having fulfilled the Fathers will sat down at his right hand.
AMEN,MAY GOD HAVE MERCY!

Nowhere does scripture say the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross . That is mans made up doctrine .

See the first page in this thread where I go into great detail on this topic .

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Nowhere does scripture say the Father turned His back on the Son at the cross . That is mans made up doctrine .

See the first page in this thread where I go into great detail on this topic .

I don't need to read your details.
The word says this,
Mk.15:34 ( Cxt)
" And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani ? [ questioning God ]which is ,My God,my God why hast thou forsaken me ?"
See also Psalm22:1 David prophesying.

Check yourself, don't bother trying to get the splinter out of my eye, rather worry about the log you have in yours.
I answer to no man!

 

[ChristisGod]

I don't need to read your details.
The word says this,
Mk.15:34 ( Cxt)
" And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani ? [ questioning God ]which is ,My God,my God why hast thou forsaken me ?"
See also Psalm22:1 David prophesying.

Check yourself, don't bother trying to get the splinter out of my eye, rather worry about the log you have in yours.
I answer to no man!

Like I said the Father did not turn His back on the Son. It’s an urban legend .

Believe the scriptures below which contradicts your false view.

Psalm 22:24
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


next

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Like I said the Father did not turn His back on the Son. It’s an urban legend .

Believe the scriptures below which contradicts your false view.

Psalm 22:24
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


next

You do you and I'll follow the word.
Seeing as it does not affect my Salvation, for him having surrendered to the cross as the Fathers will for all mankind's sins, this idea cannot diminish my gift,the word nor my faith.
Tootles