The Wrath of God - How is it love?

[Aunty Jane]

Let me take that post apart a bit, since it is all over the place….clarity is important because when things are run together like this the truth can be lost.

Genesis 1:1 KJV; In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

“The beginning”….a very good place to start (apologies to Julie Andrews) So what is this the “beginning” of?
Material Creation, but not of creation itself, since God and his master workman had an audience.

Job 38:4-7….ESV…God asked Job….
”Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

“All the sons of God shouted for joy” at seeing material creation take shape. So how long were these sons of God in existence before “God created the heavens and the earth”? The Bible doesn’t say, but the one “through” whom creation came was there….at the beginning of all creation.
It is said of him…..
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Col 1:15-16 ESV)

This is called agency….God working through a second party.

John 1:2 also confirms this….
“All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

God was at first alone, perfectly self contained, without needing anything or anyone. But at some point in his eternal existence, he decided to become a Father, to share life and love with other intelligent beings……and all the things God was, would be magnified in his sharing of life with “sons”….myriads of them.

One son alone was his “firstborn” as Paul states in Colossians 1 above. So creation began with his “firstborn” son who has been “with” his Father from “the beginning”. He is “only begotten” because his Father produced him as it says in Prov 8:22-23, 30-31…

“The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago. From eternity I have been fashioned, from the beginning, from before the world existed. . . . . .then I was beside him as a master craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, rejoicing before him at all times, rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth,and delighting in its people.” (NET)

The son was then “the beginning of his works”..…”fashioned before the world existed.”
“The beginning of creation” (Rev 3:14)

Through Faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Gobbledegook. What is that even supposed to mean?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Read in Greek, those words do not say what has been translated into English.
If the divine name had still been in use, it would have read…
”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YAHWEH , and the Word was divine.

And God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”. So God created Man in his own image, in the image of God created him; male and female created he them. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the Garden thou may freely eat; but of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely die.

And how many people believe that that this is what really happened ? That Adam and his wife ate from the TKGE and as a result, they actually died?
Belief in an immortal soul replaced belief in what God told Adam’s descendants….that the only way to live again is by resurrection? That is a return or restoration of life…not a continuation of it immediately after death, to depart to either heaven or hell? No such scenario exists in Scripture.

“Hell” is mankind’s common grave, and all the dead are resurrected from the same place, (John 5:28-29) because all the dead are unconscious, unaware of anything that goes on after they die. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, a tree to be desired to make them wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also to her husband with her; and he ate it. At once they saw what they had done, and they realized they were naked. Then they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves. ~ For the wages of Sin is Death…

Yes, the sin of disobedience carried the death penalty…..there was no other…no heaven of bliss or hell of torment….that idea came from Greek paganism. It is believed by all false religions.

Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him and he began to teach them. He said: "You’ve heard the Commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.' but I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus went beyond the sin, to what motivates it in the first place.…this gave his audience clear indication that the steps leading to sin, when recognized, could be averted. This same principle applied to all sin…..recognizing the steps that lead to the action can help the sinners to avoid committing it. (James 1:13-15) Wonderful advice!

The wages of Sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal Life! ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life.

Again meshing scripture….but yes, God loved the world of humanity so much that he sent his son to die for us….his “firstborn”…..the only one he could entrust with this difficult mission. And, only those who exercise faith in his sacrifice will benefit from it. Those who fail to put faith in the ransom sacrifice of God’s son will “perish” (apollymi) which means….

“to destroy

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin”

That means that they will no longer exist.…they have lost their right to life.

The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory;

Finish the quote….
”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“

He was a glorious spirit before his human birth…the unique Son of the Father because he alone is the first and only direct creation of his Father. The rest of creation came through the Son.

And John stated just a few verses later……
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

“No one has seen God at any time”?…….how many people saw Jesus?……and God cannot be “begotten”….so how are we to understand this difficult verse? It’s only difficult for trinitarians.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. For by Grace you are Saved through Faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by Works so that no one can boast.

Yet “faith without works is dead”…..faith and works are both necessary. (James 2:18) Does the Bible contradict itself? Or is human misinterpretation the problem?

Scripture alone cannot be understood without explanation…..something Jesus and his apostles did regularly. (Luke 24:27; Acts 17:2-3)

 

[quietthinker]

Let me take that post apart a bit, since it is all over the place….clarity is important because when things are run together like this the truth can be lost.


“The beginning”….a very good place to start (apologies to Julie Andrews) So what is this the “beginning” of?
Material Creation, but not of creation itself, since God and his master workman had an audience.

Job 38:4-7….ESV…God asked Job….
”Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

“All the sons of God shouted for joy” at seeing material creation take shape. So how long were these sons of God in existence before “God created the heavens and the earth”? The Bible doesn’t say, but the one “through” whom creation came was there….at the beginning of all creation.
It is said of him…..
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Col 1:15-16 ESV)

This is called agency….God working through a second party.

John 1:2 also confirms this….
“All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

God was at first alone, perfectly self contained, without needing anything or anyone. But at some point in his eternal existence, he decided to become a Father, to share life and love with other intelligent beings……and all the things God was, would be magnified in his sharing of life with “sons”….myriads of them.

One son alone was his “firstborn” as Paul states in Colossians 1 above. So creation began with his “firstborn” son who has been “with” his Father from “the beginning”. He is “only begotten” because his Father produced him as it says in Prov 8:22-23, 30-31…

“The Lord created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago. From eternity I have been fashioned, from the beginning, from before the world existed. . . . . .then I was beside him as a master craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, rejoicing before him at all times, rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth,and delighting in its people.” (NET)

The son was then “the beginning of his works”..…”fashioned before the world existed.”
“The beginning of creation” (Rev 3:14)


Gobbledegook. What is that even supposed to mean?

Read in Greek, those words do not say what has been translated into English.
If the divine name had still been in use, it would have read…
”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with YAHWEH , and the Word was divine.

And how many people believe that that this is what really happened ? That Adam and his wife ate from the TKGE and as a result, they actually died?
Belief in an immortal soul replaced belief in what God told Adam’s descendants….that the only way to live again is by resurrection? That is a return or restoration of life…not a continuation of it immediately after death, to depart to either heaven or hell? No such scenario exists in Scripture.

“Hell” is mankind’s common grave, and all the dead are resurrected from the same place, (John 5:28-29) because all the dead are unconscious, unaware of anything that goes on after they die. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Yes, the sin of disobedience carried the death penalty…..there was no other…no heaven of bliss or hell of torment….that idea came from Greek paganism. It is believed by all false religions.

Jesus went beyond the sin, to what motivates it in the first place.…this gave his audience clear indication that the steps leading to sin, when recognized, could be averted. This same principle applied to all sin…..recognizing the steps that lead to the action can help the sinners to avoid committing it. (James 1:13-15) Wonderful advice!

Again meshing scripture….but yes, God loved the world of humanity so much that he sent his son to die for us….his “firstborn”…..the only one he could entrust with this difficult mission. And, only those who exercise faith in his sacrifice will benefit from it. Those who fail to put faith in the ransom sacrifice of God’s son will “perish” (apollymi) which means….

“to destroy

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin”

That means that they will no longer exist.…they have lost their right to life.

Finish the quote….
”And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.“

He was a glorious spirit before his human birth…the unique Son of the Father because he alone is the first and only direct creation of his Father. The rest of creation came through the Son.

And John stated just a few verses later……
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”

“No one has seen God at any time”?…….how many people saw Jesus?……and God cannot be “begotten”….so how are we to understand this difficult verse? It’s only difficult for trinitarians.


Yet “faith without works is dead”…..faith and works are both necessary. (James 2:18) Does the Bible contradict itself? Or is human misinterpretation the problem?

Scripture alone cannot be understood without explanation…..something Jesus and his apostles did regularly. (Luke 24:27; Acts 17:2-3)

not another thesis!