There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[Davy]

Could it be, that WE ourselves, who are of faith, ARE God's NEW earth, and Jesus Himself is NOW our New Heaven. That all depends on how God thinks, and NOT US.

That is outrageous speculation, and is not an idea written anywhere in God's Word. It is more aligned with Esoteric Occultism of the pagans.

This earth we dwell on is forever. And the meek shall inherit it, as written. Those in Christ's future Kingdom on earth will build houses and plant vineyards upon this earth.

 

[Earburner]

That is outrageous speculation, and is not an idea written anywhere in God's Word. It is more aligned with Esoteric Occultism of the pagans.

This earth we dwell on is forever. And the meek shall inherit it, as written. Those in Christ's future Kingdom on earth will build houses and plant vineyards upon this earth.

As you will see it's not anything of Esoteric Occultism. But it is diametrically opposed to those who follow/copy ONLY a Historical Jesus, and not that which is spiritual.
KJV 1 Cor. 2
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, NOT in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual THINGS with spiritual.

Where has God the Father always desired to live forever? In a temple building made by man? Or in the temple that He has created, the temple of his Son's physical flesh, which is now Immortal, as well as always Eternal Spirit?
Heb. 10
[5] Wherefore when he [Jesus] cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Soon after the mortal death of Christ, who was a Spirit prior to being made flesh, He continued His Eternal Oneness with the Father, except NOW he was forever part of man.

Q. After His resurrection, what did Jesus inherit, that was made to be Immortal after 3 days?
A. The temple of his [Earthen] body!!
Thomas, and all the disciples "handled Him", visibly seeing Him, and eating with Him, thus revealing that He was neither flesh ONLY, but Spirit also.

But...how could He be "not a Spirit", and still be the First Immortal man/God, born from the DEAD??
The answer is, He really is both Immortal Flesh and Spirit, and is very capable of becoming either/or, at will.

Saul (Paul) met Him on the road to Damascus, and was blinded by His Presence, yet Paul knew who He was, while having conversation with Him.

What do you percieve, by the Holy Spirit, when you read 2 Cor. 4 (take your time)-
[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath [Himself] shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
[7] But we have this treasure [God Himself] in earthen vessels [our earthen bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Will you not, IN ONE DAY, be transformed/changed into His likeness, to be WHERE HE IS??

Do not allow yourself to be corrupted by any false narratives, that suggest otherwise.
God HAS BEEN MAKING a NEW Earth all along, ever since He made The/Our NEW Heaven, Heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all [who are of faith in Jesus].

Edit:
Yes, "the meek shall inherit the earth".
So, my question is: WHAT did Jesus inherit, that was primal for His existence, in order to be seated at the Right hand of God, as well as FOR us, of whom shall NEVER see God's Face at anytime, but rather in [through] the Face of Jesus [ONLY]. 2 Cor. 4:6.

Jesus, who is, and always has been the 2nd Person of the God head, is now not ONLY of Holy Spirit, but now He is also Eternally IMMORTAL, with Holy Spirit.

 John.6
[46] Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
John.14
[9] Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Edit:
So now tell me, what is there here, on this planet earth now, to save and protect? Or for that matter, for another 1000 fictitious years of remodeling and makeover?

If one would open their eyes in the Holy Spirit, isn't THAT EXACTLY what satan is attempting to do now, for his ONLY HOME?

When Jesus returns from Heaven, in flaming fire, taking vengeance, you don't think that satan won't marshall all the world's armaments AGAINST THAT DAY?
That would be, and is Armageddon!!

Now think on this, of how Jesus offered no resistance whatsoever, but... there are Christians today.... acting militant??
John 18
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom NOT from hence [HERE].

 

[JLB]

It very specifically says that the six things listed had to be done within the 70 weeks, so what do you mean it "does not happen within the 70 week timeframe"?

Messiah being “cut off” crucified (33 AD) and the city and sanctuary destroyed
(70 AD), occurred outside of the 70 weeks time frame.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


As we see from the words of the prophecy, Messiah cutt off, and temple and city destroyed occur after the 69th week, yet the 70th week does not start until verse 27 with the confirming of the covenant.


To put it another way, Messiah being cut off, and temple destroyed doesn’t take place during the 69 weeks, or the 1 week.

 

[Earburner]

Edit:
> JLB, your Bible version (?) scripture selection, of Dan. 9:26-27 is not helping you to prove your understanding, that Jesus is implied by the word "he", in verse 27.<

My references of two versions of Bibles below, in comparison, is to show how "word changes" can and do manipulate one's own conclusion about the context, which forms a belief system.

(Your Bible version- NKJV(??), with it's changes, revealing Titus.)
(My KJV Bible version- revealing Christ.)

Dan. 9:26-27, comparing two different Bible versions. (What yours is I don't know.):
??- [26] “And after the sixty-two weeks
KJV- [26] And after threescore and two weeks

Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

And the people of the prince who is to come
and the people of the prince that shall come

Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

The end of it shall be with a flood,
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,

And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

But in the middle of the week
and in the midst of the week

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

Even until the consummation, which is determined,
even until the consummation, and that determined,

Is poured out on the desolate.”
shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:26-27

Your KJV(??)
My KJV!!

Edit:
>Q. What was determined to take place withinin the 70 weeks?
A. The six works of God. Dan. 9:24.

Q. Who "finished" those six works of God?
A. John 17
[4] I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.<

 

[Earburner]

As we see from the words of the prophecy, Messiah cutt off, and temple and city destroyed occur after the 69th week, yet the 70th week does not start until verse 27 with the confirming of the covenant.

The 70th week of 7 years is performed by whom?
Jesus or Titus?

Of course, ..it is Jesus!! During His First appearance in the flesh, beginning on the day of His baptism, which was at the age of 30 yrs. old.
Or, are you in agreement with the false teaching that those 7 years were "cut off" (hi-jacked) from the 70th week, and then attached to the "end times", whereby "church-ianity" falsely calls it "The 7 year Great Tribulation"?

Do not all here see the fabricated "delusion" of a literal 7 year Great Tribulation ??

Well of course not!
Many are drinking the "cool-aid" of "the wisdom of men", all each having their own Denominational Bible College degrees, with titles such as "Doctor of Divinity", etc., while all the listeners sit back, like dry sponges, swallowing their self imposed authority OVER the scriptures.

Am I against "higher learning"? Absolutely not,......at least for the THINGS of THIS world anyways.
1 John 2
[26] These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
[27] But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Who has anointed you??
Is it the Holy Spirit of God, or was it a church, or a denominational church's College, or maybe,.... even the likes of those who are APPROVED FROM THERE?

1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [authority] of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Messiah being “cut off” crucified (33 AD) and the city and sanctuary destroyed
(70 AD), occurred outside of the 70 weeks time frame.


“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


As we see from the words of the prophecy, Messiah cutt off, and temple and city destroyed occur after the 69th week, yet the 70th week does not start until verse 27 with the confirming of the covenant.


To put it another way, Messiah being cut off, and temple destroyed doesn’t take place during the 69 weeks, or the 1 week.

It says the Messiah would be cut off after the end of the 69th week. That places His death within the 70th week during which He confirmed the new covenant by way of His ministry, His death, which made the old covenant sacrifices and offerings obsolete, His resurrection and the preaching of His gospel first in Israel. There is no basis whatsoever for inserting a large gap between the end of the 69th week and beginning of the 70th week.

Tell me how reconciliation for iniquity can possibly be made apart from the death and shed blood of Christ?

 

[Timtofly]

How do you reconcile the sounding of the seventh trumpet as the beginning of one thousand more years after Christ returns, with Rev 10:5-7 where we read "that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished"?

That time is the end of Daniel's 70 weeks, not time itself.

Did you not see the qualifier:

7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The 70 weeks deal directly with that mystery.

The 7th Trumpet declares the 70 weeks are over, not human understanding, that wants the 70 weeks over in the first century.

How can you say the mystery was complete around 33AD? Did the 7th Trumpet sound in 33AD? Was time over then as you think time over?

 

[Timtofly]

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The seventh trumpet signals several things, one of which is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". When will the dead be judged? AFTER the thousand years, as shown in Revelation 20:11-15. So, the seventh trumpet will sound AFTER the thousands years (and Satan's little season).

That does not mean physically dead. The dead being judged are those humans alive on the earth, in a dead state.

That means the end of humans in mortal bodies. This is the judgment and eternal destination point of those still physically alive. Another place you interpret a literal assumed meaning to the text. Some will be tossed alive into the LOF. Some will be redeemed, and then inherit the earth for a thousand years.

The Jews in the first century were expecting an earthly kingdom, no longer associated with Adam's dead mortal punishment. That is the promise of Daniel 9:24.

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

This was not given to the Gentiles wholesale. This was given to the Jews waiting in captivity in Babylon. This would apply to all of Israel restored, as the ten tribes would be joined with Judah. This does not apply to the church, because this promise was placed on hold, and Israel was placed under partial blindness, until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Then the Prince to come will be declared King of the 7th Kingdom at the 7th Trumpet. Yes, Jesus is that Prince ruling in heaven. The promise and declaration of the 7th Trumpet, is the physical ruling on earth, and all nations will know and experience that rule. They all will have been removed from Adam's dead corruptible state. The millennial kingdom has no descendants of Adam in mortal bodies of death, as you put it. But they are not placed into immortality, because they are to subdue the earth, where Adam failed to do that, in the Garden of Eden, without sin and death.

The 7th Trumpet is the end of sin and physical death. The end of decay, and nature breaking down, causing science as we know it, to be turned upside down. The thousand years is for humans to enjoy creation as it was intended at the beginning, before Adam disobeyed, and turned creation upside down.

It seems Amil cannot perceive what creation was like prior to Adam's disobedience. Creation itself needs to be made alive, not just Adam's descendants. The Cross provided the physical aspect of God's redemption, but Daniel 9:24 was not fulfilled, because it was placed on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles to come in.

No Scripture states: "Jesus 'snaps His finger' and creation is restored at the Second Coming". That is an Amil imagined assumption. Jesus must rule and reign on earth, for that thousand years, until earth is subdued. That ruling and reigning is not going on now, because sin is still being worked out during the fulness of the Gentiles. The millennial kingdom is without sin and decay via death. Then the last and final enemy is death itself. That is not a thousand years over in a twinkling of an eye. Nor in the last 2 days of the fulness of the Gentiles; millennia. A thousand is a thousand, not 2 thousand.

 

[Timtofly]

Premils try to say that He will come to rule over over the kingdoms of the world with a rod of iron. Is that what the following passages are describing? It sure doesn't look like it!

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Of course that is exactly what happens for a thousand years.

See these verses: Matthew 3:11-12

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

This is the fire of 2 Peter 3:10

Not that the earth and heaven cease to exist. God does not destroy Paradise, the third heaven, the tree of life, all the stars/angels. Nor will God destroy that heavenly temple and kill all those redeemed along with the heavens being dissolved. That is how you read 2 Peter 3:10. That is not misrepresenting your view. You state heaven and earth are burned up including all those people and things both in heaven and earth. That is your literal wooden interpretation.

This happens at the 5th Seal at the same time as the rapture. And the heavens and earth do not come to a climatic end. What is destroyed is all of man's works, and the heavens are changed forever, as the stars have now come to earth. Revelation 6:11-13; the 6th Seal goes hand in hand with the 5th Seal.

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

This is the baptism of fire that consumes all the works of man both in the heavens and on the earth per the prophesy of John the Baptist and Peter.

And those verses of utter destruction in your post are part of the cleansing of the whole earth, and that is why it is Jacob's trouble, and the GT. None of Scripture contradicts ruling with a rod of iron for a thousand years. Disobedience will not be tolerated. No one individual will plunge the world into sin, but they will be handed the death sentence for the first offense against that iron rod rule.

You interpret those verses as a one time climatic ending. But the verb tense is an ongoing action. That will be the ongoing destruction of any who think it necessary to disobey.

That Jesus the Prince is declared the King of every nation at the 7th Trumpet is that inheritance mentioned. If a person loves disobedience, Jesus will be the greatest "dictator" against them, to ever rule. Jesus can toss soul and body into the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I am not. People who reject His words are not saints, yet you are calling them saints. That makes no sense.


This requires an in depth look at that parable in order to understand what Jesus was saying there. It also requires taking other scripture into consideration.

Not long before He told that parable Jesus said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). So, the parable of the wheat and tares is about those who are with Jesus (saved people, saints) and those who are against Him (the lost, unsaved people).

Did you read the whole parable? The parable itself does not support premillennialism, but rather supports amillennialism and I will explain why.

Jesus contrasted those who are part of the kingdom of God (the wheat or good seed) with those who are part of the kingdom of the wicked one (the tares). When He talked about gathering the ones out of His kingdom that offend He was not referring to anyone being gathered out the kingdom of God that He reigned over, but to the world in general. Remember, this is something that happens at the end of the age which is when Jesus will return. At that point the kingdom (or kingdoms) of the world will become the kingdom of God the Father and His Son (Revelation 11:15).

So, the world will be His at that point and He is speaking in that sense in Matthew 13:41 and not talking about people being taken out of the kingdom of God that He reigns over. No, only saved people are in the kingdom of God. You are saying that it's the judgment of saints and calling those who reject His words saints. No, those who reject His words are not saints. He is not talking about saints being gathered out of His kingdom because saints are those who belong to Him.

Let's look at how Jesus explained what the parable means.

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So, Jesus said the field is the world and the world belongs to Him. The parable itself starts out by Jesus saying "The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field" (Matt 13:24). See, how He called it "his field"? And He said "the field is the world". So, He was referring to the world as being His. So, when it talks about gathering out of "His kingdom" everything that offends and does iniquity, it's talking about His world represented by the field in the parable.

Notice that the good seed (wheat) represent "children of the kingdom". Don't confuse that with the kingdom of the world that belongs to Christ ("his field"). That is only referring to the kingdom of God that only believers are part of. And the children of the kingdom are contrasted with "the children of the wicked one" who are represented by the tares in the parable. The tares represent all of the wicked. All unsaved people since all unsaved people are children of the devil. Again, as Jesus said, "He who is not with me is against me". So, Jesus divided up all people into two groups. Those who are with Him and those who are against Him. That is represented in this parable.

So, what happens to the tares, who represent the children of the wicked one, which are those who are against Jesus? They are cast "into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth". That is a reference to the final destination for unbelievers. It's called the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15. Surely, Matthew 13:42 and Revelation 20:15 are speaking of the same thing since scripture does not teach that unbelievers will be cast into the fire on more than one occasion. Revelation 20:15 is clear that all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the fire at the same time.

Then notice what it says in Matthew 13:43. The good seed or wheat are referred to as "the righteous" and it says at that point they will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". So, Jesus will have delivered the kingdom to the Father at that point, as Paul said would happen at "the end" when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-24) since it refers to the kingdom as "the kingdom of their Father" at that point. That is talking about eternity being ushered in at that point because we know that when "the end" comes the last enemy, death, is destroyed (1 Cor 15:24-26). So, Jesus taught that eternity will be ushered in at the end of the age, which is when He will return (Matt 24:3). The parable supports amillennialism. The time when the lost are cast into the fire is after the thousand years as Revelation 20:11-15 indicates.

Here is a similar parable to the parable of the wheat and tares. Can you tell me how you interpret this:

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Who do you think the good fish (or good sea creatures) represent in this parable? Who do you think the bad fish (or bad sea creatures) represent? Jesus referred to the good as "the just" and the bad as "the wicked". So, who do you think "the just" represent and who do you think "the wicked" represent in this parable?

I'd also like to know how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46. Who are the sheep and who are the goats?

For me, it's easy to discern what Matthew 13:24-30;36-43; Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 are about. They are about what will happen when Jesus comes with His angels at the end of the age and all refer to the day of judgment that Jesus often talked about. All we have to do to determine who the people are being referenced in those passages is to remember what Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 which is "He who is not with me is against me". Those are are with Him are represented by the good seed/wheat, the good fish, and the sheep while those who are against Him are represented by the tares, the bad fish and the goats who are all cast into the fire just like those whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev 20:15) and that happens AFTER the thousand years, not before.

You left out several key points that contradict your eschatology.

This sowing is done personally by Jesus at the Second Coming, not an ongoing phenomenon carried out by the church. Both Jesus and the angels are on the earth at this sowing and reaping. So humans are still alive on the earth post the Second Coming. The church is not on the earth post the Second Coming. Since this is an agricultural parable, the sowing part symbolizes those directly chosen by Jesus as being in His kingdom, not that those people made that decision on their own. Jesus is not literally sowing the seed. Jesus is literally choosing His kingdom, and who will be part of that kingdom for the next thousand years. This harvest takes place between the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet of Revelation, declaring Jesus now King over those whom He personally chose.

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

These are literal angels, not messengers represented by the church.

"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world;"

Satan will be personally on the earth actively recruiting a following. All people will understand who Satan is, and will be deceived.

This is a Second Coming harvest. Not an explanation of the next 2 millennium, after the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

Please explain how you reconcile your position with the Bible!

Simple.

After the church is removed at the Second Coming, that heavenly kingdom cannot be seen by those on the earth. That will not change. What changes is that Jesus inherits the throne of David to fulfill all the OT promises that Israel is the preeminent nation on earth. That declaration is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Then Jesus must reign until the earth is subdued under the terms and conditions in Genesis 1, without sin.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Adam messed that plan up. Jesus will finish that plan during the Day of the Lord. That Day is a thousand years. Jesus does not reign for 24 hours and then gives up, because a thousand years is too long.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Creation is also made alive in 1 Corinthians 15:28. Jesus does not hand back to God a burnt offering, nor cheat and snap His fingers in an instant. The Day of the Lord is a Sabbath rest from sin and decay causing death.

 

[Timtofly]

I already addressed this. It references the 7 weeks first and then the 62 weeks. Why make something simple complicated?


The first coming of Christ was not a mystery. It is taught in the Old Testament. It wasn't a mystery to those who understood the Old Testament prophecies. Read Acts 2:25-38 where it talks about Simeon and Anna the prophetess who were expecting the Messiah to come around that time when He came. No one knew exactly when He was coming because the prophecy is not entirely clear about that. It doesn't specify exactly which command to restore and rebuilt Jerusalem that it's talking about. There is debate about that. So, people who read the prophecy definitely could have predicted a range of time at which point the Messiah would come based on starting with the command to rebuild and restore Jerusalem, but when exactly that command was issued is not entirely clear.


Yeah, and it indicates that the 62 weeks follow the first 7 weeks. If you think that isn't clear, so be it. I think it is.


You claim that there's people who believe (or believed) it's talking about Jesus being cut off during the 63rd week but can't provide any examples of anyone believing that. I don't understand this. Where are you getting that idea from if you can't even provide any evidence of anyone actually believing that?

The coming of Christ was a mystery, and total rejection of most of the religious Jews who did claim to have knowledge. They continued to question Jesus' authority for 3.5 years.

That only Anna and Simeon, the only 2 left of the generation who expected Jesus, were still looking for the Messiah, means that the 69 weeks had been up for decades.

There were 7 weeks, then a gap. Then the process was restarted, and the 62 weeks happened. Then there was a gap, until Jesus was born. Then 30 years until Jesus was baptized. The 70th week was the 3.5 years as Messiah. But then Jesus left the earth, and did not complete the last 3.5 years as Prince that would have brought to pass those promises in Daniel 9:24. Jesus literally has to be on the earth as both Messiah and Prince. Not remote for thousands of years and call that last 3.5 years fulfilled.

There should be no debate that Jesus is the 70th week.

The gap in the 70th week is so the fulness of the Gentiles can come in, while Israel is blind in part, until the last 3.5 years is declared over at the 7th Trumpet. That is the point of Revelation 10, and the mystery that is still a mystery to those in partial blindness.

And still a mystery to those who claim the 70 weeks are over. That time is not over until the 7th Trumpet sounds declaring that time is over. Yes, many are wrong placing the entire 70th week at the Second Coming. Just as wrong as those placing the entire 70th week at the first coming. Jesus has two comings that make up the 70th week.

The point was 69 weeks until Messiah the Prince. Or 69 weeks until the 70th week (Messiah the Prince) . Jesus is the Prince to come. So the last half of the 70th week is still to come.

You say Jesus is Prince now in heaven. That is all well and good, but the majority of those living on earth, and have lived on the earth, don't know that fact. Most will understand after it is too late for them.

Had Jesus been sitting on the throne in Jerusalem, all would know that had happened.

 

[Timtofly]

Many have not figured it out that Rev. 1 says that the Revelation came from God the Father, to Jesus, then His angel, who gave it to John in a series of visions, that didn't all come to him in one sitting. Who then had to hand write it all down, and then give it to the Seven churches.

This makes no sense. John was taken by the Holy Spirit to the Lord's Day. Why would an angel show John a prophesy, and then tell him not to write it down. They were not "visions from an angel". John saw the events and then wrote them down in a symbolic literary structure. Until he was told in one case not to write what he saw.

 

[Earburner]

This makes no sense. John was taken by the Holy Spirit to the Lord's Day. Why would an angel show John a prophesy, and then tell him not to write it down. They were not "visions from an angel". John saw the events and then wrote them down in a symbolic literary structure. Until he was told in one case not to write what he saw.

Rev. 1
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are,
and the things which shall be hereafter;

And you believe that John, with pen and ink, and parchment, wrote the whole book of Rev. by hand in one 24 hour day??

From the site below, is a comment for that discussion:
"Looking at other documents from around the same time period we can assume papyri and/or parchment (Dead Sea Scrolls).

2 John 1:12-3 or 3 John 1: 13 mentions that paper and ink were used during the time period by at least one of the apostles."

What writing materials did the writers of the Gospels use?

I am wondering what kind of writing materials the writers of the Gospels used to make the original scrolls. I know that papyrus and parchment were used widely at the time.

christianity.stackexchange.com

 

[Timtofly]

Rev. 1
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are,
and the things which shall be hereafter;

And you believe that John, with pen and ink, and parchment, wrote the whole book of Rev. by hand in one 24 hour day??

From the site below, is a comment for that discussion:
"Looking at other documents from around the same time period we can assume papyri and/or parchment (Dead Sea Scrolls).

2 John 1:12-3 or 3 John 1: 13 mentions that paper and ink were used during the time period by at least one of the apostles."

What writing materials did the writers of the Gospels use?

I am wondering what kind of writing materials the writers of the Gospels used to make the original scrolls. I know that papyrus and parchment were used widely at the time.

christianity.stackexchange.com

No, it was not "one day". The Lord's Day will last for a thousand years. Satan's reign is 42 months. John had plenty of time to watch every thing happen in real time, and write things down.

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

John was about to write down a multiple day event, 7 different events to be exact, after he saw them. He was writing things down as they happened. He did not write down dreams and visions. He wrote about actual events that had happened, and as they happened.

Even the section direct to the 7 seven churches were prophetic from an historical viewpoint as they had already happened when he was writing, but had not happened yet, when they received the written work.

 

[Earburner]

No, it was not "one day". The Lord's Day will last for a thousand years. Satan's reign is 42 months. John had plenty of time to watch every thing happen in real time, and write things down.

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

John was about to write down a multiple day event, 7 different events to be exact, after he saw them. He was writing things down as they happened. He did not write down dreams and visions. He wrote about actual events that had happened, and as they happened.

Even the section direct to the 7 seven churches were prophetic from an historical viewpoint as they had already happened when he was writing, but had not happened yet, when they received the written work.

Which day is the Lord's day that you are talking about?
1. The Jewish Sabbath observance?
2. Sunday observance by church-ianity?
3. The 24 hour Day of Jesus' visible and Glorious return?
4. A 1000 years of Christ reigning on earth?

I understand it to be #3, KJV Luke 17:28-30.
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed [from heaven].
See also 2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Peter 3:10.

 

[Earburner]

The 4th and final beast is made up of all the remnants (body parts)of the previous 3 beasts kingdoms.

I agree.

Revelation 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a “leopard,” and his feet were as the feet of a “bear,”and his mouth as the mouth of “a lion:”and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Even though those kingdoms of Babylon the Lion, Persia the Bear, and Greece the Leopard do not remain in the physical sense, in the “spiritual sense”a lot of their beliefs, traditions, ideologies, and styles of governance remain still today.

I agree.

That is why the 4th beast would be “diverse”from the first 3.

I agree.

When the Lord cleanses the earth with fire a “remnant” of the nations shall be left to repopulate the earth during the thousand year reign of Christ on earth with his saints. That remnant that is left of the nations is what comes against the saints after the thousands years is complete. This is shown as the battle of Gog and Magog.

I disagree. The words describing a confrontation with Gog and Magog have no historic reality that can be traced. Therefore, for God to use the words "Gog and Magog", being a reference to Ezk. 38 and 39, is His way to define Rev. 20:6-9, which is telling of a confrontation that is equal in magnitude, but is under a different description. That description of such a confrontation, is Armageddon.
Rev. 16
[15] Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.**
[16] And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

**KJV Rev. 20:6-9
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ [ambassadors], and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[All should know and come to terms with fact that only Jesus is the First Resurrection, and all who are "Born Again" of His Holy Spirit are indeed taking part in His Resurrection, being "partakers of the divine nature"]
[7] And when the [figuratve] thousand years [of God's Grace] are expired [Mat. 24:14], Satan shall be loosed out of his prison ["chains of darkness"],
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
> Gog is symbolic of Satan's Beast, and Magog is symbolic of all of the unsaved.
That fire, that is to "come down from God out of heaven", is the sudden and Glorious return of Jesus Himself in flaming fire. KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10

I wrote a thread on the “feet” of the Bear kingdom, which I believe is important to understand concerning end time prophecy.

Peace

Can you provide the location of your thread on the feet of the bear?
Thanks.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I disagree. The words describing a confrontation with Gog and Magog have no historic reality that can be traced. Therefore, for God to use the words "Gog and Magog", being a reference to Ezk. 38 and 39, is His way to define Rev. 20:6-9, which is telling of a confrontation that is equal in magnitude, but is under a different description. That description of such a confrontation, is Armageddon.

You fail to understand the time line of events.
Daniel 7:11 is a match to Rev. 19:20

Daniel 7:11​

King James Version​

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This prophecy is confirmed here in Rev. 19:20…

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone”

This confirms the timing of what happens next in Daniel 7:12….

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This confirms what happens in Rev. Chapter 20. This “season and a time” is the thousand years mentioned in Rev. 20.

After the battle of Armageddon shown in Rev. 19 the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of God and of Christ. That is why it shows at that time “they had their dominion taken away”.

But if you will notice not all the rest of the beasts were cast into the lake of fire at that time, but as it is written “yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time”

This proves that some of those people from the other nations had “ their lives prolonged” meaning they were not killed at that time.

These are the remnant of the nations who will be deceived after the thousand years are expired….

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

Can you provide the location of your thread on the feet of the bear?
Thanks.

It’s in this forum, perhaps a couple of pages back. If you can’t find it I’ll provide a link.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Here’s the link….https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/the-%E2%80%9Cfeet%E2%80%9D-of-the-bear-kingdom.64167/

 

[Earburner]

You fail to understand the time line of events.
Daniel 7:11 is a match to Rev. 19:20

Daniel 7:11​

King James Version​

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Dan. 7:11 is more timely to that of the 3rd Beast, the Grecian-Seleucid kingdom of the "little horn", named Antiochus Epiphanes lV. Then following was that of the literal 4th Beast with 10 horns of the Roman Empire, and when it was that Rome was "given to the burning flame".

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This prophecy is confirmed here in Rev. 19:20…

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone”

This confirms the timing of what happens next in Daniel 7:12….

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This confirms what happens in Rev. Chapter 20. This “season and a time” is the thousand years mentioned in Rev. 20.

After the battle of Armageddon shown in Rev. 19 the kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of God and of Christ. That is why it shows at that time “they had their dominion taken away”.

But if you will notice not all the rest of the beasts were cast into the lake of fire at that time, but as it is written “yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time”

This proves that some of those people from the other nations had “ their lives prolonged” meaning they were not killed at that time.

These are the remnant of the nations who will be deceived after the thousand years are expired….

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

It’s in this forum, perhaps a couple of pages back. If you can’t find it I’ll provide a link.

Nothing of what you have referenced from Daniel, pertains to the conglomorate beast with 10 horns of Rev. 13:1-10. Although it has been evolving through the centuries, the Beast and it's 10 horns has not yet been manifested as to what it shall be, until just before the Lord returns.

But, we do have a clue** of it's power to rule the world in its final stage. It will be a Global Economic Empire, whereby no prior world ruling Beast has ever been like it.

**Rev. 13:17
[15] And he [USA] had power to give [political] life unto the image [UN] of the beast, that the image [UN] of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship [comply with] the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he [the Image of the Beast] causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And **that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark [for individuals], or the name of the beast [for governments], or the number of his name [for businesses].