Things are getting scary in England

[aspen]

That idiotic remark reveals you didn't really read that post. Shame on you.

I read the post and found it to be just as historically relevant as the Book of Mormon and I thought "at least the Mormons could benefit from this farce" so I made the most useful connection possible - shame on you, Mr. Veteran!

 

[ronmorgen]

The founding fathers were Christian as opposed to secularists. Regardless of their denominational differences, their love and belief in the bible united them. It must be remembered why the original Protestant settlers fled to the new world.. They been under persecution by the government empowered Catholic Church in England, so they didn't want any religion to be government empowered. This is a far cry from not believing in the bible. The bible does not advocate setting up a Christian state, or supporting a religion by law, and the constitution forbids this. These two entities should be completely separate.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
John 18:36
.
.

 

[ronmorgen]

Many so called "Christians" may not really know Christ by way of Holy Spirit revelation, but only by way of religion or intellectual knowledge. Thomas Jefferson seems to be one of these as revealed by his writings. It was the moral teachings of Jesus in the bible which impressed him. He's seems to have not believed in the bible's revelation of "Who" Jesus was or in his miracles, etc. This phenomena will remain until judgment day when the true believers are separated from intellectual believers. It is difficult for us mortals to make that judgement. Each individual must judge himself as to whether he is really in the faith. So I am not making that Judgment about the founding fathers. Only in the broader sense am I saying they were Christian.

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith ; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-unless, of course, you fail the test?
2 Corinthians 13:5

 

[Templar81]

ronmorgan
They weren''t persecuted by the Catholic Church in England because by the time of the May Flower England had been a Protestant country for a hundred years. For a further two undred years there were virtually no Roman Catholics in England.

As for the Pilgrim fathers;
They were persecuted however because they were puritans. Puritans were never popular in Europe as they were seen as too radical to most conventional Protestant denominations; ie. Lutheran, Calvinist and Anglican.

 

[ronmorgen]

ronmorgan
They weren''t persecuted by the Catholic Church in England because by the time of the May Flower England had been a Protestant country for a hundred years. For a further two undred years there were virtually no Roman Catholics in England.

As for the Pilgrim fathers;
They were persecuted however because they were puritans. Puritans were never popular in Europe as they were seen as too radical to most conventional Protestant denominations; ie. Lutheran, Calvinist and Anglican.

OK , thanks for the correction. They were deeply concerned about religions having state power to persecute those who disagree with them however. Wouldn't you agree? Seems to me that advocates of a religion should only have the power of freedom of speech, to assemble, etc. and not of civil law to influence people. Sharia law is a wonderful example of this in that it enforces a particular religion BY LAW. That would make it as unconstitutional as the laws in England that the American colonists were rebelling against.

I must exit this subject now as my calling is not political, but rather teaching God's prophetic word, and I will err less if I confine myself to my calling.

 

[Templar81]

OK boyo!

 

[veteran]

I read the post and found it to be just as historically relevant as the Book of Mormon and I thought "at least the Mormons could benefit from this farce" so I made the most useful connection possible - shame on you, Mr. Veteran!

All you've done is reveal your lack of Bible study, and lack of history, especially concerning the many links to Israel that America's founding fathers wrote. Ben Franklin even wanted to have Moses and the Red Sea parting as part of the Great Seal of The United States of America. None of that is about Mormonism.

So, what were those "multitude of nations" that Ephraim was to become? and the great people that his brother Manasseh was to become? If you feel you have authority and knowledge to counter what I offered, then you ought to be able to explain that Biblical prophecy about Ephraim and Manasseh.

 

[aspen]

All you've done is reveal your lack of Bible study, and lack of history, especially concerning the many links to Israel that America's founding fathers wrote. Ben Franklin even wanted to have Moses and the Red Sea parting as part of the Great Seal of The United States of America. None of that is about Mormonism.

So, what were those "multitude of nations" that Ephraim was to become? and the great people that his brother Manasseh was to become? If you feel you have authority and knowledge to counter what I offered, then you ought to be able to explain that Biblical prophecy about Ephraim and Manasseh.

My lack of knowledge regarding conspiracy theories masquerading as history? Yeah, I agree

You are showing your lack of knowledge about Mormon theology and history. Mormons believe Nephi sailed on a ship to the New World and established the Nephites who were killed by a division of their own people called the Lamenites and they are the descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel in the new promise land, which is considered the Americas. So why are you teaching Mormon doctrine on this board? The Early Church Fathers never mentioned your interpretation. It is an early 18th century myth that was adopted by Joseph Smith.

 

[veteran]

The founding fathers were Christian as opposed to secularists. Regardless of their denominational differences, their love and belief in the bible united them. It must be remembered why the original Protestant settlers fled to the new world.. They been under persecution by the government empowered Catholic Church in England, so they didn't want any religion to be government empowered. This is a far cry from not believing in the bible. The bible does not advocate setting up a Christian state, or supporting a religion by law, and the constitution forbids this. These two entities should be completely separate.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."
John 18:36
.
.

Is some of that what you learned from God's Word about supposed separation of Church and State, or is it something you've picked up from the TV and man's politics? There is NO separation of church and state clause in the United States Constitution. How the U.S. manifests Constitutional law regarding church and state today is not how it was manifested in the founder's days. Not even a century ago in the United States there existed 'Blue laws' which were Bible based, and they were the law in cities, counties, and states. Today's younger generation doesn't remember that because they didn't live when they were enacted as laws in the U.S. A little time spent in the library should take care of learning about that though.

In Israel's past history, God used division and strife to bring about His Plan of Salvation. Even the split of Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days would later benefit His overall Plan, and the believing remnant of Israel in that plan, and then for all peoples that believe. So the Catholic persecutions of Protestant Christians was just as much a viable part in His establishing His people in the Americas as with any other separations within Israel's past history.

My lack of knowledge regarding conspiracy theories masquerading as history? Yeah, I agree

You are showing your lack of knowledge about Mormon theology and history. Mormons believe Nephi sailed on a ship to the New World and established the Nephites who were killed by a division of their own people called the Lamenites and they are the descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel in the promise land, which is considered the Americas. So why are you teaching Mormon doctrine on this board? The Early Church Fathers never mentioned your interpretation. It is an early 18th century myth that was adopted by Joseph Smith.

That's just rambling. You didn't answer the following at all...

So, what were those "multitude of nations" that Ephraim was to become? and the great people that his brother Manasseh was to become? If you feel you have authority and knowledge to counter what I offered, then you ought to be able to explain that Biblical prophecy about Ephraim and Manasseh.

 

[aspen]

Is some of that what you learned from God's Word about supposed separation of Church and State, or is it something you've picked up from the TV and man's politics? There is NO separation of church and state clause in the United States Constitution. How the U.S. manifests Constitutional law regarding church and state today is not how it was manifested in the founder's days. Not even a century ago in the United States there existed 'Blue laws' which were Bible based, and they were the law in cities, counties, and states. Today's younger generation doesn't remember that because they didn't live when they were enacted as laws in the U.S. A little time spent in the library should take care of learning about that though.

In Israel's past history, God used division and strife to bring about His Plan of Salvation. Even the split of Israel into two separate kingdoms after Solomon's days would later benefit His overall Plan, and the believing remnant of Israel in that plan, and then for all peoples that believe. So the Catholic persecutions of Protestant Christians was just as much a viable part in His establishing His people in the Americas as with any other separations within Israel's past history.






That's just rambling. You didn't answer the following at all...

So, what were those "multitude of nations" that Ephraim was to become? and the great people that his brother Manasseh was to become? If you feel you have authority and knowledge to counter what I offered, then you ought to be able to explain that Biblical prophecy about Ephraim and Manasseh.

Several western Christian groups, in particular those of the Church of God in Christ, claim that the whole UK is the direct descendant of Ephraim, and that the whole USA is the direct descendant of Manasseh, based on the interpretation that Jacob had said these two tribes would become the most supreme nations in the world. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes a significant portion of its members to be descended from Ephraim, arguing that they are charged with restoring the lost tribes in the latter daysas prophesied by Isaiah, and that the tribes of both Ephraim and Judah will play important leadership roles for covenant Israel in the last days; some believe that this would be the fulfilment of part of the Blessing of Jacob, where it states that Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall (Genesis 49:22, interpreting the "wall" as the ocean).[sup][20][/sup]

In reality, the 10 Lost Tribes were scattered or taken into Babylonian captivity.

 

[veteran]

My lack of knowledge regarding conspiracy theories masquerading as history? Yeah, I agree

You are showing your lack of knowledge about Mormon theology and history. Mormons believe Nephi sailed on a ship to the New World and established the Nephites who were killed by a division of their own people called the Lamenites and they are the descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel in the new promise land, which is considered the Americas. So why are you teaching Mormon doctrine on this board? The Early Church Fathers never mentioned your interpretation. It is an early 18th century myth that was adopted by Joseph Smith.

For those interested, Joseph Smith's founding of the Mormon church was solely based on his supposed discovery of some Persian writings accompanied with some sort of private revelation. That's where he got the ideas of polygamy (many wives) from; not from The Bible, but from Persian ideology.

And because of that, the Mormons had to flee to the west because the Protestant Churches east of the Mississippi wouldn't put up with his beliefs. Thus he did NOT derive any beliefs of Mormons representing the lost tribes of Israel from his Persian madness.

The understanding of scattered Israel to the West was a doctrine that the Protestants in England and Scotland had long before Joseph Smith ever existed. Trying to tie that to the Mormons like aspen is trying to do is a joke.

 

[aspen]

For those interested, Joseph Smith's founding of the Mormon church was solely based on his supposed discovery of some Persian writings accompanied with some sort of private revelation. That's where he got the ideas of polygamy (many wives) from; not from The Bible, but from Persian ideology.

And because of that, the Mormons had to flee to the west because the Protestant Churches east of the Mississippi wouldn't put up with his beliefs. Thus he did NOT derive any beliefs of Mormons representing the lost tribes of Israel from his Persian madness.

The understanding of scattered Israel to the West was a doctrine that the Protestants in England and Scotland had long before Joseph Smith ever existed. Trying to tie that to the Mormons like aspen is trying to do is a joke.

You are preaching Mormonism, Veteran.

The Golden Plates that Smith claimed to find were supposedly written in Egyptian because Mormons claim that the lost tribes settled in Egypt.. The Mormon Church turned over the manuscript of the Pearl of Great Price to an expert for translation and found out it was a common funeral writing - part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. I am not sure where you got the Persian connection, perhaps it is a way to distance yourself from Mormonism. You belief in the Lost Tribes is all 19th century speculation.

 

[veteran]

You are preaching Mormonism, Veteran.

The Golden Plates that Smith claimed to find were supposedly written in Egyptian because Mormons claim that the lost tribes settled in Egypt.. The Mormon Church turned over the manuscript of the Pearl of Great Price to an expert for translation and found out it was a common funeral writing - part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. I am not sure where you got the Persian connection, perhaps it is a way to distance yourself from Mormonism. You belief in the Lost Tribes is all 19th century speculation.

I am not preaching Mormonism. I'm a Protestant Christian, not a Mormon. But obviously, you are preaching Mormonism like you had some bad experience with them or something, and have a personal vendetta.

I see you changed your supposed time for the idea of the ten lost tribes to 19th century instead 18th century myth like you said previously. Kind of shooting from the hip, aren't you? Shows you don't know what you're talking about. You're 18th century timing was more correct, but it goes even back farther than the 18th century with the Scots.

The Message about the ten lost tribes of Israel is not an idea that originated with Mormonism, nor did it even begin with them.


Scottish Declaration Of Arbroath - 1320 A.D.

Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner. The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith.

 

[aspen]

I am not preaching Mormonism. I'm a Protestant Christian, not a Mormon. But obviously, you are preaching Mormonism like you had some bad experience with them or something, and have a personal vendetta.

Mmm.....no. I think Mormons are some of the nicest people around.....I simply disagree with their doctrine.....but you obviously know all about their doctrine..


I see you changed your supposed time for the idea of the ten lost tribes to 19th century instead 18th century myth like you said previously. Kind of shooting from the hip, aren't you? Shows you don't know what you're talking about. You're 18th century timing was more correct, but it goes even back farther than the 18th century with the Scots.

Actually, it shows that I misspoke. Mormonism started in the 1820s. The tone of your post make you sound all riled up.....did I strike a nerve?

The Message about the ten lost tribes of Israel is not an idea that originated with Mormonism, nor did it even begin with them.

Scottish Declaration Of Arbroath - 1320 A.D.



Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner. The high qualities and deserts of these people, were they not otherwise manifest, gain glory enough from this: that the King of kings and Lord of lords, our Lord Jesus Christ, after His Passion and Resurrection, called them, even though settled in the uttermost parts of the earth, almost the first to His most holy faith.

I never said Mormons made up the idea. Unfortunately, for them, the idea is a cornerstone of their belief system and it sure seems important to you as well.

 

[veteran]

aspen said:
I never said Mormons made up the idea. Unfortunately, for them, the idea is a cornerstone of their belief system and it sure seems important to you as well.

If you now admit the idea didn't originate from the Mormons, then that shows you knew all along the idea of the ten lost tribes didn't begin with their beliefs.

Yet you chose a smear tactic of trying to associate my Christian belief with Mormonism anyway, and still try to do that. I am not a Mormon, nor a Communist-Socialist. I'm a Protestant Christian.

Regardless of how much evidence someone like you is shown about it, your attitude reveals you are out to smear and slander with reckless abandon. I doubt you noticed that Hammerstone also believes and understands the ten lost tribes Message from God's Word. Do you think he's a Mormon too? What about the Scots who wrote that Declaration of Arbroath, do you think they were secret Mormon's too?

 

[aspen]

If you now admit the idea didn't originate from the Mormons, then that shows you knew all along the idea of the ten lost tribes didn't begin with their beliefs.

Yet you chose a smear tactic of trying to associate my Christian belief with Mormonism anyway, and still try to do that. I am not a Mormon, nor a Communist-Socialist. I'm a Protestant Christian.

Regardless of how much evidence someone like you is shown about it, your attitude reveals you are out to smear and slander with reckless abandon. I doubt you noticed that Hammerstone also believes and understands the ten lost tribes Message from God's Word. Do you think he's a Mormon too? What about the Scots who wrote that Declaration of Arbroath, do you think they were secret Mormon's too?

Haha,,,,,,,,whatever you need to believe Veteran....I am calling it for what it is.