This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

[Phoneman777]

Well he went somewhere because he was caught up. You can remain in the first century if you want to.

Pretty sure "up" denotes geographical location - as in "up to God in vision".

 

[WPM]

Can't he be a "witness" to things shown to him in vision while remaining at home in the first century, and not necessarily need to be transported to the end times to watch them unfold in real time in order to qualify as the same?

Of course, my friend!

Exactly.

 

[Timtofly]

Pretty sure "up" denotes geographical location - as in "up to God in vision".

So his writings in this vision miraculously appeared into reality during the vision?

Or was he also seeing himself writing things down?

Did Moses have visions or actually talked with God face to face?

Pretty sure if John actually entered Paradise and talked with people there, and wrote things down, that this was not your standard vision. Sounds like John was actually on the site of this live TV production. You can call it a vision all you want. John was an active participant and was writing in this live production vision.

 

[Phoneman777]

So his writings in this vision miraculously appeared into reality during the vision?

Or was he also seeing himself writing things down?

Did Moses have visions or actually talked with God face to face?

Pretty sure if John actually entered Paradise and talked with people there, and wrote things down, that this was not your standard vision. Sounds like John was actually on the site of this live TV production. You can call it a vision all you want. John was an active participant and was writing in this live production vision.

I think you've been watching "It's a Wonderful Life" too often. God doesn't have to use a "ghost of Christmas future" to escort a man into the future to show him what that future holds for him...He can show him what the 21st century holds while leaving him firmly planted in the 1st century. "Is anything to hard for the Lord?"

 

[Timtofly]

I think you've been watching "It's a Wonderful Life" too often. God doesn't have to use a "ghost of Christmas future" to escort a man into the future to show him what that future holds for him...He can show him what the 21st century holds while leaving him firmly planted in the 1st century. "Is anything to hard for the Lord?"

I think you are missing the point of what the Day of the Lord means.

God can do anything.

 

[Phoneman777]

I think you are missing the point of what the Day of the Lord means.

God can do anything.

The "Day of the Lord" is the day when He returns for His people, which comes upon them as a "thief in the night" and will be "as it was in the days of Noah...when the Flood came and took them all away".

The destruction of the Antediluvians happened in one day - violent torrential rains fell everywhere, the singular landmass of the Earth broke apart as subterranean forces exploded forth and shot massive columns of huge rocks and superheated water upward (one inspired writer says Satan was compelled to remain in the midst of the destruction which was so severe, he feared for his very existence), and since the high mountain ranges didn't exist then, but are actually the result of this destruction, there's no way humanity could have survived for more than a day from this incredibly lethal judgment of God.

 

[quietthinker]

The "Day of the Lord" is the day when He returns for His people, which comes upon them as a "thief in the night" and will be "as it was in the days of Noah...when the Flood came and took them all away".

The destruction of the Antediluvians happened in one day - violent torrential rains fell everywhere, the singular landmass of the Earth broke apart as subterranean forces exploded forth and shot massive columns of huge rocks and superheated water upward (one inspired writer says Satan was compelled to remain in the midst of the destruction which was so severe, he feared for his very existence), and since the high mountain ranges didn't exist then, but are actually the result of this destruction, there's no way humanity could have survived for more than a day from this incredibly lethal judgment of God.

Was it an arbitrary judgement of God Phoneman or was it the result (consequence) of the elements being fiddled with by the antedeluvians, Satan being the instigator?

 

[Timtofly]

The "Day of the Lord" is the day when He returns for His people, which comes upon them as a "thief in the night" and will be "as it was in the days of Noah...when the Flood came and took them all away".

The destruction of the Antediluvians happened in one day - violent torrential rains fell everywhere, the singular landmass of the Earth broke apart as subterranean forces exploded forth and shot massive columns of huge rocks and superheated water upward (one inspired writer says Satan was compelled to remain in the midst of the destruction which was so severe, he feared for his very existence), and since the high mountain ranges didn't exist then, but are actually the result of this destruction, there's no way humanity could have survived for more than a day from this incredibly lethal judgment of God.

Yep, still missing the whole point of the Day of the Lord.

Actually it took 40 days:

"And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth."

"And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days."

Just to make sure, the ark was left above the waters for another 150 days.

How about 2 Peter 3? Genesis 2?

Are you saying that no one survives the 6th Seal event, to live on earth for the rest of the judgments? Who is on earth when the 7th Seal is opened? Who is on earth when the Trumpets sound?

If you claim one continent was broken up into what we have today, and the mountains were formed in one day, what does the 6th Seal do in seconds?

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

You don't think God could put all the continents back into a single continent, and remove the mountains into smaller "hills" in a few seconds? While not killing a single human?

Yet you accept a human explanation over the 40 days it took to lift the ark up to the tops of the known "hills"? In a judgment that was supposed to kill every last human on earth, accept those in the ark.

The point of the Second Coming and subsequent Day of the Lord is not to kill off all the wicked. In fact it is to give them a chance to keep repenting, even if they don't ever repent. In one of the Trumpets, they want to die, and may even try, but cannot. The point is to remove souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

None of that changes the fact, that the 6th Seal is the surprise, thief in the night moment, when all are claiming peace and safety, and in seconds they have a totally different earth as a single continent, and everything thing they hold dear has been burned up. Not a drawn out Flood of water. No verse says it is going to take 24 hours for the 6th Seal to happen. That is not what the phrase Day of the Lord means.

The point is not to cause chaos, yet the state of mind will be chaotic on that day. The point is to restore the earth to the way God intended it to be.

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

That wrath won't be over in 24 hours either. The great day of His wrath is not the same phrase as the Day of the Lord. And neither means 24 hours. Both "days" come with a lot of quick and sudden destruction. Both "days" play out totally different in meaning. Both "days" come when least expected. But the wrath part has to be accomplished before the Day of the Lord can start.

Case in point. When Moses led Israel out of Egypt the Day of deliverance started with a rejection. They were not out of Egypt and in the promised land in 24 hours. In fact after 40 years, not many including Moses even arrived, who started the journey. Probably only Joshua and Caleb.

The Day of the Lord comes. But there is a process of wrath before it can start, and few will make it through to the "promised land". Those last ones only get there by having their heads chopped off as a testimony to Jesus Christ.

 

[Phoneman777]

Was it an arbitrary judgement of God Phoneman or was it the result (consequence) of the elements being fiddled with by the antedeluvians, Satan being the instigator?

Seems God had to do something to stop the spread of sin, lest the holy line through which the the Messiah would eventually come be lost. So, He waited until the very last moment when only Noah and his family were left before taking action. By wiping out all those who were hopelessly in rebellion, He preserved a last vestige of the holy lineage.

We can see evidence for this later when He told Moses to stand aside while He wiped out Israel and would make of him a great nation, obviously through which the lineage of the coming Messiah would be preserved, but Moses proved himself to be a "type of Christ" by asking God to spare them and take his life. This selfless act pleased the Lord and cooled His anger and let Israel off with the warning, "If any man sin, his name will I blot out of the book of life".

Yep, still missing the whole point of the Day of the Lord.

Actually it took 40 days:

"And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth."

"And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days."

Just to make sure, the ark was left above the waters for another 150 days.

How about 2 Peter 3? Genesis 2?

Are you saying that no one survives the 6th Seal event, to live on earth for the rest of the judgments? Who is on earth when the 7th Seal is opened? Who is on earth when the Trumpets sound?

If you claim one continent was broken up into what we have today, and the mountains were formed in one day, what does the 6th Seal do in seconds?

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

You don't think God could put all the continents back into a single continent, and remove the mountains into smaller "hills" in a few seconds? While not killing a single human?

Yet you accept a human explanation over the 40 days it took to lift the ark up to the tops of the known "hills"? In a judgment that was supposed to kill every last human on earth, accept those in the ark.

The point of the Second Coming and subsequent Day of the Lord is not to kill off all the wicked. In fact it is to give them a chance to keep repenting, even if they don't ever repent. In one of the Trumpets, they want to die, and may even try, but cannot. The point is to remove souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

None of that changes the fact, that the 6th Seal is the surprise, thief in the night moment, when all are claiming peace and safety, and in seconds they have a totally different earth as a single continent, and everything thing they hold dear has been burned up. Not a drawn out Flood of water. No verse says it is going to take 24 hours for the 6th Seal to happen. That is not what the phrase Day of the Lord means.

The point is not to cause chaos, yet the state of mind will be chaotic on that day. The point is to restore the earth to the way God intended it to be.

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

That wrath won't be over in 24 hours either. The great day of His wrath is not the same phrase as the Day of the Lord. And neither means 24 hours. Both "days" come with a lot of quick and sudden destruction. Both "days" play out totally different in meaning. Both "days" come when least expected. But the wrath part has to be accomplished before the Day of the Lord can start.

Case in point. When Moses led Israel out of Egypt the Day of deliverance started with a rejection. They were not out of Egypt and in the promised land in 24 hours. In fact after 40 years, not many including Moses even arrived, who started the journey. Probably only Joshua and Caleb.

The Day of the Lord comes. But there is a process of wrath before it can start, and few will make it through to the "promised land". Those last ones only get there by having their heads chopped off as a testimony to Jesus Christ.

Where does it say it took 40 days to drown everyone?

Pretty sure everyone was drowned before the end of the first day, what with all the fountains of the great deep bursting forth and the windows of heaven opening up and the tidal waves and turbidites and animals trampling everyone to escape the rapidly rising water.

I just can't imagine humanity be so resilient as to be able to withstand for long things like a Global Flood, the brightness of Jesus' coming, the elements melting with fervent heat and the earth and the works therein burning up

 

[quietthinker]

Seems God had to do something to stop the spread of sin, lest the holy line through which the the Messiah would eventually come be lost. So, He waited until the very last moment when only Noah and his family were left before taking action. By wiping out all those who were hopelessly in rebellion, He preserved a last vestige of the holy lineage.

We can see evidence for this later when He told Moses to stand aside while He wiped out Israel and would make of him a great nation, obviously through which the lineage of the coming Messiah would be preserved, but Moses proved himself to be a "type of Christ" by asking God to spare them and take his life. This selfless act pleased the Lord and cooled His anger and let Israel off with the warning, "If any man sin, his name will I blot out of the book of life".

Question is, did God do the destroying or were there other forces at work? If that is the case, they've pulled a clever stunt by giving God the blame.......and to cap it off, have it recorded in such a way that it enters the annuls known as 'God's Word'

The 'Word of God' which I have come to know, the one described in the first chapter of the Gospel of John; his epistle, 1 John 4:7-21 and Revelation 19:13 doesn't sound like one who would drown every living thing on the planet.

There is one however, who is quite willing to pull stuff like that off.....and blame the innocent.

 

[Phoneman777]

Are you saying that no one survives the 6th Seal event, to live on earth for the rest of the judgments?

Everyone gets prophecy wrong because they ignore the facts of the Sanctuary, which is the key to understanding where things are on the prophetic timeline, seeing that the book of Revelation is filled with Sanctuary symbolism.

If we're going to understand Revelation, we must first understand Daniel and recognize:

• 70 Weeks are cut off from the 2,300 Days, making them both begin with Artaxerxes' decree in 457 B.C.
• OT Feast Days are types of the antitypes fulfilled by Jesus, such as the Passover Lamb, etc.
• After the 2,300 Days, Jesus began the antitypical DOA cleansing the heavenly sanctuary in 1844.
• Therefore, when Revelation has Jesus in the Holy Place, the prophecies that are given when He's in there begin to unfold before 1844 because He's not yet entered the Most Holy Place.

7 Churches, Seals, and Trumpets describe how the church is impacted spiritually, politically, and militarily respectively until Jesus returns - they're parallel prophecies given while Jesus in still in the Holy Place, so they must begin to unfold before 1844, which is why popular prophecy teachers like Irvin Baxter who predict "a coming nuclear war that shall kill 1/3 of mankind" are so way of base - they totally ignore the sanctuary link between Daniel and Revelation.

The Sixth Seal describes the time of the antitypical Feast of Trumpets when monarchies are dissolving into democracies and religious freedom spreads and interest in eschatology explodes everywhere. Just as the trumpets were blown to signal the approaching Day of Atonement, so the 1755 Lisbon Earthquake, the 1780 Dark Day and Blood Moon, and the 1833 Falling Stars signaled that Jesus was about to move from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place and begin cleansing the heavenly sanctuary followed by the return of Jesus. People owe my church a debt of gratitude for overthrowing the prevailing false teaching that the church was "entering the 1,000 years of peace, after which Jesus will come".

Who is on earth when the 7th Seal is opened?

That's when Jesus comes in glory - the righteous dead rise, followed by the righteous living, while the wicked drop dead all over the Earth.

Who is on earth when the Trumpets sound?

They're parallel to the Churches and Seals for reasons given.

If you claim one continent was broken up into what we have today, and the mountains were formed in one day, what does the 6th Seal do in seconds?

The Flood happened in 25th century B.C., while the Churches, Seals, and Trumpets are A.D. - there is no correlation.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

These events were the antitypical fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets announcing the soon coming 19th century DOA when Jesus would move from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place.

You don't think God could put all the continents back into a single continent, and remove the mountains into smaller "hills" in a few seconds? While not killing a single human?

Why would He do such a thing? Destroying the Earth with the Flood is supposed to leave evidence of a former judgment so that we can be reminded of a future coming judgment and get ready - putting everything back together is counter intuitive to that.

Yet you accept a human explanation over the 40 days it took to lift the ark up to the tops of the known "hills"? In a judgment that was supposed to kill every last human on earth, accept those in the ark.

Why not? The violence of the Flood was horrendous. The fountains of the great deep burst forth, the windows of heaven were opened, massive fossil-producing turbidites that buried many whales together UPRIGHT, geology shows us the deep scarring of the Earth as massive boulders hundreds of tons in weight were rolled along by the waters like beach balls - it was a CATASTROPHE like no other.

The point of the Second Coming and subsequent Day of the Lord is not to kill off all the wicked. In fact it is to give them a chance to keep repenting, even if they don't ever repent. In one of the Trumpets, they want to die, and may even try, but cannot. The point is to remove souls from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Whoa...the words "But the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements shall melt with fervent heat" says it all: Jesus comes back in glory to the delight of the righteous and the destruction of the wicked.

None of that changes the fact, that the 6th Seal is the surprise, thief in the night moment, when all are claiming peace and safety, and in seconds they have a totally different earth as a single continent, and everything thing they hold dear has been burned up.

No, according to the prophetic timeline, we're now living in between Revelation 6:13-14. Verse 14 is when the 7 Last Plagues begin to fall just before Jesus empties heaven and comes with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

Not a drawn out Flood of water. No verse says it is going to take 24 hours for the 6th Seal to happen. That is not what the phrase Day of the Lord means.

The point is not to cause chaos, yet the state of mind will be chaotic on that day. The point is to restore the earth to the way God intended it to be.

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

That wrath won't be over in 24 hours either. The great day of His wrath is not the same phrase as the Day of the Lord. And neither means 24 hours. Both "days" come with a lot of quick and sudden destruction. Both "days" play out totally different in meaning. Both "days" come when least expected. But the wrath part has to be accomplished before the Day of the Lord can start.

Case in point. When Moses led Israel out of Egypt the Day of deliverance started with a rejection. They were not out of Egypt and in the promised land in 24 hours. In fact after 40 years, not many including Moses even arrived, who started the journey. Probably only Joshua and Caleb.

The Day of the Lord comes. But there is a process of wrath before it can start, and few will make it through to the "promised land". Those last ones only get there by having their heads chopped off as a testimony to Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure why you want to connect a B.C. Flood with prophecies that take place far into the future from then.

 

[Phoneman777]

Question is, did God do the destroying or were there other forces at work? If that is the case, they've pulled a clever stunt by giving God the blame.......and to cap it off, have it recorded in such a way that it enters the annuls known as 'God's Word'

The 'Word of God' which I have come to know, the one described in the first chapter of the Gospel of John; his epistle, 1 John 4:7-21 and Revelation 19:13 doesn't sound like one who would drown every living thing on the planet.

There is one however, who is quite willing to pull stuff like that off.....and blame the innocent.

I'm pretty sure God's own hand of judgment was against the Earth during the Flood ("I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the Earth...).

 

[Timtofly]

Why would He do such a thing? Destroying the Earth with the Flood is supposed to leave evidence of a former judgment so that we can be reminded of a future coming judgment and get ready - putting everything back together is counter intuitive to that.

There is no more judgment like the Trumpets after the 7th Trumpet is finished.

God puts the earth back to the original form to declare there will be no more global punishment.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not sure why you want to connect a B.C. Flood with prophecies that take place far into the future from then.

Jesus did. Should probably take that up with Jesus, if that is an issue.

 

[Phoneman777]

There is no more judgment like the Trumpets after the 7th Trumpet is finished.

God puts the earth back to the original form to declare there will be no more global punishment.

The 6th Trumpet started sounding while Jesus is still ministering in the Holy Place, which means it started sounding BEFORE 1844. The Seventh Trumpet has the Ark of the Covenant seen, which means Jesus has moved into the Most Holy Place...therefore, the Seventh Trumpet coincides with the Day of Atonement.

BTW, Scripture says "And the Lord God shall blow the Trumpet" which is the "Trump of God" Paul speaks about in 1 Thess.