So answer the question, is Christ the one who is ruling and currently putting his enemies under his feet?
Those who are watching will understand the time of the nearness of that day.
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I think clarity is needed here: Christ's sacrifice on the Cross was lifted up to Heaven, where propitiation for sins was made - this was the Gospel.
The Gospel on Earth is something else, because it pertains to the nations of Earth - each nation has its own take on the Cross.
So when people say "is Christ ruling later or is He now?" the answer is 'it depends on which Gospel you are pointing to - is it the Gospel that ended in Heaven, or one of the Gospels that started on Earth?'
The Gospel on Earth is something else, because it pertains to the nations of Earth - each nation has its own take on the Cross.
So when people say "is Christ ruling later or is He now?" the answer is 'it depends on which Gospel you are pointing to - is it the Gospel that ended in Heaven, or one of the Gospels that started on Earth?'
Davy
Well-Known Member
Maybe you ought to read what Apostle Paul actually said in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 again, for he said when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" shall come upon them.
1 Thess 5:1-3
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV
Do you know where Apostle Paul got that above idea from? It was first written in the Old Testament prophets, like the Book of Isaiah. Even with 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the 'change' on the "last trump" at the "twinkling of an eye" is about that time of "sudden destruction" along with Christ's coming in the clouds. God used the idea of it occurring "at an instant suddenly." (Isaiah 29)
That future event on the last day of this world, the "day of the Lord", shall not harm Christ's faithful Church that will still be alive on earth. Just as Meshach, Shadrach, and Abed-nego came out of the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and their clothes didn't even smell of smoke, because Christ was with them in that furnace, same for Christ's faithful Church on the day of His coming when God's "consuming fire" will burn man's works off this earth on that "day of the Lord".
Yeah, I well know the "day of the Lord" is NOT the time of "great tribulation". But man's false Pre-trib Rapture instead thinks it is. And that's my point.
The "great tribulation" happens first, and then Jesus' coming afterwards to end it is when the "day of the Lord" will happen. Jesus said in Rev.16:15 that He comes "as a thief". That "day of the Lord" is when Peter showed God's "consuming fire" will burn man's works off this earth (2 Peter 3:10).
Nope. Jesus was not talking about the "great tribulation" time as the hour and day of His future coming. You contradicted yourself.
The day and hour of Lord Jesus' future coming is what the "day of the Lord" time is. The end of this present world happens on that day of His future coming on that "day of the Lord". And that also means it is what will destroy the armies that come out of the northern quarters upon Israel on the last day of this world. It will be the Revelation 19 coming with His army from Heaven.
You don't have to worry about confusing me, I know what God's written Word says, and I keep It. Most don't actually understand what the time of "great tribulation" is going to be about. If you read books by Pre-trib Rapture authors like Hal Lindsay or Time LaHaye, you'll be even more... confused about it, and further away from what God's Word actually teaches about it.
Like God showed in His Word when Jesus said we'd hear of wars and rumors of war, to not be troubled because those (wars) must be, BUT THE END IS NOT YET. So what is the opposite... of those wars and rumors of war? A time of world peace. And that is what the Daniel 8 prophecy shows for the end, that the coming Antichrist will destroy many using PEACE. And craft will even prosper at his hand...
Dan 8:23-25
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
KJV
That's about the final Antichrist/false-Messiah that is to come at the very end of this world for the time of "great tribulation".
For the majority of the world, he will be presenting to them a time of peace and prosperity, not war, not famine, not pestilences, not earthquakes, etc. Those wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences, etc. are NOT for the "great tribulation" time. They are for the time Jesus called the "beginning of sorrows" just PRIOR to the time of "great tribulation".
So that's how I 'know' when someone refers to the time of "great tribulation" like it will be a time of utter chaos, war, famines, earthquakes, i.e., basically all the bad stuff in Hal Lindsay's books, then it tells me they lack deeper Bible study about it.
Whoah, whoah! The only ones that go into the "lake of fire" on the day of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord" is the "false prophet" and "beast", and those are actually only ROLES that Satan himself will play during the "great tribulation". And this is what is actually written in God's Word, for only Satan and his angels so far have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire". The Great Day of God's Judgment doesn't occur until a "thousand years" AFTER Jesus' 2nd coming, as written in Revelation 20. What you are suggesting is man's false Amil doctrine which crept into the Church during the 2nd century A.D. when the pagan Gnostics crept in and mixed Greek pagan doctrines in with Christian doctrine.
I think you are a little mixed up on the meaning of what Lord Jesus said that His Kingdom wouldn't come with observation. Jesus wasn't pointing that to His future literal... physical... Kingdom that is still come when He returns. He was pointing to His Kingdom of The Spirit which came at His death and resurrection...
Luke 17:20-21
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!' or, 'lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV
The Greek word for "within" is entos, which literally means 'within' or 'inside', like location.
Jesus was pointing to His Kingdom by The Holy Spirit, which is literally inside... our flesh shell by our own spirit/soul being "born again" of The Spirit.
John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
KJV
That is why Jesus told the blind Pharisees that His Kingdom does not come with observation, i.e., by the physical eyes.
The question that the Pharisees asked Jesus (in Luke 17) was about WHEN the kingdom of God shall appear. He didn't get specific in when it will come, only how it will come. He continued in his answer by connecting it to "Even thus shall it be when the Son of man shall be revealed in verse 29ff. This is where he talks about one taken and one left. This parallel passage is found in the account of the Olivet discourse (all 3 synoptics). And in the Luke 21 account he tells us WHEN the kingdom of God shall appear.
Luk 21:31 KJV So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
The kingdom of God is not found within us. It was among them, via the king. 1Cor 15 states that the inheritance of the kingdom comes when mortals put on immortality and corruptibles put on incorruption... something that has not happened yet.
Luke 21:31 contains a slightly different spin on when the events surrounding the return of Jesus [regarding the parable of the fig tree]. Matthew and Mark say "that day is near", whereas Luke says that the kingdom of God is near. Why? It is based on what Luke includes (rather, doesn't include) in his list of all these things that precede him saying "the kingdom of God is near" versus Matt and Mark saying that day is near.
Luke does not include the gathering of the elect (at the sound of the great trumpet) as found in Matt and Mark. What does that tell us? The initiation of the gathering of the elect is when the kingdom arrives, and this is what is found with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. That is what we learn from Luke's reckoning. And because Matt and Mark equate "that day is near" with AFTER the inclusion of the gathering of the elect, this means that what is near is something that occurs after the initiation of the gathering, ala the kingdom has come. "That day" then can refer to either or both of two different things:
1. Jesus's coming, and
2. The time of greatest trouble, aka
2b. The time of Jacob's trouble.
In essence, the kingdom has come, but we are still waiting for the coming of the king. This doesn't mean that the parousia has not taken place. The parousia is not simply the removal of the church prior to the arrival of the kingdom. It is Jesus taking the church (in clouds of glory) TO THE FATHER, where he then is given the kingdoms of this world, Daniel 7:13,14
Dan 7:13-14 KJV 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
The 2nd appearance of Christ in Hebrews:
Heb 9:28 KJV So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
IS NOT talking about His 2nd appearance on earth, but is talking about the next time he shall appear before the Father. The first time, he became our high priest. The 2nd time will be to bring bodily salvation to those who are looking for his appearing... THE CHURCH! I gotta go.
Be Blessed
The PuP
Davy
Well-Known Member
So now you want to argue... over the simplicity that Jesus showed there in Luke 17:21 that "the kingdom of God is within you"? Don't you realize that's the kind of thing the Pharisees were guilty of, with straining at a gnat? Do you even realize what Jesus meant by straining at a gnat?
Lord Jesus was pointing to His Kingdom of The SPIRIT in Luke 17:21, it being "within" the believer by The Holy Spirit. Today, Christ's literal PHYSICAL Kingdom is not yet manifest here on earth. So I hope you're not one of those deceived 'Kingdom Now' folks who think Lord Jesus is ruling over all nations already today.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm done talking to you, since you so easily want to leave... the actual written Bible Scripture in favor of your own trumped up false doctrines of the flesh with your directly CONTRADICTING CHRIST'S OWN WORDS.
Luke 17:20-21
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here!' or, 'lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV
Scriptures show that the The kingdom of God has not come, which contradicts your beliefs, not mine.
Cya
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