Tis Is The Season!!!

[Eccl.12:13]

Tis Is The Season​

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Let's think about life here on earth BEFORE we had what is now known as Christmas!

People were celebrating the shortest day of the year right around Dec 25th.

People were giving honor to their sun god right around Dec. 25th.

People were using mistletoe, burning Yule-logs, bringing holly into their homes, placing evergreens outside their dwellings, cutting and bringing trees into their homes ALL to worship their god, and all around this time of year.....what we now call, Dec. 25th.

As a matter of fact, God gives us a very detailed description of one such practice mentioned above;

Jer.10
[1] Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
[2] Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
[3] For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
[4] They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
[5] They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Is not God amazing!! He described the most recognized act, which is connected with the popular holiday of ALL time, to the letter, thousands of years early. Letting us know, way ahead of time, this is something we are NOT to observe or practice!

Now let's fast forward to a possible time in the future;

What if Jesus Christ was to return, sometime in the future, right around this time of year....right around Dec. 25th? What would He find?

Well, and I'm sure to His amazement, He would find so called CHRISTAINS doing the exact SAMETHING as the pagans of His day once did to serve their gods, at the SAME time of year and with the SAME items!!!

Kissing under the mistletoe!
Exchanging gifts!
Decorating with Holly, Yule-logs and Wreaths!
Cutting a tree down, bringing it into your house and decorating it with silver and gold!
And ALL of these things being done right around Dec.25[sup]th[/sup]!

Is this separating yourselves and avoiding the appearance of evil? Or have you made fellowship with those things that are considered an abomination to our God by attempting to cover them with, “… another Jesus, whom we have not preached,…”

　
Do you think Jesus would ask WHY?

Do you think He would ask, “Why are you doing the very thing I destroyed the other nations for doing?”
“Where did you get such instructions?”
“Was it from one of my disciples or apostles?”
“Did you not read Jer.10 where I said, "Learn not the way of the heathen"“
“Did you not read my other sayings?”

　
“Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

"When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do."

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial?….Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."

“Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.”

“Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.”

“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.”


“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;”

“Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.”

“……brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”

“For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.”

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”

And if all of the above scriptures were not enough to let you know that God does NOT want us following in the footsteps of those nations He abhors, He leaves us this;

“"Abstain from all appearance of evil."

That would include things current AND those in the PAST!!!

Why on earth would someone think it is NOW ok to use the exact items pagans used, and STILL use, to worship their idols, and now use those same items, to try to say they are worshiping the true and living GOD?

Have you ever really asked yourself WHY am I doing this?

Why AM I bringing this tree into my house?
Why AM I putting up all of these lights?
Why all the Yule-logs, Holly and mistletoe?
Why am I spending ALL of this money?
Why am I doing this ONLY at this time of year?
And HOW does all of this relate to worshiping God?

Does God’s Holy word give any such direction for observing this day or for doing ANY of the actions billions participate in every year?

Tis IS the season…….....but WHOSE?


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[deprofundis]

“……brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.”

“"Abstain from all appearance of evil."

That would include things current AND those in the PAST!!!

Why on earth would someone think it is NOW ok to use the exact items pagans used, and STILL use, to worship their idols, and now use those same items, to try to say they are worshiping the true and living GOD?

What is not true, honest, just, pure, lovely, etc. about a tree, a sprig of plant, or any other tradition? In what way do they have the "appearance of evil?" I have never looked at a pine tree as malevolent, myself. Absent their former religious significance, which they are in Christian usage, they're nothing more than cultural traditions, which early Christianity adopted so that pagans could convert without abandoning all those among their long-standing cultural traditions which didn't contradict Christian faith. What wrong is there in decorating a tree to honour and praise the birth of Jesus Christ? Moreover, is any action practiced by another religion necessarily sinful if one is a Christian? Is it a sin to be a vegetarian because other religions advocate vegetarianism? Is it a sin to pray because other religions have traditions of prayer? Or, more specifically, should one always note the location of Mecca so as to not pray facing it, thus emulating Islamic tradition? Is the Cross of St. Peter an unacceptable symbol because Satanists use the same image with another meaning? It is the intention behind a symbol that counts, I believe, not the symbol itself.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

"...[/size]I believe..."

And there in lies the problem. It is not what you believe that matters. What matters, and more so WHO it matters to, is the question at hand! As I asked in this lesson;


Do you think Jesus would ask WHY?
Do you think He would ask, “Why are you doing the very thing I destroyed the other nations for doing?”
“Where did you get such instructions?”
“Was it from one of my disciples or apostles?”
“Did you not read Jer.10 where I said, "Learn not the way of the heathen"“
“Did you not read my other sayings?”

Do you think Jesus would say, "It's ok to use those pagan items and connect them to MY name?

Why on earth would someone think it is NOW ok to use the exact items pagans used, and STILL use, to worship their idols, and now use those same items, to try to say they are worshiping the true and living GOD?

Do you really think Jesus would want His name associated with things once used to worship pagan gods?


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[TexUs]

Do you really think Jesus would want His name associated with things once used to worship pagan gods?

I guess that means we shouldn't clap, use stringed instruments, or percussion instruments, or anything else to worship because it was also done for pagan gods?

Nay what matters is the object of worship.

Do some people worship the object of retail? Sure. Do some people worship the holiday and not the object of the holiday? Sure.

It all comes down to worshiping the creation and not the Creator, aka, idolatry. Is that what we as Christians that know the purpose are doing? I'm not.


You'd serve yourself well to actually read the context of your quoted text.
[sup]1[/sup] Hear what the LORD says to you, people of Israel. [sup]2[/sup]is is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
[sup]3[/sup] For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
[sup]4[/sup] They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
[sup]5[/sup] Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

[sup]6[/sup] No one is like you, LORD;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
[sup]7[/sup] Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

[sup]8[/sup] They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
[sup]9[/sup] Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.
[sup]10[/sup] But the LORD is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

[sup]11[/sup] “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”

What's the focus on? The act, or the object?

 

[deprofundis]

And there in lies the problem. It is not what you believe that matters.

Are you truly saying that what I believe does matter, simply whether I put up decorations? That the gates of Heaven open for me were I to renounce my faith in Christ if I also stopped hanging mistletoe? Otherwise, what I believe must matter; Jesus knows believers, and knows who worship false idols; I'd imagine He can tell the difference between people who set up symbolic decorations to honor Him with their beauty and those who set up idols to worship. He hears to whom (or to what) one is praying.

Do you think Jesus would ask WHY?

Yes, probably. That is, provided he didn't already know and understand.

Do you think He would ask, “Why are you doing the very thing I destroyed the other nations for doing?”

I'm neither placing another God before him nor worshiping a false idol, so, no, I don't think he would ask that. Jesus knows a believer, and He knows what s/he believes.

“Where did you get such instructions?”
“Was it from one of my disciples or apostles?"

His disciples did encourage us to honour, cherish, and celebrate Him.

“Did you not read Jer.10 where I said, "Learn not the way of the heathen"“

Is he also going to ask this question to everyone using electricity, the invention of an atheist? Everyone who's ever driven in a car using the heathen-made wheel? Anyone speaking a language descended from heathen tongues? You're applying your interpretation solely to Christmas to decorations. If to "learn the way of the heathen" is simply to follow any aspect of heathen life or culture, we're all guilty of doing it. I would interpret the passage to mean that one is not to follow the example of the heathen and worship idols.

“Did you not read my other sayings?”

All of them.

Do you think Jesus would say, "It's ok to use those pagan items and connect them to MY name?

How is a tree pagan? Moreover, how is there any object on this earth which is not connected to the name of Jesus? If the item isn't used in worship of a pagan god, it's not a pagan item, it's just an item. I assure you, in the Roman Empire, many, many pagans were crucified, and the crucifix was a tool of the pagan Romans. Yet, Christians still hold that as a symbol in the name of Christ, do they not?

Why on earth would someone think it is NOW ok to use the exact items pagans used, and STILL use, to worship their idols, and now use those same items, to try to say they are worshiping the true and living GOD?

What about all the questions I asked earlier, which you summarily ignored; "Is it a sin to be a vegetarian because other religions advocate vegetarianism? Is it a sin to pray because other religions have traditions of prayer? Or, more specifically, should one always note the location of Mecca so as to not pray facing it, thus emulating Islamic tradition? Is the Cross of St. Peter an unacceptable symbol because Satanists use the same image with another meaning?" Many Hindu and Buddhists are vegetarian, so is it "learning the way of the heathen" to be a vegetarian? Many pagan religions had prayer, is it "learning the way of the heathen" to pray? Satanists (mis)use a Christian symbol to show their opposition to Christ, so is that now and forever a symbol of Satan that no Christian may ever use?

Do you really think Jesus would want His name associated with things once used to worship pagan gods?

As I explained earlier, most things have once been used to worship pagan gods; should churches no longer have music, candles, incense, wine, etc. because each was once used to worship pagan gods? Can Christians not write poetry in praise of their Lord, because pagans had traditions of poetic worship? I think Jesus would want His name associated with kindness, love, and truthfulness, not with any random object or symbol, regardless of its origins, that wasn't used to represent those things. I think it would give Him joy to see an innocent kiss under the mistletoe, or someone taking time to make something beautiful in His honor. It is a way for His followers to show their love for Him and celebrate His birth.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

[font="arial][size="3"]What's the focus on? The act, or the object?[/size][/font]

Ok....then....let's reason for a moment;

Do you think Jesus would now approve and endorse the very objects He said NOT to use?

Do you believe He would say it is now ok to use, even though you are not worshiping the objects, and connect His name to it?

Do you think He would be ok, finding those that call themselves 'Christians' doing the same as the pagans of His day were doing? At the same time of year AND with the same objects? Do you think these 'acts' are now ok because we have re-dressed and re-named them?

Do you think He will warm up to the idea of using the silver and gold decorated tree, wreaths, yule-logs mistle-toe and all of the other pagan associated items?

Do you think Jesus will now CHANGE HIS MIND?

You asked the following question;

I guess that means we shouldn't clap, use stringed instruments, or percussion instruments, or anything else to worship because it was also done for pagan gods?

Well....let's just read and see how God views both objects and actions. Let's read how they are received by Him based upon their use. Readers of the bible must understand, EVERYTHING God made is good. But when those things are used toward evil or for evil, God does not want anything to do with them.

God made gold and silver, BUT;

Num.33
[52] Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

He still did not want anything to do with gold or silver that was used for idols. Notice He didn't even recommend remelting and reusing! God told them to DESTROY ALL!!

Now....should we clap our hands to glorify God? Of course. Now how do you think God would feel about those same hands being clapped for something that would edify evil?

Should we play stringed instruments to praise God? Why not? But do you think the same stringed instrument played for satan would be approved by God?

Understand it can be the ACT, the OBJECT or even those doing BOTH! Let's read this example God gave us......

Josh.6
[16] And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.

Now let's read what God considered cursed. Let's see if it was just objects, acts performed with those objects or did it also include those that performed the acts with the objects....

[17] And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

God said ALL that was within the city was accursed.......all except;

[19] But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the LORD: they shall come into the treasury of the LORD.

So the silver and gold that was NOT used for idols were fine.....but......

[21] And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Please note that sheep and ox are 'clean' foods. Foods that could be eaten by the nation of Israel. But God wanted nothing to do with none of it! It may ALL have been used for just food, but God, as He tells us by His own words, "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Let's continue, let's read what God considered worthy to save......

[24] And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein.....

So....to answer your question;

What's the focus on? The act, or the object?

ANYTHING that is used in a way God did not intend for it to be used and is not used to glorify Him can be an object that God finds an abomination; it could be an object, an act, a beast of the field or even God's own creation.....MAN!!!!



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[deprofundis]

So to use a tree in a pagan ritual is sinful, to use a tree to celebrate the birth of Christ is good. It follows your own reasoning, even.I really fail to see the problem.

 

[TexUs]

Do you think Jesus will now CHANGE HIS MIND?

That presupposes that God was mad because of they things they used, not because of the object of their attention, and this is not the case at all.

Just READ THE TEXT.

Num.33
[52] Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

He still did not want anything to do with gold or silver that was used for idols. Notice He didn't even recommend remelting and reusing! God told them to DESTROY ALL!!

It couldn't possibly be that God was making a point...

ANYTHING that is used in a way God did not intend for it to be used and is not used to glorify Him can be an object that God finds an abomination; it could be an object, an act, a beast of the field or even God's own creation.....MAN!!!!

This is true, it's just a pity you don't apply this logic to your original post.
Why were trees created? To glorify God. How did the pagans use them? As a false idol. So they were not using it to glorify God which means it was bad.
Why were trees created? To glorify God. How do we use trees today? In remembrance of Christ's birth and to glorify God. Our purpose of the trees is to bring glory to God, which pleases Him.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

This is true, it's just a pity you don't apply this logic to your original post.
Why were trees created? To glorify God. How did the pagans use them? As a false idol. So they were not using it to glorify God which means it was bad.
Why were trees created? To glorify God. How do we use trees today? In remembrance of Christ's birth and to glorify God. Our purpose of the trees is to bring glory to God, which pleases Him.

Really? Tress were created to 'glorify' God? And we use those same trees to remember the birth of Christ and to bring glory to God?

And this can be proved, any part of it, where in God's word?

God made trees for MAN, not for God's glory! And what did man do with the very thing God made for man's use? Let's read...

"Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen."

Again..please answer the questions....

Do you think Jesus would now approve and endorse the very objects He said NOT to use?

Do you believe He would say it is now ok to use, even though you are not worshiping the objects, and connect His name to it?

Do you think He would be ok, finding those that call themselves 'Christians' doing the same as the pagans of His day were doing? At the same time of year AND with the same objects? Do you think these 'acts' are now ok because we have re-dressed and re-named them?

Do you think He will warm up to the idea of using the silver and gold decorated tree, wreaths, yule-logs mistle-toe and all of the other pagan associated items?

Do you think Jesus will now CHANGE HIS MIND?

It's pretty simple really. Either you think Jesus will say it's now ok or He will not!

You either think Jesus has changed His mind on the topic or you do not think He has changed His mind!

Yes! I think Jesus WOULD endose the use of such objects and ALL of the acts associated with them.

Or,

NO! I do not think Jesus would approve of such acts!

What's the problem? Do you want me to go first?

Well here is my answer....

NO WAY would Jesus now say, "Go ahead and do what the pagens did to worship their god and now do those same act's of worship and just rename them and say it is now to glorify me!"

I gotta ask... Would YOU even allow something like that?

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So to use a tree in a pagan ritual is sinful, to use a tree to celebrate the birth of Christ is good. It follows your own reasoning, even.I really fail to see the problem.

And just where are we instructed to celebrate the birth of Christ? And to do it with a tree?

My reasoning is as follows, "Ask no questions and follow orders!"

"Learn not the way of the heathen..."

"Abstain from all appearance of evil"

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial?….Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."


It looks as though some of those on the forum has gone the other way....

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"

Again..please answer the questions....

Do you think Jesus would now approve and endorse the very objects He said NOT to use?

Do you believe He would say it is now ok to use, even though you are not worshiping the objects, and connect His name to it?

Do you think He would be ok, finding those that call themselves 'Christians' doing the same as the pagans of His day were doing? At the same time of year AND with the same objects? Do you think these 'acts' are now ok because we have re-dressed and re-named them?

Do you think He will warm up to the idea of using the silver and gold decorated tree, wreaths, yule-logs mistle-toe and all of the other pagan associated items?

Do you think Jesus will now CHANGE HIS MIND?

It's pretty simple really. Either you think Jesus will say it's now ok or He will not!

You either think Jesus has changed His mind on the topic or you do not think He has changed His mind!

Yes! I think Jesus WOULD endose the use of such objects and ALL of the acts associated with them.

Or,

NO! I do not think Jesus would approve of such acts!



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[TexUs]

Really? Tress were created to 'glorify' God? And we use those same trees to remember the birth of Christ and to bring glory to God?

And this can be proved, any part of it, where in God's word?

Romans 1.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him
Colossians 1.
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Corinthians 10
So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.


Creation was and is created by, through, in, and for GOD! Not us. It's all to his glory.
Who, exactly, do you think is serving who?

Do you think Jesus would now approve and endorse the very objects He said NOT to use?

I wouldn't know considering he never said not to use them. He didn't say not to use them, he said not to make idols of them.

Do you think He would be ok, finding those that call themselves 'Christians' doing the same as the pagans of His day were doing?

As with everything in all creation, done to the Glory of God it's perfectly OK. Done to the glory of something else is not OK.
If I help the poor to garner myself better social standing or to make myself feel good, that's bad. If I do it out of love for the person and commandment's of God, it's good.
Note: they're both THE SAME EXACT ACT. The difference is the purpose in which you do it.

Romans 14
Everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Do you think Jesus will now CHANGE HIS MIND?

Nope. I don't. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want them used as idols then and doesn't want them used as idols now.

And just where are we instructed to celebrate the birth of Christ? And to do it with a tree?

Do you celebrate Easter?

 

[deprofundis]

I think TexUs has addressed a lot of what I have to say, quite eloquently, but there are a few other points I'd like to bring up, as well.

]Do you think He would be ok, finding those that call themselves 'Christians' doing the same as the pagans of His day were doing? At the same time of year AND with the same objects? Do you think these 'acts' are now ok because we have re-dressed and re-named them?

What of those work the fields? Christians plant in the spring and harvest in the fall, like pagans, do they not? Does Jesus oppose agriculture, then? We dress more warmly in the winter, as I'm sure pagans did and still do, so do I blaspheme with each button I fasten on my coat?

[/size]

][/size]Do you think He will warm up to the idea of using the silver and gold decorated tree, wreaths, yule-logs mistle-toe and all of the other pagan associated items?

You still refuse to answer my question in response to this, concerning the innumerable other items and acts that could be said to have pagan associations, but which are now used in the name of Christ. Do you find it blasphemous to use wine in church because pagan rituals used wine?

][/size]Do you think Jesus will now CHANGE HIS MIND?

It's pretty simple really. Either you think Jesus will say it's now ok or He will not!

Or, we do not believe Jesus changed His mind and He will say, then as now, that acts taken to honor and glorify Him are "okay," but the same acts for the glory of any other, are not.

][/size]Yes! I think Jesus WOULD endose the use of such objects and ALL of the acts associated with them.

Or,

NO! I do not think Jesus would approve of such acts!

This is a false dichotomy. Why would Jesus have to endorse every act associated with an object to endorse any? Jesus does not endorse murdering a man with a hammer, of course, but by your logic, that means he does not endorse building a house or any other act that could be taken with a hammer.

][/size]NO WAY would Jesus now say, "Go ahead and do what the pagens did to worship their god and now do those same act's of worship and just rename them and say it is now to glorify me!"

So you don't believe Jesus would condone prayer? Pagans prayed to their gods, Christians do the same act to worship and glorify Christ.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

So you don't believe Jesus would condone prayer? Pagans prayed to their gods, Christians do the same act to worship and glorify Christ.[/size]

Are you really kidding me or do you just don't get it? First of all I answered your questions;

"Now....should we clap our hands to glorify God? Of course. Now how do you think God would feel about those same hands being clapped for something that would edify evil?

Should we play stringed instruments to praise God? Why not? But do you think the same stringed instrument played for satan would be approved by God?

Understand it can be the ACT, the OBJECT or even those doing BOTH!

The act of prayer to God; GOOD!

The act of prayer to anything else; BAD!


Let's grow up here! Planting in the spring; harvest in the fall, not using a hammer because the hammer can be used to kill?

Come on! All of those issues have been addressed in the scriptures given!


Now back to the questions presented;

"Do you think Christ would be ok, finding those that call themselves 'Christians', doing the same as the pagans of His day were doing? At the same time of year AND with the same objects?" Yes or No?

"Do you think Christ would see these 'acts' as now ok because we have re-dressed and re-named them from their pagan origins?" Yes or No?

"Do you think Jesus will now ok the idea of using trees decorated with silver and gold to represent His birth? Yes or No?

"Do you think Jesus would want His name associated with those things that were once associated with pagans like wreath, yule-logs and mistle-toe and holly? Yes or No?

Gods word said NOT to learn the ways of the heathens! How simple is that? He did not say, "As long as you do it to glorify me it's ok!

Just as God showed us in the scriptures, Gold and silver was used in His temple, but the gold and silver used in idol temples He had destroyed? Why do you think that is? The gold or silver had not changed? It remains the same to this day. But do you think God today, would take gold or silver that was used to make an idol, and have it remelted to be used in HIs temple?

Let's just use some common sense here!

If you want to bring a tree into your house and put presents around it and hang mistle-toe and holly and wreaths around your house around the same time as the pagans of Christ day did then go ahead!

But please do not try to pawn those pagan acts as something God said we should do!



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[Eccl.12:13]

Do you celebrate Easter?

Really? Another pagan feast re-named and re-dressed? The same items used by pagans! At the same time of year as the pagans! With NO word in the scripture saying this is to be performed!


Next you will be telling me that you really CAN get 72hrs from Fri. evening to Sun. morning! And why will you say this? Because someone told you that the "Jews" of the day really measured time in a different way than they do today. And you will totally ignore the words of Jesus Himself.....

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

And how many hours did Jesus say are in a day? I'll let Him tell us.....

"Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world."

Now unless the approx. 24hr day was different then than now that would leave 12hrs for nighttime!

So that gives us (3) 12hr. days periods and (3) 12hr. night periods.......but this, I'm sure we will address this in the spring.....just in time for "planting"!!!



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[TexUs]

You conveniently ignore all the Biblical evidence and responses I've posted and keep asking the same questions over and over and over.

I and anyone else who can READ THE TEXT ITSELF, IN FULL CONTEXT can clearly see what God was mad about.





God called creation GOOD. Trees are GOOD. Gold is GOOD. Sex is GOOD.
What is not good is our ABUSE of such things. Trees as idols. Gold as idols. Sex outside of marriage. Using things outside of God's prescribed order is what's BAD, the things themselves are not.

 

[Lute]

the Christmas tree is pointless in origin and modern use. i do not see one good reason to use it to represent Christ or any atribute of Christ. that Christ does not already represent in and of himself through his own word and actions. therefore a Christmas tree in my eyes is an idol. if you want to put something up around the holidays that represents Christ. i think we should be putting up Scripture around our homes. not a bunch of made up un-biblical junk. or we ourselves should be the object in our home that best represents Christ. in our words and actions. not that we should be bringing attention to ourselves. but that the attention that is given to us because of our different ways of doing things should always scream wow Christ really is the main focus of that household.

 

[Lute]

i also look at cane an able. cane brought forth a sacrifice for the Lord. Even though he came forth with a good heart an good intentions. his offering was rejected. because it was not what God required. and he was guilty of idolatry. that does not mean what his sacrifice consisted of was in itself evil. or even the intension of his heart that was evil. the only reason it was rejected is that it was not what God required him to do. it was not what he asked. and when i look at the Christmas tree. i say this is not what God asks us to do. and when we are not perfect and are always screwing up. not doing what we are suppose to. and we start doing something that isnt even required for anything... that is a slippery slope. and is the reason i avoid it.

 

[TexUs]

i do not see one good reason to use it to represent Christ or any atribute of Christ.

So Christ doesn't hold creation together?
God isn't revealed in creation?

You'd have to depart from these Biblical truths in order to make such a statement.

i also look at cane an able. cane brought forth a sacrifice for the Lord. Even though he came forth with a good heart an good intentions. his offering was rejected. because it was not what God required.

Good thing that pesky sacrificial system was eliminated with the Ultimate Sacrifice, huh?

and when i look at the Christmas tree. i say this is not what God asks us to do.

He doesn't ask us to drive vehicles, either.
I guess by doing that you're an idolater. See how ridiculous that argument is?

 

[Lute]

So Christ doesn't hold creation together?
God isn't revealed in creation?

You'd have to depart from these Biblical truths in order to make such a statement.



Good thing that pesky sacrificial system was eliminated with the Ultimate Sacrifice, huh?


He doesn't ask us to drive vehicles, either.
I guess by doing that you're an idolater. See how ridiculous that argument is?

your first quote an response dont really make any sense. i dont see why we need anything other the Christ to represent Christ. he represents himself in his word and his actions when he was here on earth.

as for the second quote an response. the sacrificial system was not eliminated. the requirement of death and separation from the father was eliminated as required payment. we still need to be a living sacrifice.

as for the third quote an response. God does not ask us to ever travel? i do not see any analogy in this rebuttal. cars are for transportation. they do not represent anything an were not made to represent anything but a way to get from point a to point b. but i do not disagree that cars can be idols.

 

[deprofundis]

Are you really kidding me or do you just don't get it?

I don't think I get it. I'm following your logic to the natural conclusion. If acts of worship practiced by pagans cannot also be practiced by Christians to glorify God, then because pagans prayed, Christians cannot pray.

First of all I answered your questions;

No, you didn't. You mentioned nothing about the Cross of St. Peter, the use of a cross as a pagan symbol, the burning of candles or incense at pagan rituals, consuming wine at pagan rituals, etc. All of these things are heavily ingrained in both pagan and Christian traditions (except the Cross of St. Peter, which is used as a symbol for Christianity, by showing how one is unworthy of Jesus, and as a symbol of Satanism), yet you mention no qualm with any of them, or any reason they are exceptions.

The act of prayer to God; GOOD!

The act of prayer to anything else; BAD!

So:
Glorifying God with a decorated tree: Good
Glorifying anything else with a decorated tree: Bad.
Right?

Let's grow up here! Planting in the spring; harvest in the fall, not using a hammer because the hammer can be used to kill?

I'm not making these arguments, I'm taking yours to their natural logical extent. You said that if an object can be used for a purpose of which Jesus does not approve, he would not approve of its use for any purpose. I'm saying then we can't use anything which could be made into a weapon for any purpose.

I actually did answer your questions, so I will not do so again.

Gods word said NOT to learn the ways of the heathens! How simple is that? He did not say, "As long as you do it to glorify me it's ok!

Yes, but how literally you take that saying can vary. You can either take it literally, and say that no Christian must learn any ways of the heathens, including how to make a wheel (invented by heathens), agriculture (invented by heathens), or electricity (invented by atheists), or can you assume he meant not to follow their faith and morals.
[/size]

Just as God showed us in the scriptures, Gold and silver was used in His temple, but the gold and silver used in idol temples He had destroyed? Why do you think that is? The gold or silver had not changed? It remains the same to this day. But do you think God today, would take gold or silver that was used to make an idol, and have it remelted to be used in HIs temple?

So you're saying it's okay to use a tree if that exact, particular tree were not used in a pagan ritual? [/size]

 

[TexUs]

your first quote an response dont really make any sense. i dont see why we need anything other the Christ to represent Christ. he represents himself in his word and his actions when he was here on earth.

God didn't need anything more than himself and yet he opted to create us... Why? For his glory.
Romans tells us he reveals his glorious self in creation.
Colossians tells us Christ is IN all creation.

If we keep silent than the rocks shall cry out... creation sings to the glory of God. Everything was made by him, through him, and for him, for his glory.


Once more, it's our perversion of what he's made that's bad. Creation itself is good. To depart from this you'd have to call God a liar and explain to me how what he called good wasn't really good.

as for the second quote an response. the sacrificial system was not eliminated. the requirement of death and separation from the father was eliminated as required payment. we still need to be a living sacrifice.

That has nothing to do with your original statement whatsoever.

as for the third quote an response. God does not ask us to ever travel?

They traveled on ships, boats, donkeys, etc. Nowhere does God tell us to travel by car.
This is simply taking your argument and applying it to something else. Simply because God doesn't tell us to do it doesn't make it bad.

God never commanded us to put on Christmas Pageants, either, I guess those are wicked garbage as well? Grab your pitchforks, head out to the churches!