7angels said:
just a question first. weren't you the one that started that we were to tithe? don't you know the answer to this question on tithing? if i show you where it tells us to tithe are you going to consider the matter with and open mind or are you trying to just stick with your beliefs? there is no reason to show people the truth if they really don't want to believe.
God bless
No, I was not the one that started this. Tithing is a "payment" system and we are not under any payment system in the NT. I have considered what the scriptures teach with an open mind and am open to new arguments if you have any. Tithing in the OT has to do with the Temple and the Sacrifices. These no longer exist. Today, the Lord own 100% of us and all that we have and we walk by the Spirit. We are under no law except the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ and as such, we give as a result of our relationship with the Lord and there is no percentage tied to it. Tithing as it is taught today, is a law.
THE NT IS TOTALLY SILENT ABOUT TITHING.
Also, since the New Covenant did away with the office of the "Priest" and because the New Covenant did away with the practice of sacrifices and offerings, it would be impossible for the the Old Testament law of "tithes and offerings" -- as they were commonly understood -- to be a part of the the practice of NT Christians. Therefore any law of "tithing" would have to be redefined and explained. The practice of "Tithes and Offerings", required the active ministry of the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifices of animals on the altar and many other aspects of Temple worship.
The Old Testament requirement of tithing is definitely a "paying" situation, not a "giving" one. Even the "Offerings" were required. They were not "offerings" in the sense of a spontaneous desire and decision to impart some of your assets to someone else. The OT Offerings were specific requirements of the people that had to be fulfilled according to very specific, detailed rituals carried out by the Levitical Priesthood in the context of Temple worship.
Everyone agrees that you pay something that you
owe. It is a responsibility and a requirement.
It is not a gift. On the other hand, it is equally true that
a gift is not a requirement. A gift is something that you give that you didn't have to give. It is not given because you must. It is not given out of necessity. It is not given under compulsion. Otherwise, it would not be a gift.
It would be a payment.
Let's look at II Corinthians 8 and 9:
Chapter 8
2Cor_8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2Cor_8:2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches
of their liberality.
2Cor_8:3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power
they were willing of themselves;
2Cor_8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
2Cor_8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
2Cor_8:6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun,
so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
2Cor_8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see
that ye abound in this grace also.
2Cor_8:8
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
2Cor_8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
...
2Cor_8:19 And not that only, but who was also
chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
Chapter 9
2Cor_9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Cor_9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Cor 9:8 And God is able to make
all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Cor_9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Cor_9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
2Cor_9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2Cor_9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2Cor_9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this
ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for
your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
2Co_9:14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding
grace of God in you.
2Cor_9:15 Thanks be unto God
for his unspeakable gift.
These passages of scripture are a perfect illustration of the fact that the new covenant is a covenant of
grace,not a covenant of
law. The Apostle Paul, in writing this passage, reveals that
giving is a work of
God's grace in a person's heart. And it is clear that what God is wanting is for His people to give
of their own accord. He does not want them to give
in obedience to a command. That would be LAW! He wants His people to allow His
grace to work in their hearts, and
give freely.
Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, drives a nail in the coffin of tithing. It is buried forever along with circumcision and
every other aspect of Old Testament Law.
2Cor_9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
God no longer wants His children to pay under compulsion, but to give cheerfully. It is impossible for the requirement of paying the tithe to remain if God says that our giving is not under compulsion.
If you owe it, you are under compulsion to pay it. The very act of paying tithes creates an act of "necessity" and 2 Cor 9:7, says "not grudgingly, or of necessity".
You cannot have it both ways.
You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that you are not to act out of necessity, or under compulsion -- and then out of the other side of your mouth say that God requires you to pay tithes.
Paul does "urge" the church several times to be "liberal" (generous) in their giving.
But generosity is a foreign concept to the law of tithing. A tithe is 10 percent, no more and no less. You cannot be generous and be under the law of tithes, (whether one of the three OT laws of tithing or all 3 of them). But, today's preachers say that is where "offerings" come in.
But that is not right. Not in a Biblical sense, anyway. The offerings of the Bible in the OT consisted of detailed rituals that were just as much a requirement as was tithing.
God wants us to forget the requirements of the Law.
He wants us to live in response to the working of His grace in our hearts.
"But shouldn't tithing be the starting place? Shouldn't it be the minimum?"
That would be like saying, "Shouldn't circumcision be the starting place?" "Shouldn't circumcision be the minimum?"
I think if this were true, the New Testament would have stated it, somewhere,
just once.
The requirement of tithing has
kept God's people in slavery to the Law and has kept them from growing in God's grace.
Also, the offering that Paul and his associates collected was a ministry of the churches. This was part of the ministry of the local churches. This was not some non-church organization. This was not some activity that was outside the ministry of the local churches. It was a vital part of the ministry of these churches.
I point this out because there would be some who would say, "The reason Paul did not appeal to the use of tithes was because this was a special project that was outside the scope of the local church." But, as you can see, that argument does not hold water!
The reason that Paul did not appeal to the use of tithes in this passage -- and in every other passage that he wrote --
is that tithing has no place in the life of a Christian. It is a part of the Old Covenant that has been replaced with something better, in the New Covenant.
The New Testament teaches that we are to be led by the Holy Spirit in every area of our lives. That includes the area of giving.
The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of grace", (Heb 10:29).
Tithing is a form of Legalism that must be opposed because
it opens the door to other teachings of legalism in the Church.
Axehead
