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Tithing - "How to" not "whether"

Discussion in 'Christian Finance Forum' started by TJM, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. afaithfulone4u

    afaithfulone4u New Member

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    Greetings,
    Paul gave the churches orders to give their tithes to someone that you trust, to take your weekly set aside amount in keeping with what God has prospered us to the poor saints in Jerusalem according to :
    1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
    KJV
    Rom 15:25-27
    25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
    KJV


    There are three key things here. One is " Poor" two is "Saints" and third is in "Jerusalem".
    Some will argue that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad so this can not mean to those of natural Jerusalem, but is for those of spiritual Jerusalem above.
    However it does mean natural Jerusalem because Romans 15:25 makes it clear that we are indebted to the natural Jews for our salvation and since we have partaken of their spiritual things, that we are to help them with their material needs.
    It does not say to give to the Jews in Jerusalem, but the "Saints" which I believe to be the devout Jews and the believing Jews who are persecuted for their faith and refuse work making the "Poor".

    I would find someone who is of the church and working in Jerusalem that can be trusted to give your funds to, for God is looking at your obedience to give to our debtors and they need your funds. Pray over it that God would tell you where to send it. Many churches keep the collection plate offering for their churches needs but that is not what our tithes are for. Gal. 6:6 is a required offering for our minister's care which is seperate from our tithes. God loves a cheerful and generous giver and He warns us that when we spend all of our treasures on carnal needs and neglect giving for our spiritual food which should far outweight importance in our life, that we shall reap what we sow.
    Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
    8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
    9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
    10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
    KJV

    By you just holding on to your tithes and offerings, you are withholding your own blessings from God. Hope this helps,

    Blessings
     
  2. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    Was the tithe for the priests or for God? Before the Law we see Abraham and Jacob making a tithe to God, but when it is introduced into the Law of Moses the tithe went to the ministry of the Levites.

    I should think the same principle carries over to today. Since many of our pastors and senior ministers perform their task full time (as our pastors do today) it is only fitting that the congregation set aside that tenth for the upkeep of the ministry in all it's facets.
     
  3. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley New Member

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    Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
    Act 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
    Act 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
    Act 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.


    Paul, supplied his needs by working with his hands. You and the church should, by laboring, also support the weak.
     
  4. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    If you want to know "how to tithe", look at the OT. Tithing requires a Temple and a Sacrifice.

    The practice of paying tithes is very ancient: for we find, Gen 14:20, that "Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, king of Salem, at his return from..."
    There were three sorts of tithes to be paid from the people (besides those from the Levites to the priests); (1) To the Levites, for their maintenance, Num 18:21,24; (2) For the Lord's feasts and sacrifices, to be eaten in the place which the Lord should choose to put his name there Deut. 14:22-24; (3) Besides these two, there was to be, every third year, a tithe for the poor, to be eaten in their own dwellings. Deut. 14:28,29"

    Do these things exist to, today? Do we have "Levites" maintaining the Temple sacrifice, or the Lord's feasts and sacrifices or do we only give to the poor every third year?

    In the New Testament, neither Jesus nor the Apostles have commanded anything in this affair of tithes.

    Some pseudo-christian religions today have adopted teachings that are a system of works in which they have duplicated the OT priesthood and sacrifices and major parts of the law in their theology, while many Christian groups have carried over the OT Tithing System, minus the Temple and Sacrifices. They use Malachi's mention of the "storehouse" to mean the Church Building.

    Mal_3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

    I actually heard a preacher tell his congregation once that all their money should not go anywhere else if it has not first come to "this" church, first". And then, he went on to say, "Only after you paid your tithes to this church, then you can give to other causes and that is called your "offerings"".

    Nice tidy little theology to ensure a monthly budget is met. After all, living by faith and depending on God month by month is tedious. And getting a real JOB is even more tedious.

    I am not saying that Believers are not to give, but certainly not by compulsion (law, doctrine) but rather by the Spirit.

    The 5-fold ministry today has become a career path for many just like a worldly job, complete with benefits and retirement.
     
  5. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    Axe, he asked for opinions on how to tithe today, not a critique and insult to his belief. Would you make shipwreck of their faith so you can be right all the time? Quite self centered if that is your goal.
     
  6. SilenceInMotion

    SilenceInMotion New Member

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    Giving money to your church is a good work, but it is not necessary for salvation. My church has many ways with money- you are encouraged to give 10%, but unless you are wealthy, this can be too much. There are also indulgences that can be paid which lessen your time in Purgatory and repent venial sins.
     
  7. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Silly me, and I always thought it was herd for a rich man, now you just right a check.

    23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
     
  8. Rocky Wiley

    Rocky Wiley New Member

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    Hi Axehead,

    You are right about these things, I have heard them also. But you forgot one scripture they use:

    Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

    The church has forgotten that is not about money, it is about saving those that are lost. Until the Pastor becomes a servant rather than a CEO, the church will remain dull or even dead.
     
  9. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    Christ-centered is my goal. Tithing is self-centered and not Christ-centered. It is false teaching that encourages one who may have begun in the Spirit to perfect the rest in the flesh. I will not flatter a man and pat him on the back while he is in error.

    Hi Rocky,

    I call that "FEAR PREACHING". It is despicable and takes advantage of the weak in faith. Many living on fixed income are afraid of paying their bills or taking care of themselves first. Here are some examples of "Fear Preaching".


    FEAR PREACHING: Heard from the "Pulpit".
    1. The tithe is the Lord's. (So keep your hands off it)
    2. If you don't tithe you are a God-robber. (Robbers are bad)
    3. A curse will come on you if you don't tithe. (Pure fear)
    4. Tithing rebukes the devourer. (Devil is gonna get you because you missed your payment. Forget about your landowner and paying your mortgage, the devil is worse).
    5. The tithe is the connection to the covenant. (No tithe and you are not in covenant)
    6. The tithe redeems the other 90-percent. (No tithe and you lose the other 90%)
    7. Tithing qualifies you to receive more from God. (No tithe and you don't receive squat).
    8. Tithing puts God first in your life. (No tithe and you are not a committed christian).
    9. If you don't tithe, God will take that 10-percent from you. (Ouch! Take, take, take)
    10. If everyone tithed, churches would have plenty of money. (It's your fault that churches are impoverished. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. More blameshifting, condemnation.
    11. Heaven will be shut up against you if you don't tithe. (Ouch again!! Please God, I have to pay my bills or else they will throw me out on the street)
    12. Miracle testimonies prove that tithing is God's will. (You have no miracles in your life because God is not getting your payment).
    The "Giving" Theology of the Religious System
    Law based = fear motivated = PAYMENT
    Grace based = love motivated = GIVING

    Axehead
     
  10. theophilus

    theophilus Member

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    The first thing you should do is ask God to show you what he wants you to do since the money actually belongs to him. It is possible that he might want you to give your money to some other Christian organization rather than a local church.

    Regarding the second option: the Bible says that the person who is taught in the word should share good things with the one who teaches. If you are learning from a church you are attending but are not a member of you should give something to the support of the that church but not necessarily the whole tithe.
     
  11. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="theophilus" data-cid="178987" data-time="1356718988"><p>
    The first thing you should do is ask God to show you what he wants you to do since the money actually belongs to him. It is possible that he might want you to give your money to some other Christian organization rather than a local church.<br />
    <br />
    Regarding the second option: the Bible says that the person who is taught in the word should share good things with the one who teaches. If you are learning from a church you are attending but are not a member of you should give something to the support of the that church but not necessarily the whole tithe.</p></blockquote>

    Are you aware of what it means to be led by the Spirit? You don't really have to consult with man on this matter. All you are and all you have belongs to The Lord. Ask Him to lead you. And make sure He has your heart, first. Money is only a concern to Him if we love it, if it is an idol in our heart. Also, be prepared in that He may lead you to give to an individual. Contrary to popular opinion, the Lord has no rules for giving except that you give cheerfully that which you purpose in your heart to give. And this is done in relationship with Him.

    He doesn't always lead us to give only to tax deductible orgs. Often, it is directly to people.

    Basically, get with God and He will speak to you
     
  12. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    Can somebody explain to me why wanting to keep the money you've earned is greedy, while demanding someone else give you theirs isn't?

    Beware religious con artists who create rules and laws of benefit to few but themselves.

    "The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes. Protestant clergy don't believe in anything except their well-being and office".
    - Adolph Hitler

    I do not believe that our clergy, who have abandoned preaching the gospel of Christ, ceased speaking out in matters of moral integrity and who have become political chameleons to appease our debauched society and government, deserve the resources we grant them.

    "There's a lot of money to be made in the God business. Why can't you understand that (the ministry) is just a job?"
    - chairman of the commission of ministries, Episcopal diocese of Rochester, NY (autumn 1978)

    The above words were spoken to me several decades ago. As an impressionable young man I was eager to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the congregants of the Episcopal church. Instead I was told that I would not be admitted to Holy Orders in that church unless I recanted my faith "and drop all this Jesus business".

    If you think I gave so much as ten cents to that church after the experience you are dreaming. If you think I will write one check without deeply examining the motivations and actions of any given church leadership you are sadly mistaken. If you think I believe anyone else should do so blindly and without misgivings you are twice as fit for hell as the false shepherds you follow.

    I'm not saying one should not give, but that one should know where his money is going, who will benefit from the gift and why it's really being solicited. God may have unlimited resources, but we do not and it is unwise to throw good money after bad (ministry). Use your wallet as a lever to influence church policy. It's the best voting machine ever invented.

    but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
     
  13. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    I like everything you said, except this: "Use your wallet as a lever to influence church policy."

    If we don't like to be manipulated, then we should not turn around and use our money to manipulate or control, either. We influence others through prayer, living righteously and speaking the truth, not by employing their manipulative devices.

    But that's just me hollering from "outside the camp". Heb 13:13
     
  14. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    the word teaches that we are to tithe. what people from the church use your tithe for God will hold them responsible. if you don't like what a church does with your money then i suggest two things. first either go find a place that you can be satisfied tithing to or second if you are just too busy or lazy to find a place then you will be stuck with where you are at. the second option sound mean but the word teaches that if we really want something that we will find time for it. so you are the one that needs to determine how important finding a place to tithe is to you.

    axhead your second option is not part of the tithe but is above and beyond the tithe. otherwise you are robbing God's storehouse.

    God bless
     
  15. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    And where does the Scripture teach the Christian to tithe? Please show me where Jesus and the Apostles teach this.

    The OFFERINGS of Malachi are not money but rather the sacrifices which the NT declares have ended.
     
  16. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    just a question first. weren't you the one that started that we were to tithe? don't you know the answer to this question on tithing? if i show you where it tells us to tithe are you going to consider the matter with and open mind or are you trying to just stick with your beliefs? there is no reason to show people the truth if they really don't want to believe.

    God bless
     
  17. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    No, I was not the one that started this. Tithing is a "payment" system and we are not under any payment system in the NT. I have considered what the scriptures teach with an open mind and am open to new arguments if you have any. Tithing in the OT has to do with the Temple and the Sacrifices. These no longer exist. Today, the Lord own 100% of us and all that we have and we walk by the Spirit. We are under no law except the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ and as such, we give as a result of our relationship with the Lord and there is no percentage tied to it. Tithing as it is taught today, is a law.

    THE NT IS TOTALLY SILENT ABOUT TITHING.

    Also, since the New Covenant did away with the office of the "Priest" and because the New Covenant did away with the practice of sacrifices and offerings, it would be impossible for the the Old Testament law of "tithes and offerings" -- as they were commonly understood -- to be a part of the the practice of NT Christians. Therefore any law of "tithing" would have to be redefined and explained. The practice of "Tithes and Offerings", required the active ministry of the Levitical priesthood, the sacrifices of animals on the altar and many other aspects of Temple worship.


    The Old Testament requirement of tithing is definitely a "paying" situation, not a "giving" one. Even the "Offerings" were required. They were not "offerings" in the sense of a spontaneous desire and decision to impart some of your assets to someone else. The OT Offerings were specific requirements of the people that had to be fulfilled according to very specific, detailed rituals carried out by the Levitical Priesthood in the context of Temple worship.

    Everyone agrees that you pay something that you owe. It is a responsibility and a requirement. It is not a gift. On the other hand, it is equally true that a gift is not a requirement. A gift is something that you give that you didn't have to give. It is not given because you must. It is not given out of necessity. It is not given under compulsion. Otherwise, it would not be a gift. It would be a payment.

    Let's look at II Corinthians 8 and 9:

    Chapter 8

    2Cor_8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
    2Cor_8:2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
    2Cor_8:3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
    2Cor_8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
    2Cor_8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
    2Cor_8:6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
    2Cor_8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
    2Cor_8:8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
    2Cor_8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
    ...
    2Cor_8:19 And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

    Chapter 9


    2Cor_9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
    2Cor_9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
    2Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
    2Cor_9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
    2Cor_9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
    2Cor_9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
    2Cor_9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
    2Cor_9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
    2Co_9:14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
    2Cor_9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

    These passages of scripture are a perfect illustration of the fact that the new covenant is a covenant of grace,not a covenant of law. The Apostle Paul, in writing this passage, reveals that giving is a work of God's grace in a person's heart. And it is clear that what God is wanting is for His people to give of their own accord. He does not want them to give in obedience to a command. That would be LAW! He wants His people to allow His grace to work in their hearts, and give freely.

    Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, drives a nail in the coffin of tithing. It is buried forever along with circumcision and every other aspect of Old Testament Law.


    2Cor_9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    God no longer wants His children to pay under compulsion, but to give cheerfully. It is impossible for the requirement of paying the tithe to remain if God says that our giving is not under compulsion. If you owe it, you are under compulsion to pay it. The very act of paying tithes creates an act of "necessity" and 2 Cor 9:7, says "not grudgingly, or of necessity".

    You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say out of one side of your mouth that you are not to act out of necessity, or under compulsion -- and then out of the other side of your mouth say that God requires you to pay tithes.

    Paul does "urge" the church several times to be "liberal" (generous) in their giving. But generosity is a foreign concept to the law of tithing. A tithe is 10 percent, no more and no less. You cannot be generous and be under the law of tithes, (whether one of the three OT laws of tithing or all 3 of them). But, today's preachers say that is where "offerings" come in. But that is not right. Not in a Biblical sense, anyway. The offerings of the Bible in the OT consisted of detailed rituals that were just as much a requirement as was tithing.

    God wants us to forget the requirements of the Law. He wants us to live in response to the working of His grace in our hearts.

    "But shouldn't tithing be the starting place? Shouldn't it be the minimum?"

    That would be like saying, "Shouldn't circumcision be the starting place?" "Shouldn't circumcision be the minimum?"

    I think if this were true, the New Testament would have stated it, somewhere, just once.

    The requirement of tithing has kept God's people in slavery to the Law and has kept them from growing in God's grace.

    Also, the offering that Paul and his associates collected was a ministry of the churches. This was part of the ministry of the local churches. This was not some non-church organization. This was not some activity that was outside the ministry of the local churches. It was a vital part of the ministry of these churches.

    I point this out because there would be some who would say, "The reason Paul did not appeal to the use of tithes was because this was a special project that was outside the scope of the local church." But, as you can see, that argument does not hold water!

    The reason that Paul did not appeal to the use of tithes in this passage -- and in every other passage that he wrote -- is that tithing has no place in the life of a Christian. It is a part of the Old Covenant that has been replaced with something better, in the New Covenant.

    The New Testament teaches that we are to be led by the Holy Spirit in every area of our lives. That includes the area of giving. The Holy Spirit is "the Spirit of grace", (Heb 10:29).

    Tithing is a form of Legalism that must be opposed because it opens the door to other teachings of legalism in the Church.

    Axehead
     
  18. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    I really appreciate your response. now let we show you something. you say we are no longer under the law but under grace right? thus the commands of the old testament no longer apply right? now what does paul say about this? the law was given so we could recognize what was sinful(gal 3:10). grace was given so we would no longer be under the curse of sin(rom 6:14). grace does not cancel out the law but compliments the law(matt 5:17-48). Jesus came not to negate the law but in all actuality he made the law more strict. it is because of grace that are able to conquer sin and be made righteous before God. the law for the church is to show us what we need to change in our lives to allow us to have a closer relationship with God. matt 5:18 shows us not even the minutest part of the law shall perish until everything that God has declared happens. thus the old testament commands have not been declared null and void. do you agree with my thinking so far?
     
  19. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    Do you preach physical circumcision? Do you preach temple sacrifices? If the tithing law was to be continued, why didn't the Apostles mention that to the Gentiles in Acts 15 (The Jerusalem Council)? Where is physical circumcision which is part of the law still preached in the NT?

    Does your Bible say that "we are not under the law, but under grace"? Mine does.

    Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Does circumcision in the flesh make you righteous before God. Does obeying the principles of tithing which are connected to the sacrifices and the temple make you righteous before God?


    Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


    You are really going to have to develop for me why we are under the law of tithing, since Romans 6:15 says that "we are not under the law".
     
  20. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    nowhere that i know of had i said we were under the law. i said we are still to obey the law. even Jesus gave us two commandments that encompasses all other commandments. to love God and love your neighbor. these are old testaments commandments that Jesus told us to obey. so if these two are still valid then there are others too. btw

    physical circumcision is symbolic to being circumcised of the heart. but yes in answer to your question we are to follow the commandment to be circumcised(of the heart).

    do you still have questions about what i am referring too? if not i will go on an explain more but i need to know you understand where i am at first before i go on.
     
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